heres a interesting question if you think about it,

[lunamoth]

Well stated, lunamoth. I concur. (No surprise, I'm sure!)

InPeace,
InLove

Thank you InLove.

I wonder if you'd find it surprising if I told you that I think part of my active Christian faith calls for me to be antagonistic to the powers of the world, including my own government. No, not anarchy or rebellion against my government (non-resistant), but a sharp awareness of the way our governments operate and to stand up for the oppressed and marginalized. Oppression is a systematic effect...which means it comes from our politcal/governmental institutions. It's important that Christians be vigilant about the abuses created by our government...often we are told that actions taken by our governemnt are based in "Christian values," and we need to be alert to the fact that sometimes those actions are really in direct opposition to Christ's message.

Why do some in our government keep trying to keep our attention focused on personal issues like abortion, sex and marriage when our environment is being destroyed, rampant capitalism is growing the gap between rich and poor, and we start wars in the mid-east with highly questionable motives and mis-information? I'm likely to get flamed for saying the above...but the propaganda we are fed is out of control.

 

[InLove]

I wonder if you'd find it surprising if I told you that I think part of my active Christian faith calls for me to be antagonistic to the powers of the world, including my own government. No, not anarchy or rebellion against my government (non-resistant), but a sharp awareness of the way our governments operate and to stand up for the oppressed and marginalized. Oppression is a systematic effect...which means it comes from our politcal/governmental institutions. It's important that Christians be vigilant about the abuses created by our government...often we are told that actions taken by our governemnt are based in "Christian values," and we need to be alert to the fact that sometimes those actions are really in direct opposition to Christ's message.

No, I am not surprised. While the concept of separation of church and state is supposed to be in place as an important safeguard against religious tyranny, it still allows for the individual to influence laws according to his or her conscience and with the vote. When the government tells me that it is operating within Christian-based value system, then as a Christian, my interest is peeked. I am watching to see. Often I do not agree with what my government is telling me.

Why do some in our government keep trying to keep our attention focused on personal issues like abortion, sex and marriage when our environment is being destroyed, rampant capitalism is growing the gap between rich and poor, and we start wars in the mid-east with highly questionable motives and mis-information?

My guess is that the distraction works toward their personal interests. What concerns me is the level of campaigning that many well-meaning Christians get caught up in. I wish I knew how to say this better. I'll work on it.

I'm likely to get flamed for saying the above...but the propaganda we are fed is out of control.

No doubt.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[InLove]

Bump because post is not showing up. It tried to get lost in cyberspace.

 

[lunamoth]

No, I am not surprised. While the concept of separation of church and state is supposed to be in place as an important safeguard against religious tyranny, it still allows for the individual to influence laws according to his or her conscience and with the vote. When the government tells me that it is operating within Christian-based value system, then as a Christian, my interest is peeked. I am watching to see. Often I do not agree with what my government is telling me.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

My guess is that the distraction works toward their personal interests. What concerns me is the level of campaigning that many well-meaning Christians get caught up in. I wish I knew how to say this better. I'll work on it.

I think you said it well. It's in their interest to keep us stirred up and in fear so we don't notice that the bigger issues are not being addressed. A much more Christian message was that of FDR's statement: the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Lately our government seems to be taking the opposite tact and doing a fair share of fear mongering. One of Christ's clearest messages was "Fear not."

No doubt.

InPeace,
InLove

No doubt that the propaganda is out of control or that I'll get flamed?

 

[InLove]

Probably both--but now you have company.

 

[Snoopy]

Hi,

Do I watch news about a different "America"? On the rare occasion Dubya manages to string a whole sentence together, when he wants to make sure it's considered important he seems to manage to slip in the G word.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

Hi,

On another website there’s been a discussion on the religious intolerance in the US (i.e. intolerant to non-Christians). This shocked and surprised me (knowing very little about American history and culture). The “explanation” posted was essentially that it stems from the fact that the European settlers were not seeking religious freedoms but were Protestant fundamentalists who were horrified that Catholics were allowed to live side-by-side with them (in other words they were leaving a place where there was religious freedom at the time).

Feel free to correct this wildly inaccurate summary but I have to say that the experiences and attitudes reported by people on the forum on this topic have been depressing ones of intolerance.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

Why do some in our government keep trying to keep our attention focused on personal issues like abortion, sex and marriage when our environment is being destroyed, rampant capitalism is growing the gap between rich and poor, and we start wars in the mid-east with highly questionable motives and mis-information?

Yeah, you've answered your own question there haven't you?!

Probably Chapter 1 of the Politician's Handbook -

"Keep the Proles' Attention Off the Stuff that Matters"

s.

 

[InLove]

Hi s.

I truly believe that religious freedom was one of the reasons people sought out a home in "the New World". But I think it is obvious that it was not the only reason. And there is no reason to think that the laws of this country weren't based to some extent on Biblical laws. But America's political system was not designed to be a theocracy. It was designed to guard against it. I think that there are times in this country where we drift dangerously away from the very freedom we say we treasure. Hopefully, each American will take a good, honest look at not only the situation we have right now, but our entire history--and learn from it.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Snoopy]

Indeed. Everyone has religious beliefs (even if it is simply “I am an atheist”) and similarly everyone has political opinions. I don’t see that the two can be kept separate even if one wanted to, as they are both such fundamentals. How overtly they are expressed (verbally and behaviourally) will clearly vary between individuals and countries.

The Church of England recently bemoaned its waning influence (Brian has started a thread about this) given that (to paraphrase their own comment) Christian beliefs underpin our law making. And I thought I didn’t live in a theocracy either!

s.

 

[Pathless]

I wonder if you'd find it surprising if I told you that I think part of my active Christian faith calls for me to be antagonistic to the powers of the world, including my own government. No, not anarchy or rebellion against my government (non-resistant), but a sharp awareness of the way our governments operate and to stand up for the oppressed and marginalized. Oppression is a systematic effect...which means it comes from our politcal/governmental institutions. It's important that Christians be vigilant about the abuses created by our government...often we are told that actions taken by our governemnt are based in "Christian values," and we need to be alert to the fact that sometimes those actions are really in direct opposition to Christ's message.

I'm so happy when I hear active Christians talking like this.

Blessings,
Pathless

 

[flowperson]

Yes...thank you Luna and InLove for reaffirming why I became a Christian in my heart and mind as soon as I could think for myself and understand what I was being taught.

It is the ultimate rebellion to renounce money, power, and privilege. And yet here was this ordinary man who did just that and was killed for it by those who had money, power, and privilege. And then we are taught that He was endowed with eternal life in order to continue His mission, and furthermore promised future rebels a place in His house for eternity. What a great story!

Just when was it that we came to believe that Christianity is all about passive and pious acceptance of repression and political manipulations ?

Bogus !

flow....

 

[Faithfulservant]

I personally don't think I'd be happy living in the countries which I know have politics and religion intermingled, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Syria....

I appreciate having been lucky enough to be born in a country founded by folks who fled a country who had religion and politics intertwined created a country where it wouldn't.

Yeah we can see the moral decline of countries that take religion out of gov,t. I take it you've never read the original documents created by our forefathers because they put God into everything. heck.. just look at our money ... listen to our national anthem... say the pledge of allegience.. Im not sure which country you were born into but its not the same as mine.

 

[lunamoth]

Yeah we can see the moral decline of countries that take religion out of gov,t. I take it you've never read the original documents created by our forefathers because they put God into everything. heck.. just look at our money ... listen to our national anthem... say the pledge of allegience.. Im not sure which country you were born into but its not the same as mine.

God yes, religion no.

 

[Faithfulservant]

God yes, religion no.

I stand corrected

 

[antianira]

i hate how in america the liberals are all about seperation of church and state, but in all actuallity it makes no sense thats basicly biting they hand that feeds you, .....

You are missing the purpose of seperation of church and state. It is not just to keep the influence of religion out of our government, but to keep the infuence of government out of your beliefs. Would you want a Catholic president telling protestents how to worship? This was a serious concern when JFK came into office. Jefferson's 'wall of seperation' is about the government having no right to tell people, nor punish people because of their religion. The reference is in a letter to a baptist community who expressed concern over their religious freedom (because they were in the minority in their community)

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship" -Jeffereson 01/01/1802 in letter to Danbury Baptist Association


Even amongst christians, there are differences in beliefs. Try attending churches of a few different denominations. You may be surprised to learn just how differently christians worship. Is it the place of government to decide which of those beliefs is correct? Seperation of church and state protects you too. It is not an issue of liberal vs. conservative. We are human beings, and we should all be free to see and praise our god (or no god at all) in whatever way we please.

 

[wil]

Yeah we can see the moral decline of countries that take religion out of gov,t. I take it you've never read the original documents created by our forefathers because they put God into everything. heck.. just look at our money ... listen to our national anthem... say the pledge of allegience.. Im not sure which country you were born into but its not the same as mine.

Yes, I've read original documents: the papers, Madision's notes, Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration...many others, and even one we prefer not to discuss here...the Jeffersonian Bible or their masonic notes... Our money of course is what they argued about intensely and all of the 'currency' we use today which was made 'legal tender' those federal reserve notes were exactly what our forefathers vowed this country never to use...and the pledge as we all know was written by a socialist and did not include 'under G-d' when adopted by congress and was not modified till 1958....hmmm so at the time I was born or my parents..in this country we didn't say 'under G-d' in the pledge (and of course before 1944 our pledge was said with our palms outstretched toward the flag...) things do change with time...

I was born into a different country I suppose...one where women and blacks didn't have rights, one where blacks were segregated till I was 8, weren't given the vote till I was 9, and didn't have equal rights to housing till I was 15 awfully hard to believe the changes made in the past 50 years.

However I am aware that references to G-d sprinkle the documents everywhere, however I don't remember many references to church.

 

[17th Angel]

How does religion effect politics,.......

and how does politics effect religion,.......

they both really go hand in hand no matter in what way you look at it,

just to throw that out there.............

Ever seen Sin city? The story of Merv... I know, it doesn't TEND to get that far fetched and out of hand... But, pretty close I am talking of the man that became a high ranking man of cloth instead of a govenor and such... But he used this influence to gain material gain and power... I would say that is life like.

 

[Saltmeister]

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship" -Jeffereson 01/01/1802 in letter to Danbury Baptist Association

This might sound radical to say, and many of you may disagree, but I believe that religion should be kept out of "politics" altogether, that Church and State should be separate, and not just separate, but completely isolated from each other.

But what I am about to say isn't about protecting people, it's about respecting people's beliefs. From a Christian point of view, the U.S. government is a political system. Political systems are driven by ideology. Ideology is a man-made system founded on rules, protocols, tenets and institutions. Christianity should be kept out of "worldly governments" because it is about our relationship with God, which is otherworldly. It should be kept separate from the State to distinguish it from something worldly -- ideology and political systems. If we mix Christianity (something otherworldly) with ideology and politics (worldly) it distorts the whole meaning of Christianity. Less and less people will be able to distinguish Christianity from politics.

There is a question of whether a Christian getting into politics and proclaiming a "Christian agenda" can really speak for Christians all around the world. It is a really big issue to actually claim a "Christian agenda" and be able to back it up with policies implemented through a political system. Moreover, a person who proclaims a "Christian agenda," "Christian values" and wants to maintain a country's status and identity as "a Christian country" is using Christianity as like some kind of trademark, banner or slogan. I find it rather strange that Christians have, very rarely in Western history, expressed offence that a government or group of people have used the Christianity's name as some kind of trademark, banner or slogan to be heralded and paraded in the face of the general public.

Jews around the world have, quite recently, been in protest against the Israeli government's actions in the Middle East. The reason to me, is quite clear. The Israeli government proclaims the will of the Nation of Israel. But we all know the Nation of Israel is not just the modern political state of Israel shown geographically on a world map. It includes all of the Jews scattered all around the world. That is the whole Jewish collective. The Israeli government proclaims the will of that collective, but it would have to back up the claim that it represents the hearts and minds of all Jews around the world. If it fails that while parading and heralding the banner of the Jewish Nation, it is in effect desecrating the Jewish collective identity.

The level of respect a religion deserves depends on how readily it opposes a government that contradicts what that religion means and represents. Jews protesting against the Israeli government and Jewish opposition to Zionism are a sign that they have respect for their own religion. Likewise, Islamic extremist fundamentalists desecrate the Islamic collective identity. Muslims protesting against such groups vindicate Islam from that kind of reputation.

What could we say of any government or prominent group parading or heralding Christianity as a trademark, banner or slogan?

In my view, no political system can ever represent Christianity. Any government that claims to do so is using Christianity as a trademark/banner/slogan. But Christianity is about a private and personal relationship with God. A government or politician that uses that symbol is desecrating the Christian collective identity. It is essentially an insult to all Christians around the world. Yet we don't oppose it. We actually think it serves the cause of Christianity!!! Don't we think the name of Christianity is being misused and abused?

While one might argue that "Christianity" should have an influence in politics, most of the time it's about changing laws. But that goes against what Christianity is supposed to mean. Christianity isn't about making rules and laws. Christians are supposed to be law-less. We're supposed to be the lowest common denominator. Why have we suddenly gone around proclaiming righteousness and trying to change our country's laws and moral codes? Christianity does not have any moral codes. Jesus didn't teach moral codes.

I'm not saying we have no scruples. Being lawless does not mean we have no scruples. It means we are simply free to do what feels right rather than what someone dictates to us as right. Look at what the Roman Emperor Constantine did to Christianity!!!

Sorry to say this but I believe that it is disrespectful for any politician to proclaim that a "Christian agenda" can be pursued in a politics. I have no problem with someone proclaiming a "Christian individual's agenda" but I don't like the idea of anyone proclaiming a "Christian collective agenda" in politics.

 

[flowperson]

Saltmeister...we are in total agreement.

"Those that talk seldom do. Those that do seldom talk."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

flow....