is Evil real?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by maya, Mar 29, 2003.

  1. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Hi Sam and welcome to CR. :)
     
  2. Sam K

    Sam K Baha'i :)

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    thanks!
     
  3. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Oh it's real.... realllllly real, be afraid, very afraid... lol.

    But anyway, there is evil and many try to place this onto a name, humans just love that power... that supreme, divine power... To point the finger and blame someone else for their screw ups. Or even if it isn't there screw up and they can't explain it!! QUICK BLAME SOMEONE!

    As they say; "He who smiles in a time of problems, hath someone to blame."

    So why not blame this on Satan... Oh there is poverty in the world and starving and crap because Satan made it happen..... O RLY!? No there is all of this because mankind made it happen... not Satan. Man is responsible for all the errors and troubles of the world... It all comes down to our own personal greed... and other traits of being a failure of a race.

    I feel like, you know we are all little children in a class room... I can then get a chalk eraser and bounce it off the teachers face and simply plead "Satan made me do it..." Where is the sense? Is this violence because of Satan? Or because I am a cheeky little hellraiser.... A sexy one at that..

    --EDIT--

    Also... As I was saying before, we are just a creature with too much intelligence for our own good, so we know of death... And this scares most. I don't want to die!! There is so much to live for blah blah blah. So we come up with religion as a comfort blanket, a saftey net... But then as I was saying we love to blame others and hate to have the finger pointed at us. So all you divine self righteous people here... You're as corrupt as me or the next man... You like things that our bad for you and most of you without wishing to admit it like things for example such as porn. 0o0o cheeky cheeky. But it isn't your fault right! It's that darn devil, Satan.... Blame him! I feel as if we have this way to protect our fears from death and we also have this protection from our own flaws and "fleshy desires." As some others said evil is just a simple choice made by man or by whatever other being. It isn't fueled by Satan. Simply our free will and our opinion...
     
  4. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    I an bit in agreement with you on this one. I find many trying to uncover demons under every rock and every disease. They try to cast Satan from their finances, their health, their children. They blame different "spirits' on their own shortcomings with "spirits" of envy, jealousy, lust flying all around us and we must be "delivered" from them. No, we just need to obey God.

    Now I might believe that their is some dark spiritual being that would tempt us with things, as he did Jesus, but we act according to our own desires and wants. But we must be accountable for our own actions. Sin against God or against our neighbor has to do our rebellion against the standards God has established and our own disbedience to follow them.

    If you are going to cast out demons, start with yourself.
     
  5. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Very touching and in ways I guess Inspiring Dondi. ;)

    I think the other thing to ponder... to dwell in thought on... Evil, surley this would be pure... Pure, evil.... It would be an element that had identifying traits to it. Yet to you or someone else [A] could be really evil, yet I find [A] beautiful... I think is really evil and cold hearted, yet you may see nothing wrong with Wouldn't Evil be seen as evil to all?

    -EDIT-
    Also if we go by the definition of the bible for evil... Surley that means freedom is evil? That is how it comes across to me. Satan wanted to march to the beat of his own step... and god didn't like this and called this being evil. Well god created this being, and "blessed" it with free will, why would it strike him as a suprise or offend him that this being wanted to be his own leader? When my child Lucifer (no relation.. heh) Is a man, I shall see him as a man, he may choose what he will, I do not want him to stay constantly by side thriving for my approval, I want him to live and be free.
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Personal responsibility, tis what it boils down to. Enough of blaming this or that for our ills, or even others...

    Evil, Satan is a lack mentality...get behind me satan, negativity leave my words...this is my doing, my creation, my deciding I am not connected to source.

    When you close one valve the other opens and fills the void...free will.
     
  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Wil, you are kind of admitting that humans are to blame there, but snook Satan's name back in? So Satan is just a pet name you put on the "evil" choices of free will men make? Or you truly believe the fallen one Satan is this being misleading people and being the puppet master of mankind? Simply pulling the strings....
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    To me remember the cartoons with the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other...throw the tomato, don't throw the tomato, oh it is gonna be good, no it isn't the right thing to do...

    Obvioiusly these are parts of our psyche battling for control, little icons make it fun and clear what is going on...Jesus said it as, 'Get behind me Satan' driving that thought from his mind, the thoughts that cloud righteous judgement.

    Nope don't believe in no critter...
     
  9. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    One other question, thanks for your replies Wil, do you seriously hear the voices of the lil angel and the lil devil?
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Hear the voices...no.

    But I've had a whole life of listening to that part of myself and acting accordingly. Many a drunk does not have a problem with alcohol...in his mind, others have problems with his drinkng and subsequent behaviour...this is little devil has a direct link to the brain, bend elbow, open mouth, drink, repeat. I never heard anything.

    Then somewhere along the line, maybe, a realization comes that there is another way and the brain starts 'hearing' the little angel on the other shoulder. Doesn't stop the drinking but gives one second thoughts...maybe there is an issue.

    Then with grace, another step occurs and a decision not to is made...and both little guys are battling for control.

    Thieves, alcoholics, rapists, murderers, vandals, terrorists, whatever...

    My world view is in a cartoon....that is my life. I'm surprised the little angel didn't go horse shouting, odds are they had to continually supply new recruits as I wore them out.

    Step back, did I ever physcially hear..no...did I ever suddenly have a knowing, a knew understanding, in an instant...yes.
     
  11. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    hmm interesting :D Thanks though, gives me things to ponder over.
     
  12. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Let's talk biblically, since you bring it up.

    "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." - John 8:31-36

    Sure, Satan marched to the beat of his drum. But he did so against God.

    The Laws set forth by God were not meant to impinge our freedom, but rather establish boundaries with which we can enjoy life in a proper framework. We we disobey God, we are venturing outside that framework.

    We set boundaries for our children to follow: don't play in the street, come home before curfew, call us and check in at a certain time, don't drink and drive. Why? Not because we want to spoil their fun, but because we are concerned for their wellbeing and safety. So we set these rules out of love.

    Though raised as a Christian, I can tell you that I went down the primrose path and partied hardy, knowing full well I went against God and against my parents. I rebelled for a while. Wanted to be free. Looking back, I find myself fortunate that I didn't get myself killed on a number of occasions, not to mention get tossed in jail for DUI or drug use. I had several run-ins with the police that could have gone south quickly. Nothing real severe, but nonetheless reckless.

    My return to God came because of a realization that I wasn't doing anything real productive or satisfying in my life. Oh, I did have fun times, I won't kid you there, but I started skidding down a road that I knew was going to lead to more and more trouble, depression, and confusion. As I reached out to God, He help me change things around. Through Christ, He brought me out of the miry clay that I was wallowing in.

    End of testamony, now back to your regularly scheduled program.

    So for me, evil is rebellion against oneself and the value that God has for you. Sin tends to swallow a person up and attached itself to you. It's easy to slip into. However, the consequences are harsh. And I'm noyt just talking about the unpleasant propect of Hell, but merely the fact that getting caought up in the freewill of your own desires that run counter to God will lead you to a path that will change you into something God never intended you to become.

    Tragically, you become your sin. And the only way to change that is for God to change you back from the evil in your heart and restore you to freedom of His way and not our own.

    I don't find God's laws restricting at all, but as I learn to obey God, my life has become more stable and more satisfying that what I tried to seek in my own accord.

    Freedom in finding that your life is at peace and that there is a love from God that is expressing itself in me which helps me to do good to people around me. God put a change in my heart that tends more toward the good rather than bad. It isn't any kind of love that I could have produces in my own spirit, but a commpassion being generated driven from God.

    I'm still tempted. And sometimes I fall. But then I know I'm wrong and remember being right, and thus turn back to God to help me overcome that bad. I seek for that same peace that I'd experienced before and that is what keeps me going.






     
  13. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    lol, you were itching!!! to bring the bible in right? ;)

    1. That sounds like what my parents would tell me when I was six..... We are adults... We are responsible for our own situations I don't need a god to tell me how to walk.

    2. That is called youth... Hell, everyone... well most go though recklessness... I look back in fond memory of my times, I think I ended up a little worse off than you but hell If I went back I'd do it again.... fun times.

    3. Evil = freedom from god. That is what you're saying.

    4. I do good to people too... So the opposite of evil would be obviously good. And you can only be good, if you worship jah? But I am good.... Although some would call me wicked...

    5. You "fall" because of Satan? Tempting you? Or you fall because you're simply human, and sometimes tire of the demands of christianity?
     
  14. JosephM

    JosephM Well-Known Member

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    Is Evil real?

    re·al 1 (r[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]l, r[​IMG]l)
    adj. 1. a. Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects; a real illness.
    b. True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal: real people, not ghosts; a film based on real life.
    c. Of or founded on practical matters and concerns: a recent graduate experiencing the real world for the first time.


    Well, from reading the posts here, Evil cannot be real because it is based on perceptions which are conflicting and not verifiable existence or agreement. Does Evil even exist? Only by defining it so. In that sense it is still alleged since the definition cannot be agreed upon. Each person defines his world differently, and might I add, seems to think secretly that his way or view is more 'correct' than the other. Therefore, what is 'real' is based on the experiences of the one experiencing and still subject to perceptions that are alleged as 'real'. This makes them mere illusions.


    Can a God who is 'infinite love' create that which is contrary to his nature? It seems not. Therefore Evil can only be a creation of the mind that resides in illusion (the non-real) seen by but separate from God. Just my 2 cents to add.

    Love in Christ,
    JM
     
  15. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    lol, you were itching!!! to bring the bible in right? ;)

    It do contain the words of life.

    1. That sounds like what my parents would tell me when I was six..... We are adults... We are responsible for our own situations I don't need a god to tell me how to walk.

    Evidently, not every adult is responsible for their actions, else our jails be empty. Not everyone receives the strong moral upbringing, that enables us to walk on our own. But if you are content on just walking, well. I want someone who will teach me how to fly. ;)

    2. That is called youth... Hell, everyone... well most go though recklessness... I look back in fond memory of my times, I think I ended up a little worse off than you but hell If I went back I'd do it again.... fun times.

    Fun times, yes. The temptation is present, still. But I'm having better times now getting high on life.

    3. Evil = freedom from god. That is what you're saying.

    Evil = Rebellion against God.

    4. I do good to people too... So the opposite of evil would be obviously good. And you can only be good, if you worship jah? But I am good.... Although some would call me wicked...

    What is worship, but drawing upon God for your life and receiving the means to even do the good that marks the high life I mentioned. It's not just a matter of obeying God, but establishing a reltionship with Someone who can so enhance every other relationship you have, with you spouse, your children, your parents, your friends, your family, your aquaintences. When you find God in different aspects of your life, it makes a difference.


    5. You "fall" because of Satan? Tempting you? Or you fall because you're simply human, and sometimes tire of the demands of christianity?

    I fall because I am a sinner. Satan is just there for peer pressure. Any sin I commit is a disruption of the relationship I have with God. It's like any wrong you do to another person. If I have an argument with my wife, for example, and I am in the wrong, my pride doesn't allow me to relinquish my ground. But then I discover how hurt she's become. So then I have to realize what a sh*t I'd been and humbly ask forgiveness and hope she accepts. When she comes around and forgives me, then we make up and hug and all is well again.

    Thank God, He is more patient to me than my wife when I screw up.

    Evil is contrary to love.
     
  16. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Evil is beauty... It is in the eye of the beholder. ;)
     
  17. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

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    Never said evil was unattractive, else why would people flock to it? But the beauty doesn't last forever.
     
  18. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    No sorry that was a little mixed up, what I meant was; “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” And evil is exactly like this. You’re evil would be different to mine, (obviously you believe evil is a rebellion of god, I believe in no god so What I see as evil is on a different level to you.) mine would be different to bob’s and bob’s different to sue’s and so on….
     
  19. cavalier

    cavalier Well-Known Member

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    and Rita too
     
  20. Francis king

    Francis king Well-Known Member

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    well, I think that evil, by itself, of itself, does not exist, after all, evil is a concept, and a concept cannot be worked without some form of intelligence to shape it, mould it, breathe life into it... is a dog evil..? is a cat evil..? a bird of the air, a fish of the sea..? no, they do what they have to do to live and survive... evil only exists in the minds of men (and women too) there is no divine evil, just screwed up or callous, uncaring individuals, who commit their grevious acts becuase they want to...
     

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