Freewill vs Predestination

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Silas, Dec 21, 2006.

  1. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wish!!!!
     
  2. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quahom

    No it isn't. The Book of John is good news to people who haven't heard the good news. In fact Silas, the four Gospels' sole purpose is to present glad tidings to those who know nothing about the savior.

    I said 1 John and not John, Q.


    I have no idea where you get this "testing personal faith" from. How the hell can a non believer test a faith they do not have? What you think the Bible is your own personal "Staples Easy" button? It is a new revelation for non believers and a reminder for believers, nothing more or less.

    I get "test yourself to see if you're in the faith" from 2 Cor. 13:5. It is the constant cry in the Bible and it admonishes us to "make our calling and eleciton sure" (
    [SIZE=-1]2 Peter 1:10). We dont want to be luke warm and think we are saved only to find out when we see the Lord that we were never his. [/SIZE]

    We test ourselves, within ourselves, not through the Good News of Christ via the Gospels.

    We test ourselves by what the word of God says and nothing else.

    Sorry sir, but you are starting to sound goofy, and awfully familiar...

    OK. "Make your calling and election sure," bro.
     
  3. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dondi [​IMG]
    Can Christians be sinless?

    Me too. But then that's the thing, we are still subjected to temptations and we thus fall. Why do we do this is we are born again?

    (I'm asking these questions to lead to my point.)

    By the way, I have read I John and I read it again for this conversation. And I agree that this is how we can know if we have been born again, but I also have some contentions with how you are reading it. I'd be happy to discuss them after we are done with the current line of reasoning.
     
  4. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dondi

    Me too. But then that's the thing, we are still subjected to temptations and we thus fall. Why do we do this is we are born again?

    You know Dondi, I believe the reason we still sin is because we have two natures that war against each other (Romans 7 talks about this). No one can serve two masters. Either we'll serve the old nature and become slaves to sin and satan, or we'll be transformed by the renewing of our mind, be changed into Jesus' image, and thus be slaves of Christ and of righteouness.


    By the way, I have read I John and I read it again for this conversation. And I agree that this is how we can know if we have been born again, but I also have some contentions with how you are reading it. I'd be happy to discuss them after we are done with the current line of reasoning.

    Sure!
     
  5. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    3
    So, because we (as Christians) are subject to temptations and fall into sin, then there is the dire possibility to become slaves to sin and Satan?
     
  6. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0

    Some Christians believe that a believer can lose his faith and be unborn again - again, but I dont. As I understand salvation, once a person is born agian, God will for His own glory cause them to grow in santifaction and end in glorification. It doesnt mean that we'll be perfect, it just means we'll be growing in the direction of perfection.
     
  7. Dondi

    Dondi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    3

    At what point does one know that he is saved? Is it after saying the "sinners" prayer?
     
  8. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not really a fan of that mantra (sinner's prayer), especially when people asks someone to repeat it before ever hearing the means by which God saves - namely, the gospel. The sinner's prayer is as much effective as a lawyer telling a husband who cheated on his wife to say the following: "Wife, I'm sorry for what I did." Then the husband repeating what he heard in front of his wife, "wife, I'm sorry for what I did." According to the Bible, there's no "sinner's prayer" that leads to salvation. To be saved, a person must Repent and Trust in Jesus. Thats it. True faith leads to repentence and when that occurs a person is born agian. All that said, let me just say this so you wont think me crazy: I dont deny that if a person says the "Sinner's prayer" that they could be saved. But, the reason they are saved isnt because of the words they said. Rather, it is because God saw their heart and saw that the person repented and had saving faith (trust) in Jesus. Again, when someone repents and places their trust in Christ, they are born again and thus begin the process of santification, which ends in glorification.
     
  9. pattimax

    pattimax Somewhat returning

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,204
    Likes Received:
    0
    I always thought a "sinners prayer" lets others know what is in your heart. Only God can see in your heart.
     
  10. aburaees

    aburaees Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    0
    Am I to understand that in light of this verse, anyone who still sins has not yet been born again?

    .
     
  11. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, my problem isnt so much with the "sinner's prayer" in and of itself. My problem consist of people taking the unregenerated sinner through this montra of a prayer, when the sinner doesnt even know why he/she is coming to Christ. I hear so many gospel-less presentations, and at the end of their gospel-less sermon, they ask people to invite Jesus into their heart. Thats crazy! When leading sinners to the Lord is it our duty to do it biblically: Present the Law of God in order that they may both know and understand what sin is and why Jesus died. The law must proceed grace (the gospel) for it to make sense and actually be good news. All that we need to do when leading sinners to Christ is give them the Biblical gospel and the Spirit of God does His job from there.
     
  12. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah. That scripture is reiterated all through 1 John and it says if we walk in sin, we are not in Christ, but children of the devil. Its not saying that we wont sin, but that we will not live in sin or practice sin or have habitual sins, if we are really saved. Why? Because God promised that if He saves us, we will grow in holiness.
     
  13. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hi aburaees--

    This is from the NIV translation study notes: "John is not asserting sinless perfection (see 1:8-10; 2:1), but explaining that the believer's life is characterized not by sin but by doing what is right." (p.1909).

    1John 1:8-10 reads: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar."

    1John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world."

    Hope this helps.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  14. Cage

    Cage Spirit Guided

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0

    I absolutely Love 1 John, lol! Thank you InLove for sharing that, I think it was a needed addition...


    ~James~
     
  15. Cage

    Cage Spirit Guided

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0

    Silas, I have to agree with you here, bro. . . .The Spirit does the work, we are just mouthpeices.


    ~James~
     
  16. Silas

    Silas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    896
    Likes Received:
    0
    amen!
     
  17. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    I believe the Bible does advise that one can throw away salvation.

    Here is where I get this idea:
    (Ezekiel 18:21-24 NIV) [21] "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. [22] None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. [23] Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
    [24] "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.


    (Matthew 24:10-13 NIV) [10] At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [11] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


    (1 Timothy 1:18-19 NIV) [18] Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, [19] holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.


    (1 Timothy 6:20-21 NIV) [20] Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, [21] which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.


    (2 Peter 3:17 NIV) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

    (John 15:6 NIV) If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.



    Oh, sorry I mis-understood your point a few posts up. I apologize.

    v/r

    Joshua
     
  18. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    9,437
    Likes Received:
    3
    That's a load of crap...... Ugh my eyes are watering... such a strong aroma of self righteousness coming off this one...

    I know many GOOD people... You don't need to have your god to be a good person. You and all other christians are not better than me or non christians...
     
  19. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    9,906
    Likes Received:
    5
    There are 6 billion potentially good people. There were 6 billion potentially good people up to this point in time. According to Christ, "good" isn't good enough. The Jews in Palestine were "good people", 2000 years ago, yet the man called Jesus walked among them saying "trust in me"...must have been a reason since His message has lasted 2000 years...

    And you are absolutely correct 17th. No Christian is "better" than anyone else... just forgiven, if we accept it. :eek:

    v/r

    Joshua
     
  20. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    9,437
    Likes Received:
    3
    Why isn't good, good enough? Why isn't just being who you are good enough? Why do you have to change who you are... What is the point in the "free will" given if you have favourtisim for certain people that choose one thing than the other. I have and never will get the point when you talk of christianity and free will... cause it is pointless. My dog has it's own free will to choose to do what it want's.. It runs out into the back gardens, then comes back in... Oh my! It's jumped on the couch with muddy paws... is it the dogs fault? Or my fault? That it has done this... I could of trainined it that, that was bad and continue to train it, so it becomes a function an automatic "programme" in the dogs head that makes it avoid the couch.... The dog isn't as intelligent as me... Apparently... So it doesn't know any better. Why should it be punished? I think I am waffling on into a void lol... Gonna go have a smoke break... meh.
     

Share This Page