Theosophical Hierarchy

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Apr 20, 2007.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Andrew,

    Thanks for that clarification. You are correct that all four lower principles fall away at death. Most people are suprised to see that even the astral body does not make it into Devachan ("Heaven").

    I will be curious to see how all of this compares with Andre's belief system.
     
  2. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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    Nick the Pilot,

    I have not heard of the seven-fold nature of man. It is sound to say that "
    "The four lower aspects are discarded at the end of each incarnation. The three higher aspects survive, spending time in Devachan between incarnations, and re-linking with new copies of the four lower aspects at the beginning of the next incarnation". I say this because as the four lower aspects could be seen as temperal whilst the three higher aspects are permament, but always find themselves with temperal four lower aspects. To me, the spirit and the three higher aspects go to Heaven.

    On the soul I will give a section from my circular, 'Neo-Manichee'; dated in March 2007:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    "5) The Spirit and its creator, the body and its creator(s) and how to set free the spirit from the flesh.

    Humanity was created with an inner self, a nishimta, a pneuma, a neshamah or a spirit. The spirit is deep within and is untouchable and unbreakable. The spirit can be seen as the spark of light, a marking by God which is encased by the flesh and so the body is a living vessel for the spirit and the spirit is implanted in its host. The deeper spirit is further engulfed with lower souls (but remains as one) which are the parts of the spirit that express false emotion and bad instinct. True emotion is from the deep spirit, as is true faith from the deep within is us all. However false emotion and bad instinct can upturn a person’s effort to make them whole. To merge them together I will state that perfection in life and everything is needed. For the unbelieving of those of little faith the spark is like the moon with a glow and for those with true faith the spirit is like a great pure fire.

    In Gnostic tradition the body was created by beings other then God, the beings of death and who can only provide death. God created for man spiritual bodies which are the same as our material bodies. The body and its pleasures dig into the spirit and so it is spreading its imperfection causing the spirit to be corrupted. Man fell in his own existence, he loves his own body and its material delights and so he fouls his heavenly self. The body is put before the spirit and in doing so a man will make an idol of his own body and worships himself rather then worshipping God. Man cannot love his body (causing harm to his heavenly spirit) and love God at the same time, therefore he must decide the body or the spirit"

    The portion of the text in italic I see as being relevant and the Neo-Manichee was typed with my beliefs as the main focus.

    The spirit can be seen as being three separate souls, one is the Nishimta, and one is false instinct and one is false emotion. The aim of the discerning Nazorean is to unite them together in unity. The souls, as I see are permament and are not temperal, but there is the need to unite the three permament souls into one, under the Nishimta (Highest Sould, also called by name of Spirit). The body, and all other things apart from the three souls are temporal and do not live after being reincarnated.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I hold that, considering the time allocated to men by Our Parents that I think the actual time, is much larger. 448,000 years would give enough time for those travelling through one heaven at a time, in a continued progression.


    Andre Francis
     
  3. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Andre,

    It is fascinating to see the commonalities between our two systems. Theosophy, too, sees the Higher Self as having three main components. (Theosophy seems to have a bit more complicated theory.)

    Let me know if you want to hear more about various Theosophical ideas.
     
  4. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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    Re: -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Nick the Pilot



    I just have not detailed the full doctrine of the O.N.E (Order of Nazorean Essenes) but whereas naturally I commented by my understaning vary then go on for ages.

    I would love to continue unto further topics.

    Andre
     
  5. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Andre,

    There is one more topic closely related to Hell, and that is the topic of Avichi. According to Theosophy, humanity is scheduled to be on Earth for a specific amount of time. When our time here finally runs out, a new planet will be set up. At that time, today's animals will become that planet's humans, today's plants will become that planet's animals, etc.

    There is an issue regarding today's humans who do not make it into Nirvana by the end of this Earth. It is said they enter a state called Avichi, in which they are held back and forced to join the new human race on the next planet. It is said being in this Avichi is a suffering much worse than any Hell.

    Does your belief system have any idea like this?
     
  6. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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    Re: -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Nick The Pilot,

    I agree that our time will eventually will expire. On the otherhand, I see that the planet is permament. This planet is one of seven planets and so instead of going to a new planet we are to move unto one of the seven other planets. This planet remains the same but the beings who dwell on it always change.

    As to those who fail to make it into Nirvana I will say that does it sound alittle illogical to reward those who at the least showed genuine intension and were chosen (by way of iniation) to suddenly experience Avichi, which as you have put, is worse then any Hell. Is this actaully an incentive to encourage those seeking Nirvana do put all of their efforts into their actions, so that they gain enter Nirvana before the earths expiry date.

    Andre
     
  7. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Andre, you said,
    "...I see that the planet is permament.... This planet remains the same but the beings who dwell on it always change."

    --> The Sun will burn itself out in a few zillion years. It would seem your system would halt at that time. Such a system seems to lack permanency.
    "does it sound alittle illogical to reward those who at the least showed genuine intension and were chosen (by way of iniation) to suddenly experience Avichi...."
    --> It sounds perfectly logical to me. Even better than that, it is perfectly fair. (One of my criticisms of Christianity is that it is horribly unfair, although your belief system sounds different than Christianity.)

    Regarding the unfairness of Avichi, I just do not see it. Everyone is given a set time of millions of years to reach Nirvana. For those who do not make it in that overly-generous amount of time, they can still make it in the next world-period. No, I see no unfairness whatsoever. The idea that Nirvana must be earned, and can never be given as an undeserved present makes sense to me.
    "Is this actaully an incentive to encourage those seeking Nirvana do put all of their efforts into their actions, so that they gain enter Nirvana before the earths expiry date."
    --> Yes, it is. This is why it makes sense to me.

    ~~~

    Time for a new topic. I would like to discuss the relationship of animals to humans and Heaven. According to Theosophy, at the end of a world-period, animals are promoted to humans, plants are promoted to animals, minerals are promoted to plants, etc. All consciousness in the universe eventually passes through the human phase, and experiences Heaven and Nirvana.

    How is such an idea seen in your belief system? Can animals go to Heaven and Nirvana? How about plants and bacteria?
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Re: -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    In discussion once with an author and friend Kathy Oddenino she mentioned that our souls have all made that transition from gas to stone to bacteria to plant to animal to man... And at each stage we gained and grew...and added that this a reason to respect those that utilize stars, crystals, plants in healing and spiritual practices...
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Can I throw in a couple of issues, that have been raised by many, so might be old hat, as I do not follow this argument?

    The Aristotelian idea of perfection/end is for a thing to be all it can be, to realise its potential — so why is it not sufficient for a plant to be a perfect plant, a rock a rock, etc., are we saying that no natural think is perfect in itself, but requires that it transit through human?

    Another is that the notion of 'good' or 'bad' from a moral/ethic sense only applies to the human, who has 'freedom' and 'choice' according to his nature. A dog or a plant of a rock does not possess such qualities, so cannot be judged in quite the same way.

    Thus the argument that:
    A good creature of any species is 'promoted' to the next higher species assumes that the creature has the free moral choice and intellectual capacity top make such decisions.

    Likewise the old idea (working in the other direction) that a 'bad' person is reincarnated as a rat or a worm — although I understand this is a populist and unfounded theory?

    +++

    Overall, is does seem a humanocentric view of things. We have a similar view in Christianity, but that does not mean that things have to be human to be perfect.

    +++

    On the question of 'are there dogs in heaven' there are two answers:
    1 – One might argue that no, there are not. Dogs (etc) have not the capacity to make morally informed choices, therefore the rule does not apply.

    2 — I cannot imagine a paradisical state that would not involve flora and fauna. If I got to heaven, and there wasn't an Irish Wolfhound waiting for me, then it would not quite be paradise.

    +++

    We limit the possibilities to those we choose fitting, which undermines the whole argument, somewhat. What about molecules, galaxies, enzymes, planets, bacteria, atoms ... is there a heaven for them?

    Thomas
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    In my view it is not whether one is good or bad...no dualism...but whether the soul as learned all it needs to learn at that level of existence....and not that each and every soul has is on the same career path...much like the cell in the rod of my eyeball differentiating light and sending impulses to my brain to decipher would not be able to take the place of that brain cell or the place of a fingernail cell...each has a duty, not readily interchangeable based on its past experience it is suited for its current location...

    Just because I was mushroom and you a sequoia and 17th a tomato doesn't mean we have to graduate through all these unless our soul needs some other experience for the next incarnation... Just as no one on earth is able to say the Sadam has not finished his role on this planet...

    I'm always reminded in these discussions of that chinese story I can never remember about the kid who broke his arm so he didn't go to war ...not good, not bad...just is.
     
  11. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Wil, you said,
    "In discussion once with an author and friend Kathy Oddenino she mentioned that our souls have all made that transition from gas to stone to bacteria to plant to animal to man..."
    --> Kathy is wise beyond her years. Such an idea is a basic Theosophical teaching.

    I am fascinated by her comment about gas. I wonder if she means physical gas or spiritual gas. (I imagine she means physical gas.) According to Theosophy, spirit is in a sort of "spiritual gas" state before it ensouls mineral. This "spiritual gas" does not ensoul any physical object (as such ensoulation is impossible). The first act of ensouling (according to Theosophy) occurs when physical matter is first ensouled, which first occurs when each level (human, animal, plant, mineral, "spiritual gas") is promoted at the beginning of a world-period.


    I need to add one more concept to the theory. This "spiritual gas" is just one more step on a long series of steps that began when Spirit first moved across the Waters, creating spiritual "sparkles" in the Water. Those sparkles, after aeons, become the "spiritual gas".
    "...that this a reason to respect those that utilize stars, crystals, plants in healing and spiritual practices..."
    --> This is a great utilization of the concept that soul (individuals as well as non-individualized) occurs at many levels.
     
  12. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Thomas, you said,
    "why is it not sufficient for a plant to be a perfect plant, a rock a rock, etc., are we saying that no natural think is perfect in itself, but requires that it transit through human?"

    --> Because all spirit is on a journey back to That which "exists" above the Firmament. Accoriding to your belief system, a plant remains a plant for eternity. According to my belief system, a plant becomes much more — eventually a star, and even higher. (The idea that bacteria will remain bacteria for eternity strikes me as rather odd.) This is why I like my belief system better.
    "Another is that the notion of 'good' or 'bad' from a moral/ethic sense only applies to the human, who has 'freedom' and 'choice' according to his nature. A dog or a plant of a rock does not possess such qualities, so cannot be judged in quite the same way."
    --> According to your belief system, they never will. According to my belief system, they will. A dog cannot be judged by human standards, that is obvious. Ah, but when a dog becomes a human (according to Theosophy), it is judged as a human.

    "A good creature of any species is 'promoted' to the next higher species assumes that the creature has the free moral choice and intellectual capacity top make such decisions."

    --> I do not see a bacteria being able to make such a decision. However, it is promoted according to a strict set of criteria, just as strict as the human criteria. It is just that (according to Theosophy) promotion at the bacterial level is more automatic, while at the human level free moral choice and intellectual capacity become critical issues.
    "Likewise the old idea (working in the other direction) that a 'bad' person is reincarnated as a rat or a worm — although I understand this is a populist and unfounded theory?"

    Populist perhaps, and certainly unfounded. Theosophy teaches people never reincarnate as animals. This is a big difference between Theosophy and Buddhism. I could never believe people reincarnate as animals, which is one more reason why I am not a Buddhist.
    "...that does not mean that things have to be human to be perfect."

    --> Fortunately, Theosophy teaches that humans are a long way from perfection, much further from perfection than Christianity teaches.
    "Dogs (etc) have not the capacity to make morally informed choices, therefore the rule does not apply."

    --> This agrees with the Theosophical idea that dogs do not go to Heaven until they become humans.
    "I cannot imagine a paradisical state that would not involve flora and fauna."

    --> My Heaven will certainly contain flora and fauna. The thing is, it will all be an illusion, created by me, for me, in my Heaven. The real flora and fauna will be much too busy becoming humans.
    "If I got to heaven, and there wasn't an Irish Wolfhound waiting for me, then it would not quite be paradise."
    --> He will be waiting.

    "What about molecules, galaxies, enzymes, planets, bacteria, atoms ... is there a heaven for them?"
    --> Eventually, yes!
     
  13. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Wil, you said,
    "In my view it is not whether one is good or bad...no dualism...but whether the soul as learned all it needs to learn at that level of existence...."
    --> I agree.
    "...and not that each and every soul has is on the same career path..."
    --> I agree.
    "...much like the cell in the rod of my eyeball differentiating light and sending impulses to my brain to decipher would not be able to take the place of that brain cell or the place of a fingernail cell..."
    --> I agree.
    "...each has a duty, not readily interchangeable based on its past experience it is suited for its current location..."
    --> I agree.
    "Just because I was mushroom and you a sequoia and 17th a tomato doesn't mean we have to graduate through all these unless our soul needs some other experience for the next incarnation..."
    --> I see all of consciousness traveling on a Path of increasing spirituality, with definite steps along the way, each step being a prerequisite for the step above. I guess you do not, and we can agree to disagree.

    I do need to ask one question. Do your occular rods and cones have the ability to go straight to Heaven as angels?
    "I'm always reminded in these discussions of that chinese story I can never remember about the kid who broke his arm so he didn't go to war ...not good, not bad...just is."
    --> I am reminded of an angry God who threw Adam and Eve out of paradise. In my belief system, they were allowed and encouraged to descend to the Earth. Therefore, your belief system and mine involve less judging of good and evil than the prevailing belief system.
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    ether that or something else!!

    It has been quite a while since I've seen Kathy...she's moved away and the things she has discussed have merged with many other discussions in my mind so I can't say actually whether the gas was with her or not..I know this is discussed in one of her books, I don't know if I have the right one at home to find it or not..

    I believe each soul is designed for a belief system....and that soul will find it...or evolve to suit the system that our shell has settled into...or make another few hundred trips around...
    I do believe there are steps...I don't know if they are the same for everyone...I'm not believing so...

    rods and cones as angels...hmm that would have us being a multitude of souls...expanding on my quick analogy...I'm not thinking so...

    As for the Adam and Eve and angry G-d I don't see an angry G-d throwing them out of the garden...I see man creating a story where an angry G-d threw them out of the garden to explain situations that were occurring at that time...
     
  15. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Wil, you said,
    "I do believe there are steps...I don't know if they are the same for everyone...I'm not believing so..."
    --> I am glad we can at least get people to think there is more to "eternity" than a two-step process of dying and Heaven.
    "rods and cones as angels...hmm that would have us being a multitude of souls..."
    --> You do not see us as a multitude of souls?

    "... the gas was with her or not.."
    --> Oh dear, I wonder if she had gas....
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Re: -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    You know I've contemplated souls splitting and souls uniting and more than one...but trillions I haven't contemplated trillions...it seems acceptable but confusing.

    You must remember I respond with thoughts as I read these posts and don't have the education and knowledge so many of you do...just experience and contemplation...
     
  17. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Wil,

    Yes, the numbers are mind-boggling. Our Milky-Way galaxy is said to contain 250 billion stars, and one estimate says there are about 250 billion galaxies. And, according to my belief system, each star was at one time a human being. That is a lot of human beings!
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Re: -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    See now that isn't mindboggling 62 octillion I can grock and contemplate it being small...

    But if you have a system so well defined...now my contemplations cause my neuronet to heat up... back to trillions of individualised souls in one entity....it is funny why did I think that as acceptable as a planet but not as human...where is the paradigm shift that didn't allow that before...another viel lifted that wasn't there...

    So if we go from ether to here and from here to star...what happens as we dwarf and morph? Still the contemplation of soul growth and multiple souls/trillions...makes me wonder if they come and go as we move along...
     
  19. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Wil,

    OK, I will take your 62 octillion and raise you a gazilliion. Earth has about 3 billion people. It has been said our Earth has a total of 60 billion souls going in and out of incarnation. This is only one planet, and it has been said our solar system contains seven or ten such "creation stories".

    How many does that work out to? (I can only count up to ten on my fingers....)
     
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    that would be 180 septillion now if we multiply that times our galaxies and we get a number more like it...

    Those ten fingers and knuckles when used like an abacus can get you quite far...and then when you add toes...
     

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