Theosophical Hierarchy

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Apr 20, 2007.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I am simply stating that human is not the paradigm for perfection.

    God created dogs because he wanted dogs to share in the Divine Life, something I can say on the basis that if the Divine life didn't want dogs or flowers or clouds, crystals or galaxies or aeons, there wouldn't be.

    But they all hinge on God, not man. We are not the media by which the value of everything is judged 'good' — were that so, then everything other than man would be disposable.

    Your perspective, to me, would appear to uphold the Transcendant as the only reality which, ontologically, I can agree with, but which seems ordered qualitatively according to man, which, phenomenologically, I cannot.

    I also seek, paradoxically, and that is the Heart of the Mystery to me, the Immanent Presence in all things, which speaks of Unity in Diversity in a profoundly real and metahuman way.

    The nature of man is not to perfect other natures in my book, the nature of man is to see the sacred in them ... we are here to witness and delight in them, with their Creator.

    Just my speculative viewpoint.

    Thomas
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    hmmm....I don't see how I see man as quantifying what is and what isn't other than...duh..it is our perspective through which we see things....

    Had a dog, a rock or a galaxy created these forums the discussion would be from a canine or galactic point of view...

    Seems we all see the divinity in or involved in all...
     
  3. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    Thomas, you said,
    "We are not the media by which the value of everything is judged 'good' — were that so, then everything other than man would be disposable."

    --> It is not my contention that man is the yardstick by which everything else is measured. Man is just one step along the Path. I do not see where you get such an idea.
    "Your perspective, to me, would appear to uphold the Transcendant as the only reality...."

    --> This is an effective description of my belief system.
    "...but which seems ordered qualitatively according to man, which, phenomenologically, I cannot."
    --> I do not see my belief system as "ordered qualitatively according to man". Man is unique in that he has self-consciousness but he is lacking in what I call "cosmic consciousness" (which is a weak description of Nirvanic consciousness). In this one small respect, man is unique from all other life forms. Other than that, man is just one more step along the Path.


    It is ironic that I see Christianity, not Theosophy as "ordered qualitatively according to man". The whole idea of Christianity is based on humans getting to Heaven. Such a human-heavy philosophy could never work for me. The Bible seems to talk mostly of the relationship of God and humanity, when to me, there is a whole lot more going on in the universe than this one small God/human relationship.
    "The nature of man is not to perfect other natures in my book, the nature of man is to see the sacred in them...."
    --> This brings up a critical difference between Christianity and Theosophy. Theosophy sees everything in the universe in a constant state of change. All entities, man, stars, angels, etc., never stay static. Everything is constantly improving. In contrast, I do not see such an idea in Christianity. Stars and galaxies are not changing, not trying to improve themselves? Such an idea could never fit into my belief system.

    Christianity says some people get to Heaven and that is it — no more progress is made. That does not work for me. No, I prefer a philosophy that says I will continue to progress (along with bacteria and Irish Wolfhounds) for many universes to come. To see progress over countless universes for everyone and everything, now that is sacred to me. Thomas, I remember you bragging about how Christianity gets humanity to its final state much faster than Theosophy. I, on the other hand, am thrilled how Theosophy offers me much more than just Heaven.
     
  4. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Don't forget how important the idea of Karma is within all of this. And I don't just mean karma in the conventional, exoteric sense of the word ... that is, necessarily in the framework of an Eastern religious tradition, even if that is how we've many of us come to understand it.

    In line with this discussion, consider the entries under Karma and Karma-Nemesis in the online Theosophical Glossary, here: Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary, Ka-Kd, Theosophical U Press

    The 2nd entry deals with some of your reservations rather succinctly, Thomas ...

    ~Andrew
     
  5. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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    NICK THE PILOT;

    Nick the Pilot, you said, "The Sun will burn itself out in a few zillion years. It would seem your system would halt at that time. Such a system seems to lack permanency."
    I say: Yes, I am aware that since the sun is material and therefore it is temperal and will not endure for all eternity. We await for the burning out of the sun. I adhere to such a system because the 'material' is temperal, and I wait for what cane be described as; separation off the light and darkness, truth and falsehood and Matter and Spirit. The sun burning out is expected to be one of the signs of the anticipated segregation between this world and the universe from Spirit (and particles of Light encased in the Matter). Enough with the sun dying, the universe will fall into darkness and the Heavens will remain untouched and the Heaven shall remain bright with the spiritual light of the Spirit. The Heavens have always been separate from Matter and the material universe and will not experience the same as the material universe.

    Nick the Pilot, you said, "It sounds perfectly logical to me. Even better than that, it is perfectly fair. (One of my criticisms of Christianity is that it is horribly unfair, although your belief system sounds different than Christianity.) Regarding the unfairness of Avichi, I just do not see it. Everyone is given a set time of millions of years to reach Nirvana. For those who do not make it in that overly-generous amount of time, they can still make it in the next world-period. No, I see no unfairness whatsoever. The idea that Nirvana must be earned, and can never be given as an undeserved present makes sense to me."
    I say: You have won me over by saying 'Everyone is given a set time of millions of years to reach Nirvana. For those who do not make it in that overly-generous amount of time, they can still make it in the next word-period'. I am not a Christian so I do not communicate in the way that a Christian does. Theosophy is was a Theosophist does.Manichaeanism is, what a Manichaean does. Christianity is, what Christians does.

    Nick the Pilot, you said:"I would like to discuss the relationship of animals to humans and Heaven. According to Theosophy, at the end of a world-period, animals are promoted to humans, plants are promoted to animals, minerals are promoted to plants, etc. All consciousness in the universe eventually passes through the human phase, and experiences Heaven and Nirvana. How is such an idea seen in your belief system? Can animals go to Heaven and Nirvana? How about plants and bacteria?"
    I say: I have never come across anything like the above. Whilst on earth one of my tasks is to refrine and uplift humans,animals, planets and even minerals by using spiritual weapons and my focus in to be placed on freeing the Spirit from the flesh and freeing the Light from Matter by doing good deeds and works to the benefit of all. I have never seen in Neo-Manichaean teaching that animals, plants and minerals are promoted. I on the otherhand will say, in light off my second sentence, all which I managed to uplift and refrine will not fall into darkness with the rest of the universe but will follow after me - what I have spent my time on 'collecting particles of light (by good deeds, pure heart, modest action and I have succedded in refining and uplift of things around me). Yes, consciousness passes through, but the highet aspects remain. Yes animals do dwell in Heaven and by refining and freeing animals of 'darkness' they too become one of those who ascend to the Heavens. Plants also. Bacteria- thats odd, it lives and makes up a part of the make-up of light, so yes.

    Andre
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2007
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Re: -----====ooo000ooo====-----

    I think Theosophy has an erroneous view of Christian 'Heaven' because they interpret the term according to non-Christian viewpoint, always a possibility when words are held in common.

    To clarify, one might say the 'beatific vision', the immediate knowledge of God — not in the mediate sense which can be attained in this life — and having 'arrived' there, there is no more progress to be made.

    The 'Journey of the Soul into God' as St Bonaventure would describe it, is an eternal unfolding because God is eternal, and because God is Infinite, so inexhaustible, but paradoxically, changeless. Meister Eckhart spoke often of this — the Union beyond form, beyond distinction, beyond condition — the urgrund of his theology, and apophatic theology generally.

    I never brag Nick, I make observations, if they get under your skin, I can't help that. And it does seem to be the case, however.

    Judaism talks of those who 'walk with God', and Islam says 'God is closer to you than your jugular vein' and the transition, from separation to Union, which we call metanoia, can be instantaneous ... witness the salvation of the robber on the cross ... Theosophy chooses to refute this, OK, but nevertheless, for us it is the case.

    I do not question your beliefs, I simply point out that often, it would appear, in attempting to 'correct' the 'errors' of Christian doctrine, you interpret them according to your own determinations, which is not the case at all. If one truly wishes to understand Christianity, the best way is to do it, not read about what someone, who doesn't do it, thinks about it.

    I find it perplexing that, having stated that no-one in TS is required to believe in anything it says, you nevertheless insist that if a non-TS holds a different view to yours, they are wrong.

    Thomas
     
  7. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Andre, you said,
    "The sun burning out is expected to be one of the signs of the anticipated segregation between this world and the universe from Spirit (and particles of Light encased in the Matter)."

    --> This is similar to the Theosophical concept. When the sun finally burns out, Theosophy says we will be completely separated from all aspects of the physical word, and we will become pure spirit (which seems to agree with your belief system). Theosophy adds another idea, that this time between physical worlds will be a time of total rest for us.
    "...the universe will fall into darkness and the Heavens will remain untouched and the Heaven shall remain bright with the spiritual light of the Spirit."
    --> Here is a curious difference between our belief systems. When the universe falls into darkness, I believe even the spiritual light will be extinguished. According to Theosophy, the appearance of the Light signals the beginning of a universe, and the disappearance of the Light signals the end of a universe. Universes and the periodic appearance of the Light are only part of a larger cycle.

    This gets us into the subject of Darkness. We consider Darkness to be only a symbol of the true Reality, and the Light to be only a temporary manifestation of the Darkness. This is quite a profound topic, and I have only touched to surface of the topic.


    The appearance of the Light in Genesis (according to Theosophy) only refers to the appearance of this universe. One of the Theosophical criticims of the Bible is that it only talks about this universe. Theosophy goes a lot into the cycle of universes after universes. How does the idea of such a cycle fit into your belierf system?
    "The Heavens have always been separate from Matter and the material universe and will not experience the same as the material universe."
    --> I agree. The true nature of "The Heavens" is hidden from us by what is called the Firmament in Genesis. (Theosophy calls it the Wall of Fire.) The fact that true nature of "The Heavens" is completely hidden is another reason we call it the Darkness.
    "I have never come across anything like the above."

    --> I am glad I am giving you a chance to consider such ideas. The fact that you are now aware of such ideas is reward enough for me.
    "Whilst on earth one of my tasks is to refrine and uplift humans,animals, planets and even minerals...."

    --> Theosophy has the exact same goal.
    "...freeing the Spirit from the flesh and freeing the Light from Matter by doing good deeds and works to the benefit of all."
    --> I have the exact goal, although my goal is worded a little differently. I have two ideas here. (1) Yes, I am working to free Light from Matter. (2) I am also working to show Light is the same thing as Matter, but in a different form. One of my favorite quotes is that matter is merely "lightning standing still". As far as our role in "freeing" light from matter is concerned, I see it more of the idea of light mastering and conqueroring matter than escaping from it. It is said the great spirits can materialize a physical body whenever they want to, and discard it as soon as they do not need it any more. Furthermore, they can do this without getting entangled in materiality (as many of us humans do). So, I think you and I have the same idea, just worded differently.
    "Bacteria- thats odd, it lives and makes up a part of the make-up of light, so yes."
    --> According to Theosophy, even the essence of a bacteria will eventually become an "angel". I am glad I gave you such an idea.
     
  8. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Thomas, you said,
    "I find it perplexing...."
    --> I am only too happy to clear up your misunderstanding. One of the most important purposes of Theosophy is to teach critical thinking skills. One of the results of such skills is that we develop clearly-defined and time-tested belief systems. The difference is that each Theosophist has the right to his or her own belief system. Theosophists are encouraged to use critical-thinking skills to improve their belief systems, and they must take full responsibility for what they believe. (Relying on dogma to justify goofy ideas just does not cut it in Theosophy.) This is the heart of Theosophy.
    "...if a non-TS holds a different view to yours, they are wrong."
    --> When it happens, It is I and my belief system that says they are wrong, not Theosophy. For example, some Theosophists think Buddha was an Avatara, and I think they are flat wrong. Theosophy encourages me to have such stong convictions. Theosophy also requires me to respect the other's right to disagree. Theosophy is a free-for-all at times. I would not have it any other way!

    You and I think each other are flat wrong on many topics. Great! Theosophy is happy to see it. You have previously stated you are unhappy when people with stong convictions and belief systems (who happen to be Theosophists) tell you that you are wrong. I encourage such disagreeing. Sadly, you do not.
     
  9. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Thomas, et al ... no one here questions that Humanity is not the "paradigm for perfection." But I think we're dealing with a slight logical fallacy, or perhaps a good ol' classic catch 22 in our thinking on this one. If we aren't the `standard,' then that's fine, but then ... how can we possibly understand the standard - except relative to where we are, where we've been, and where we're all headed, spiritually ... or evolutionarily?

    Theosophy agrees with what MOST of the world's religions teach, EXOTERICALLY ... which is usually elaborated in more detail: that evolution of the Inner Being occurs through a descent into matter (from a more spiritual state of being, our Divine heritage). The densest point of incarnation is the stone, or mineral. Then we turn, and begin the ascent towards Spirit again. And on the way, we pass through the vegetable evolution, the animal evolution, the human evolution, and finally, the Kingdom of Souls, of God, or of Heaven, as it has been referred to in Christian teachings.

    The memories of these experiences - even in prior human incarnations - are not open to most of us, yet, but Nick has started a thread or two in months past regarding past-life memories, and probably dozens of such threads or discussions have taken place at C-R over the years. My own memories span 7 or 8 of the most recent previous incarnations of my own soul, and of my closest friends and associates I've experienced either memories, `co-memories,' or impressions from probably about 3 dozen different individuals at one point or another. In one or two cases, I am confident I can track up to 3 or 4 previous incarnations shared.

    It would, of course, be absurd for anyone to try and tell me that I've simply imagined these ... or that it's wish fulfilment, or that somehow, someday, I'll come to a more accurate, reasonable, or `Christian' explanation. No, Brother, not a chance. I've dismissed a couple of presumed `memories' already - things I believed perhaps 25 years ago, and which turn out to have been more or less placeholders in my memory for the simple fact of reincarnation. All of us, I am confident, will one day "know." And I'm sure I will be able to know better, more and from greater perspective(s) - yet one does not suddenly learn that mathematics, or biology, is bunk. One simply finds more uses, better applications, and previously unrecognized data ...

    Now that may seem presumptuous, but all I can do beyond a certain point is keep mum.

    What does this have to do with Humanity as a standard, or as not being the ideal for perfection? Everything. Those who can see with increasing clarity and accuracy the past few cycles of their own Soul's incarnations will gain understanding of the connections that bind us all. These connections can be observed, literally, organically, and vitally, from the physical (etheric) level, to the astral-emotional level, and within the Mental world our thoughts continually impact and influence those around us, 24/7 so to speak, while the thoughts of everyone in our immediate environment - as well as the greater mental world at large - affect us likewise.

    Anyone knowing the least bit about egregoires, and having the slightest faith or confidence in their actual existence ... should, and probably DOES, know all this to be true. Such a one therefore ought to know (if he has made the observation and faithfully recorded it) that the world of human thought (and Angelic) is not simply a confused, undirected, darkened mass of energies, since this refers - at best (or worst) - to the lower, denser portions of the astral plane.

    The higher regions (TO the extent that they have been experienced and recorded) will be known to him by, with and as - clarity, as the true home of the Soul (in its densest state of direct relation to the outer persona), and as having Illumination for their outstanding quality or characteristic.



    The lowest strata of the Mental world do not conduct and convey the Light of Higher Mind, and can therefore be difficult to navigate for folks such as ourselves - without our siddhis yet developed - but every disciple learns, in time, how to quickly bypass the most common pitfalls and move to "higher ground." Dissipating astral glamour is something the disciple must continue to work with, and the Illusions of lower mind continue to challenge even High Initiates, on occasion - as we know:
    "The [lower] mind is the great slayer of the Real. Let the disciple slay the slayer." (HPB, The Voice of the Silence)
    Every Initiate knows, either within the body or out of it, that his own prior incarnations, if looking in reverse, stretch far, far back to a time - either on this planet or another (the moon) - when he did not wear a human body. The stages immediately prior to our Soul's descent may not have been in the animal kingdom, unless we Individualized upon this globe, during Lemurian or Atlantean times. But the door to Individualized has been closed, temporarily, and thus - somewhere, somehow, it is perhaps almost accurate to say, that there really, really is, a youngest, meekest, `freshest' human SOUL.

    Exceptions will always arise, such as transfers from other planets, and animals whose association with us is such that unusual circumstances eventuate. A Heaven for dogs exists, of course, yet our animal friends are not likely to become humans in the current cycle, we are told ... although they may yet accompany us for several additional pet incarnations, gaining valuable experience which gives them a head start when they do start the Journey.

    Understanding our relationship with beloved pets, when either ourselves, our pets, or both are OUT of incarnation ... requires an understanding of Devachan - though of course this understanding can be found at the heart of every great religious teaching on the afterlife, esoteric and exoteric. One need not be scientifically or philosophically minded at all to grasp the simple truth that "in Christ, all are One." Too bad some of us still just can't get it, and see that Buddha Nature, and the idea of the Sangha (esoterically understood, not exoterically), conveys this same truth!

    I've meandered, and said little of what I intended. As for the evolution of the Kingdoms, Mineral through Human - and beyond, to the Kingdom of Heaven/God/Souls, and even to Shambhala/Sirius/etc. - a chart or two might help. Some will not care for charts, but the most colorful chart (below), which is Leadbeater's with my heavy editing, is meant to suggest the IDEA of the spiritual arrangement of the Occult Hierarchy of our planet. It is the hierarchy of Hierarchy, as it were ... paralleling what Alice Bailey later gave out with only minor differences.

    I made many notations, in color, and have tried to show that the LOGOS Transcendent, for our Planetary Scheme, has a reflection in the Hierarchy - as the Manu, Bodhisattva (Christ), and Maha Chohan. A second chart will set the record straight, if one bothers to contemplate the implications, for just how tiny our little Earth's evolution is - even relative to our own Solar System. We are one of SEVEN or TEN Planetary Schemes of Evolution, as Nick has pointed out again and again ... and all of our human evolution occurs, for all intents & purposes, upon the planes (or within the worlds) of Atma, Buddhi, Manas, Emotions (astral), and the Physical. Only our Parent Monad - Our Father Who art in Heaven - dwells within the 2nd Highest Plane of the System ... and only the Logoic consciousness, Planetary and Solar, normally functions upon the Highest Plane (Adi, or `First' ... the Divine).

    Seven or Ten Planetary Logoi ... with 60 billion human units (Eternal Pilgrims, reincarnating Individualities) and 140 billion deva units belonging to EARTH ALONE. Why in HEAVEN should we dare to think that a Great Scheme such as Saturn, or Jupiter, or Uranus might not hold many times this number ... for a combined total of trillions upon trillions of Pilgrims, JUST in our little Solar System. Perhaps one simply needs to become acquainted with the esoteric teachings, and discover that DOZENS or Orders, and types, or Spiritual entities populate the astral, Mental, Buddhic and Atmic spheres - existing in FOUR, FIVE, SIX and SEVEN dimensions (forget mathematics, this is not some kind of logical abstraction - this is lebensraum, to borrow the German)!!! {No, I do not mean the Nazi political idea, but what other word conveys the notion of SEVEN-D `SPACE' as the HOME of various entities and the NATIVE or natural focus of their consciousness?}

    HPB, of course, told us that SPACE is a Giant Entity ... and this is true of our Planetary Space as a whole (encompassing seven globes, and not just the one visible globe which is currently active), as well as the Solar System, local group of Systems, every Arm of our Spiral Galaxy - and the Galaxy as a whole, this ONE of so, so many billions.

    It would be ABSURD for anyone to believe, in this day and age, unless heavily stricken with the ostrich syndrome ... that Humanity is all alone in the Universe (Cosmos, even Solar System, as we'll soon discover). Yet exoteric religions, and the three Monotheistic traditions more than any other it would seem, have struggled - and will struggle - the most, as the New Revelation dawns ... that indeed, we are NOT the Divine Standard, and that in fact, we really ARE a bit like ants in an ant farm!!!

    The Great Lord (sic) from Venus, when He came, brought with Him honey bees and wheat, we are told, as gifts ... perhaps from Logos to Logos. I like to think of this as an ambassadorial gesture, though of course, the Great Sacrifice is why Sanat Kumara actually made this Journey, ~18 million years ago. This occurrence equates to the literal incarnation of the Earth Logos, upon the PHYSICAL PLANE, even though systemically He cannot "FALL" below the Atmic or Nirvanic (systemic) Plane. Ambassadors, from among the other Kumaras, have been periodically sent forth to Guide (and Guard) Humanity ... as this has been the pledge, made by the Ancient of Days, to oversee our evolution until its close during the current cycle.

    If it is said that we are like honey bees (or ants) to him, in terms of our individual consciousnesses, then perhaps the comparision is not far off. Yet we know that not a sparrow falls that the Lord does not know it, and I should think that if God loves birds, He probably gives a **** about people too, no?

    Man, I just don't get it. You don't have to like charts, but somewhere there's either a thorn, or a stone lodged in there, if you can't see that God loves all the world, and everybody, and every living creature in it! As the Silent Watcher, it is not even possible for Deity to intervene, and save us from ourselves - which is something that some of us might argue we desperately need right now!

    But even more than that, we need to learn the lesson(s) of selflessness, vs. selfISHness, and comradery vs. ego, cooperation vs. discord & chaos, solidarity vs. every man for himself ... and the fact that Peace must (begin to) prevail on Earth before Christ can return, not afterwards. Humanity is the Instrument, the DIVINE instrument, through which all this can, and must be accomplished. Christ and the Masters already move amongst us, and lend us every ounce of support that we have merited - and I'll bet a bunch that we haven't, too ... like on some kind of cosmic `loan,' so to speak. We make it through this, and we can pay it forward, with interest. But a smoldering cinder - and a planet full of Souls in pralaya - will not further the Plan. :eek:

    A chart or two:

    cwl-ch.gif rosicruc.gif

    jina3.jpg
    jina1.jpg jina2.jpg

    Credits to Leadbeater, Heindel (I think), and Jinarajadasa (x3) for the graphics ....​
     
  10. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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    Nick the Pilot,

    I had nothing to folow up on.

    Next topic?

    Andre
     
  11. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Andre,

    I thought it would be fun to take a look at conditions in Nirvana. Tell me how these ideas compare to those of your belief system.

    Nirvana as nothing but Light.
    “Try to imagine the whole universe filled with and consisting of an immense torrent of living light, and in it a vividness of life and an intensity of bliss beyond all description, a hundred thousand times beyond the greatest bliss of heaven. At first we feel nothing but bliss; we see nothing but the intensity of light; but gradually we begin to realize that even in this dazzling brightness there are brighter spots — nuclei, as it were — which are built of the light because there is nothing but the light, and yet through them somehow the light gleams out more brightly, and obtains a new quality which enables it to be perceptible upon other and lower planes, which without this would be altogether beneath the possibility of sensing its effulgence. And by degrees we begin to realize that these subsidiary suns are the great Ones, that these are Planetary Spirits, Great Angels, Karmic Deities, Buddhas, Christs and Masters, and that through Them the light and the life are flowing down to the lower planes.

    “Gradually, little by little, as we become more accustomed to the stupendous reality, we begin to see that, in a far lower sense, even we ourselves are a focus in that cosmic scheme, and that through us also, at our much lower level, the light and the life are flowing to those who are still further away-not from it, for we are all part of it and there is nothing else anywhere — but further from the realization of it, the comprehension of it, the experience of it.” (The Masters and the Path, pp. 197-199)
    Nirvana as a blinding experience.
    [When one enters Nirvana for the first time,] “Light, of course, is the first discovery, for it is the primary, overwhelming experience. I have spoken of "lightning-standing-still". Entry into the Nirvanic world is as into lightning, blinding, penetrating, drenching. One plunges into a sea of vibrant, vocal lightning. One cannot sink, but one has to learn to swim. One does not sink, because the light within makes one buoyant. It is impossible to conceive entry into this kingdom without the warrant of the awakened light within....” (George Arundale, Nirvana — An Occult Experience, page 58)
    Nirvana as being nothing but light, yet having points of light within the light.
    “Let me try to put my visions [into words]. I look upon the world, and I see our Lord the Sun expressed in myriad suns. Each monad I perceive to be a Sun in miniature. The Sun Divine throws off spark-suns charged with all His attributes. The process of evolution begins, and these sparks burst into color, or rather gradually. unfold in terms of color; rainbows with sun-hearts, or nuclei or centers. God's Light thus imprisoned in form begins its long pathway of transcending form, thus acquiring self-consciousness. Every atom of light is an atom of unconscious Divinity, slowly but surely fulfilling the will of the Sun that it shall become unfolded into self-conscious Divinity. Every atom is a Sun unconscious, and shall become a Sun self-conscious. And the Sun-Light, which is the Light that is free, shines upon the Sun-Light, which is the Light imprisoned; Light the wanderer in the darkness, until the Light within and the Light without blend into a perfect whole, earth-light kissing Heaven-Light and becoming Sun-Light. “Bathed in the Lightning-standing-still which is Nirvana, I perceive the imprisoned lightnings in all things. I perceive the Light which is dull — the savage; the Light which is bright — the man evolved; the Light which is glory — the Superman, the Master. I see color everywhere in process of transmutation, of glorification, of transcendence. There is no blackness anywhere in the sense of a negation of Light. God said: ‘Let there be Light.’ And there was and is light everywhere. His Light shineth even in our darkness.’ “And as before I might express my vision in terms of sound, of music, in terms of gloriously growing forms. For, as time passes, I begin to perceive that while my first impression found instant expression in the word ‘Light,’ and specially in the phrase ‘Lightning-standing-still,’ I now know that this Light conception is but a quality of Nirvana, an aspect, a facet of the diamond sphere. In truth, Nirvana is an essence of things and a flower of things.” (George Arundale, Nirvana — An Occult Experience, pages 16 - 18)
    George Arundale describes how he lives in a physical body during the day, yet rises up to Nirvanic consciousness at night, while his physical body is asleep:
    “Evening after evening I have shaken myself free from the shackles of the lower bodies and I have roamed in splendid regions, climbing from peak to peak of consciousness, standing on great summits of Buddhic and Nirvanic bliss. Morning after morning I return from these cherished pilgrimages and assume again the vestures of what now seems to be a prison-life. Plunge again and again I must into these shadow-worlds [the physical world], groping my way about, amidst confusion and clashing sounds of discord and of strife. Great is the strain of continual readjustment, and of the constant contrast between the Peace above and the War beneath. Are there no prospects of release? May I not let the lower worlds go? Have I not done with them? If I may leave them for the time, may I not leave them for all time? True, I am not unhappy, for there is work to do, and the Wardens of the Gates of the lower worlds are kindly. But at times I long for Nirvana unbroken by these constant descents into what seem to be the dungeons of life. I seem so terribly shut off from the wonders I know in the higher worlds, the glorious worlds within, with a sunshine and freedom in such vivid contrast with the darkness and restriction of these lower spheres....

    “Can I not escape my prison? Is release impossible? I would be finally free as all in Nirvana are free. I would for ever bask in the eternal sunshine in which they bathe. I too would for ever wander in that Elysian region, growing aDd yet so indescribably at rest, so free from all the irksomeness of prison life and discipline. As I thus yearn, suddenly the way of escape opens. From without a whisper comes: "Be it as you will. A friend will open to you for the last time your prison gates. Enter into freedom and return no more." And as I realize the wonderful possibility, there seems to come upon me the sense of a great expectancy without, of a great welcome waiting for me as I cast off for the last time my — ‘prison fetters‘ is the word that comes — and yet, looking back, I see that these fetters are in reality more vows than fetters, so I almost feel constrained to write prison-vows rather than prison-fetters. But at the time I do not think of them as vows. They seem fetters, and I am impatient to be rid of them. I resolve I will be free, and as I so resolve the I barriers fall away, and I find myself issuing forth again into the indescribable glories of unutterable freedom.” (George Arundale, Nirvana — An Occult Experience, pages 230 - 232)
    Here is Mr. Arundale’s account of achieving oneness with an orange grove:
    “I remember sitting at the window of my room in the hotel in which a party of us were staying, and I was listlessly dreaming. All of a sudden my half non-seeing eyes rested on the orange grove in the little valley beneath, and I found myself peculiarly, wonderfully, identified with the orange trees, with their very life and being. I was at my window, yet was I also in the orange grove — indeed, I was the orange grove. It was almost as if my consciousness flickered between George Arundale as George Arundale and George Arundale as the orange grove. I was two entities, yet one. And as I lived as the orange grove a gardener entered and began to pluck some of the oranges and to cut off some of the branches. All these things the gardener was doing to me. I rebelled — not as George Arundale might rebel, not with my mind and my will, but as orange groves apparently do rebel. I was conscious of discomfort, of loss, not exactly of pain but of something next door to it. I was the more discomforted because the gardener did not treat me reverently or affectionately, but as if I were inanimate with no feelings, with no capacity for sensation. Why could he not realise that the same life was in us both? If he bad only had the attitude of asking my permission, of begging my pardon, for his actions, of conveying to me that I could make others happy by sharing myself with them, I should not have minded so much. But he was callous, selfish, and treated the orange grove as a slave instead of as a comrade. He hurt me every time be plucked an orange or cut off a branch. With a different attitude on his part, he might have had all my oranges, all my branches, and we might have rejoiced together, for we could have worked together. As it was, being at his mercy and treated as his chattel, life was only just worth living, and I was a poor orange grove, because uncared for. “This experience of consciousness in the vegetable kingdom opened before my eyes In entirely new conception of consciousness at different levels of unfoldment, and of the implications of the all-embracing unity. I have never been the same since. I have never been able to pluck a flower, or even to uproot a weed, without as it were silently explaining my reasons to the plant or to the weed, requesting a sacrifice for some definite, I will not necessarily say larger, good. And I have never found any lack of cooperation.” (George Arundale, Nirvana — An Occult Experience, pages xi - xiii)
    Nirvana as being everywhere at once.
    “Any description of Nirvana which we may attempt must sound strange. No words that we can use can give even the least idea of such an experience as that, for all with which our minds are acquainted has long ago disappeared before that level is attained.... The man feels as if he were everywhere, but could focus anywhere within himself, and wherever for a moment the outpouring of force diminishes, that is for him a body.” (The Masters and the Path p. 200)
    ---

    Andre, how do these ideas match your belief system?
     
  12. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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    Nick the Pilot,

    I have not been on the Internet for about a week and so I must apologise. I have read the quotations you gave and will answer them with the below. I will not go into great detail.
    1: We hold that the universe is indeed filled with bountiful amounts of light, however there is a mixture of this light and darkness within this universe. The darkness makes up a greater proportion of the universe, for example a ratio of darkness to light is for example 1/9. In percentage, out of a 100% the light can be about 20% to 80% darkness. This does not have any effect on the intensity and depth of the light, in fact, the light appears even more the brighter.
    2: I agree entry in Nirvana is penetrating, as if your very spiritual being is penetrated with nothing but, pure, never-ending light.
    3: I enjoyed reading the quote on George Arundale rising up to Nirvanic consciousness whilst the physical him is asleep. This can be understood, as an individual not only explores when he is awake but does also when he is asleep.
    4: I say that Nirvana is all pervading.
    Andre
     
  13. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    -----====@_@====-----

    Andre, you said,
    "We hold that the universe is indeed filled with bountiful amounts of light...."

    --> My system agrees, as you can see from the "matter is Lightning-standing-still" quote. Science agrees, as science has come to see light and matter as merely two different forms of the same thing. We are merely Light in a different form.
    "I agree entry in Nirvana is penetrating, as if your very spiritual being is penetrated with nothing but, pure, never-ending light."

    --> This sounds good to me. Another way to look at it is, our very spiritual being IS nothing but, pure, never-ending light.
    "I enjoyed reading the quote on George Arundale rising up to Nirvanic consciousness whilst the physical him is asleep."
    --> This is a key goal of humanly existence, in my opinion. We are here to learn to live without the limitations of a human body. Once we have learned that, Nirvanic consciousness will be the next step.

    ~~~

    By the way, Andre, this kind of leads us into a new topic. Are you familiar with the astral body? Have you heard of the colors of the astral body? There are words in English that refer to these colors. We can said to be green with envy, or we can be a yellow-bellied coward. Love is always referred to as a rosy color, while anger is referred to as a bright red color. According to Theosophy, these are the corresponding colors in our aura (astral body). Feeling a particular emotion (for example, devotion), will cause the corresponding color (purple) to flash throughout our aura.
     
  14. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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    Re: -----====@_@====-----

    Nick the Pilot,
    I have never heard of the astral body. It sounds extremely interesting.
    Andre
     
  15. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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  16. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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  17. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    He has a very large website, doesn't he?

    I am obviously interested in such things.

    God Bless,
    Br.Bruce
     
  18. Manichaean Seek

    Manichaean Seek Manichaean Probationer

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    Br.Bruce

    Yes he has


    Andre
     
  19. ChristianMyst

    ChristianMyst New Member

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    I gather this must work in reverse as well.

    Nick, although I am with you on your views, you must be about out of pearls, lol. It seems there is an imbalance of representation of the alternative belief system that this Forum suggests. There is a stronger representation of "faith" than a learned, examined, questioned and demonstrable "belief" at play here, then the Forum name suggests. My question, is, is this forum about [defending] Theosophy. (If so, why would we bother? Theosophists have no interests in conversions, or desuading one against their faith.) Or, is it about those who have this different, but certainly not "lessor" belief system from what [this] board considers a non-mainstream philosophy, and who desire to enter into intelligent discussions about it, or reflect on its fundamentals to those who inquire?

    ChristianMyst
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2007
  20. ChristianMyst

    ChristianMyst New Member

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    Really. Such a very big Universe to be only about a few incidental humans of a few score years. Surely infinity can be put to better use then to the immediate anthropomorphisize needs yourself, Andre, and some chosen contemporaries. Is it not so very difficult to set yourself above all things and to center yourself at the core of the Creator, the Universe and the Meaning of Life. Can the Love and Compassion of Christianity be so truely limited as to entertain only the exaultedness of a very few, select creations? What is the value, What is the meaning, What is the purpose that is so great about yourself and your represented Man, in this infetesimal body of time that warrents so great an effort by some Absolute Creator? Can all of [This] be about you, and all of [That] too? If there is but a glimmer of doubt then it is worth exploring that spark.
     

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