heres a interesting question if you think about it,

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by clearamericanboy, Mar 28, 2007.

  1. clearamericanboy

    clearamericanboy New Member

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    How does religion effect politics,.......

    and how does politics effect religion,.......

    they both really go hand in hand no matter in what way you look at it,

    just to throw that out there.............
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Dr. Hagelin (former candidate for the Natural Law Party) and Neal Donald Walsch (Conversations with G-d) made a good video, "Spirituality and Politics" a little different than religion and politics...but a good watch.
     
  3. sara[h]ng

    sara[h]ng New Member

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    My answer is 'negatively'. History shows us that they should not go hand in hand. Not that that's stopping the current US administration...
     
  4. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    Right you are Sara ! But separately they form the underpinnings of Western Civilization, all the way back to the Greeks and Romans. The trick is to unify politically, while maintaining individuality and diversification when it comes to religion.

    The ancients solved this dilemma by having a diversity of Gods. We have messed up the system over time by having a majority of us insisting upon the notion that there is only one G-d and that's it.

    Amenhotep I ( I believe ) tried monotheism out on the ancient Egyptians about 2,000 bce I believe. It all worked so well that all images of him and his family were destroyed by his successor(s), and all mention of his royal works were eradicated... as well as some of his significant public works.

    No wonder I tested out as a neopagan on a poll thread here.

    flow....;)
     
  5. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Yes, but Flow, you probably know that the Akenaton cult is alive and well today ... and that it gets a huge interest among a lot of New Agers. No small wonder - since many maintain that he showed up later as Pythagoras, Balthazar (Wise Man #2), Nagarjuna, and a chief Mahatma for the Theosophists!

    The insistence on One God, as well as the idea of a theocracy, might both be misapplications ... or premature expressions ... of a future condition in which religion and politics will meet, and mutually embrace and affirm each other.

    Currently we do not have political unity, even within our own respective countries - the U.S., Great Britain, Australia, etc. - much less between or among all of them. Nor do we have a harmonious religious plurality, based on such principles as Goodwill, and the Respect of one person - group, nation, and religion - for another.

    I think we can learn a lot by examing situations, countries, periods of world history, cultures, religions, and governments where these ideals did work out - even for a short while - or where they are working out, or are being tried.

    Even myths, legends, fables ... such as those of the lost continent of Atlantis, and the City of the Golden Gates ... hold a lesson for us. Plato taught this, and wrote The Republic, not simply to provide material for college philosophy lectures, but surely to help advance us one significant step closer toward Utopia.

    And More wasn't no crackhead either, eh? :p {Dear God, what am I saying! `A Man for All Seasons' remains one of the greatest movies I've ever seen! Scofield is wonderful in that film, and it also commemorates the passing of a dear friend of mine, on a more personal note. I could never tire of it, nor of pondering what life will be like for Humanity once we have fully incarnated More's and Plato's Ideal ...}

    Peace, and Namaskar,

    ~andrew
     
  6. clearamericanboy

    clearamericanboy New Member

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    i hate how in america the liberals are all about seperation of church and state, but in all actuallity it makes no sense thats basicly biting they hand that feeds you, ...." hello there would be no state with out church"....... the church is what founded the whole government, soo how they wanna remove God from everything, is compleatly obserd and thats why america in a sense has been spiraling downword and i dont think it would be suprising if america is struggeling economicly and politicaly and survie as a nation in about 40 yrs a whole lot more than we already are, but hey thats just my opinion.....
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Namaste Clear American Boy,

    Wonderful to have you thinking and posting!

    Let's see can you define which liberals you hate that are about seperation of church and state?

    Can you define which Church founded the government?

    Have you read Madison's Notes? Our Government was founded on religious freedom...Congress shall pass no law...

    Seems our number on liberal, President Bill Clinton attended church many a Sunday...[​IMG]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Bill Clinton leaves church holding a bible[/FONT]

    It'll be valuable for you to continue to explore this wonderful world of ours...
     
  8. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Don't forget the peanut farmer from Jawja, a devout Baptist too, as I recall. :)

    And yeah, freedom of religion means any religion! ;)
     
  9. clearamericanboy

    clearamericanboy New Member

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    true was on religious freedom but it was founded off of christianity, and not just any specific liberal but liberals as a whole, sure some are worth wile to listin to and everything but as for bill clinton, i know many people who attend church but arent true christians, as a christian it calls to belike Jesus and represent christianity, and judging by how bill ran the office i diden't see Jesus, sure everyone makes mistakes and sins, but he made alot of mistakes, big mistakes,................. and he might be a christian, but,i dont see it in him, as far as a political standpoint.
     
  10. clearamericanboy

    clearamericanboy New Member

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    but its not like the pilgrims came over here with out any religious backing, they were christians and also you have to remember they dident just come over here for religious freedom, also political freedom, they knew that it was the best way to get out from the kings direct rule, wich is one of the very big reasons the came here, but they set up the government off christianity
     
  11. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Hi Andrew--welcome back. (I'm glad you are here, because I have had some questions forming for a while, and I believe you may be the one I should ask. I'll try to put them together soon, that is if you will be hanging out for a while this time? ;) :))

    I find Thomas Moore to be a very interesting historical entity. I actually saw that movie for the first time recently, and I have to say that I was deeply touched and quite inspired by that story.

    CAB--welcome to CR. I am a Christian--you will just have to take my word for that, unless you don't want to, of course. President Clinton is a human being. So are you, right? You both claim to be Christians. I'd say that it can be a mistake to make the call for another since, according to Christian Scripture, we reap what we sow.

    And...I just noticed what board we are on here, so I guess that is all I will say about that here, at least for now.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  12. clearamericanboy

    clearamericanboy New Member

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    But also as you claim to be a christian you a have to walk the walk more so
    than just talk the talk, think about it tho at the grammys all those "artists" rappers and such the first thing they do when they get on the podeum is say id like to thank God,............. but then i think to my self, what!? considering all the filth that most of them put out about sex drugs and violence why are you thanking God for that, but its not to say there not a christian but that deffanatly isent walking the walk or talking the talk of a christian for that matter, right?
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Please expand on what in our government is representative of Christianity.

    We are a Democratic Republic. We elect our local leaders by popular vote and our President by the electoral college. Our leaders than make decisions based on what they feel is best for their constituency's (people, businesses, government) interest. On a regular basis we have the opportunity to vote them out. They are free to establish laws, appoint and approve judges, tax us, and enforce laws.

    Now I could find ties to many different religions...but what is 'specifically' Christian in our government; ie, not representative of any other religion?
     
  14. Pathless

    Pathless Fiercely Interdependent

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    Here's an interesting and little-known tidbit about some of the origins of American representative democracy:

    The people of the Six Nations, also known by the French term, Iroquois [SIZE=-1][1][/SIZE] Confederacy, call themselves the Hau de no sau nee (ho dee noe sho nee) meaning People Building a Long House. Located in the northeastern region of North America, originally the Six Nations was five and included the Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas. The sixth nation, the Tuscaroras, migrated into Iroquois country in the early eighteenth century. Together these peoples comprise the oldest living participatory democracy on earth. Their story, and governance truly based on the consent of the governed, contains a great deal of life-promoting intelligence for those of us not familiar with this area of American history. The original United States representative democracy, fashioned by such central authors as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, drew much inspiration from this confederacy of nations. In our present day, we can benefit immensely, in our quest to establish anew a government truly dedicated to all life's liberty and happiness much as has been practiced by the Six Nations for over 800 hundred years.

    Find out more here.
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Namaste and thanx Pathless.

    My favorite bit I heard regarding American Indigenous Governments was the council of elders that before they made a decision contemplated...what would the past 7 generations of councils have decided in this situation...and what will the next 7 generations of councils think of our decision...

    That is just about enough government for me.
     
  16. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    I personally believe there needs to be more religion in politics than there is...I take comfort in the fact that God esablishes the leaders of this world.
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    phooey
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2007
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I personally don't think I'd be happy living in the countries which I know have politics and religion intermingled, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Syria....

    I appreciate having been lucky enough to be born in a country founded by folks who fled a country who had religion and politics intertwined created a country where it wouldn't.
     
  19. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    I think the relationship between religion and politics is very complex and interesting, and can't really be reduced to 'good-bad.' Politics is our relationship with the people around us, so in that sense religion can never be seperated from politics. If we take as an example the ministry of Jesus on earth, His teachings directly challenged the power structure of the day, even as He said and demonstrated that He was not here to be political leader. He did not fit the expectations of the Jewish rebels of the day who were looking for a political leader to deliver them out of Roman rule.

    IMO, religion starts out as a grass roots antagonist to the powers of the world, sometimes by the sword, sometimes by actions that look a lot more like non-resistance/non-violence: rebellion against authority without revolt. Jesus teachings essentially amounted to a removal of the need for Temple worship (Jesus is the sacrifice for your sins) which of course was rebellious against the Jewish authorities. He also preached a lassaize-faire attitude to Roman rule (render unto Caesar what is Caesar's). Jesus was killed because He was politically dangerous.

    But as a religion forms around the initial movement and gains more adherants there is a need for political organization to keep people unified and connected. Unfortunately this also means that a growing religion is ripe for taking advantage by outside political forces. Again using Christianity as an example, the Church wishes to get out from persecution and oppression and also wishes to influence the surrounding culture. The secular government wishes to keep its people peaceful (whether to good or bad ends) and compliant. So it seems that religion and politics are inextricably connected because in a sense, religion is politics.

    However, the grand experiment started by the American founders calls for a degree of seperation of church and state, and one that I think has been a very important part of the benefits and freedoms we have in our country. I do not like to see movements that attempt by law or policy to weave religion back into our government. For one thing...which religion do you want to see in power in such a theocracy? I'm sure it's not Islam in the US.

    Having said all of that, I think that it is unavoidable that our leaders bring their religious values into their descision-making process. For people who are religious it would be impossible to not bring those values into play, unless they are just play-acting about their faith. If we vote into office a conservative Biblical Christian we should expect that any votes or power they use are likely going to reflect conservative values. Same goes for a liberal Christian, an atheist, a JW, an LDS, whichever. The values our candidates have which stem from their religious views are no different from values they have based upon anything else.

    However, these days even people who profess a certain religious affiliation are often likely to be free-thinkers, upholding the values they deem to be good and useful, but also willing to take a stand in opposition of their religion if they think it is for the greater good. We can only know a candidates values based upon past actions and the claims they make for themselves. In sum, the separation of church and state is an important basis for maintaining the integrity of our government and our religions.
     
  20. InLove

    InLove at peace

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    Well stated, lunamoth. I concur. (No surprise, I'm sure!) :)

    InPeace,
    InLove
     

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