Hi everyone, I have a question that I never quite figured out...if we were to die this very instant (as Christians) do we gain entry to heaven immediately or do we hang around until the final judgment? If we go to heaven right away then what's the point of having a final judgment?
A question about death & heaven
- Thread starter pedro0
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Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
Pedro,
Since I believe in reincarnation, I will give you such an answer. I believe we are judged after each incarnation. When incarnations become no longer necessary, the "final" Judgement is held at the end of that life.
Since I believe in reincarnation, I will give you such an answer. I believe we are judged after each incarnation. When incarnations become no longer necessary, the "final" Judgement is held at the end of that life.
An answer from a "conservative" Christian position...
The dead sleep in the ground until Christ comes.
Then the "dead in Christ" (the just) rise first and those who are alive (the just) in Christ are "caught up to meet them in the air". They are changed "in the twinkling of an eye" into our "incorruptable" bodies.
Then the dead unjust rise and join the living unjust and all behold the final judgement.
The just go to Heaven with Christ and live with Him for a thousand years, at which point the "New Jerusalem" comes down to a "cleansed" earth and the just live forever in the new Earth.
There are, I suppose, many versions of this story.
Best Regards,
Mark
The dead sleep in the ground until Christ comes.
Then the "dead in Christ" (the just) rise first and those who are alive (the just) in Christ are "caught up to meet them in the air". They are changed "in the twinkling of an eye" into our "incorruptable" bodies.
Then the dead unjust rise and join the living unjust and all behold the final judgement.
The just go to Heaven with Christ and live with Him for a thousand years, at which point the "New Jerusalem" comes down to a "cleansed" earth and the just live forever in the new Earth.
There are, I suppose, many versions of this story.
Best Regards,
Mark
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Prober said:
I agree, Prober. I suppose the same thing. And I have tested it, as I know you have. Ultimately, the first death, no matter how one tries to explain it, is traveled one person at a time. At least, that is the best sense I can make of it. I hold on to the hope that there is something beautiful in crossing this bridge or river or however we get there. All I know for now is that living with that hope is what matters.
Beinvenido, pedro0. (I am not sure if I have the right tense and stuff there (I may have just welcomed myself, lol, but I am too tired to look it up at the moment! What I mean, of course, is "welcome to you")
.InPeace,
InLove
Big Amen to that.
P.S. I think that phrase is "bien menudo" (er sumthin')
Just kidding...Welcome Pedro!
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Hi all
When you 'sleep' in the ground are you effectively dead until the Day of Judgement' or are you questioned, in the grave, about your actions during your life?
Just curious, it's just one of the many beliefs that are similar between Christianity and Islam (sometimes I forget who I am lol).
Salaam
When you 'sleep' in the ground are you effectively dead until the Day of Judgement' or are you questioned, in the grave, about your actions during your life?
Just curious, it's just one of the many beliefs that are similar between Christianity and Islam (sometimes I forget who I am lol).
Salaam
I believe "Yes".
Pathless
Fiercely Interdependent
I have a different idea about this. To me, the "first death" is death to self, or the small ego, and inviting Christ/Spirit/Self (the big cosmic Self of the Vedas, if you will) in. After that life is a continual process of "dying to self" and "living in the Spirit." In this way, deep peace is reached, even a kind of immortality (which has to do with realizing that all is One and not only ego but all boundaries and separation are illusion), so that the "second death" (death of the physical body), while still scary, becomes less of a big deal. Isn't there some scripture about that--that those who are "born again in Christ" or what-have-you are "unaffected by the second death"?
To relate back to the original question, I believe that when the individual undergoes this "first death," this dying to the small self/ego, she instantly enters heaven, although not in any afterlife sort of sense. But the gates of heaven do open, and then it's a progressive walk inside throughout the rest of life, which is more and more a letting go of selfish desires and more and more an allowing of Spirit to work through oneself.
Hope that's not too irrelevant to the question asked.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
To relate back to the original question, I believe that when the individual undergoes this "first death," this dying to the small self/ego, she instantly enters heaven, although not in any afterlife sort of sense. But the gates of heaven do open, and then it's a progressive walk inside throughout the rest of life, which is more and more a letting go of selfish desires and more and more an allowing of Spirit to work through oneself.
Hope that's not too irrelevant to the question asked.
Hi Pathless
Sorry I know this post was to somebody else but may I ask you a question about it.
You say she enters heaven but not in any afterlife way. I don't know how to put this without sounding silly
I am assuming you believe in reincarnation, so is heaven for you a sort of 'stop off' point for the soul before it is reborn? Sorry stop off is a daft way to put it but I don't know how to express my question. Is heaven for you a physical place or a spiritual state for the soul? Hope you manage to understand my question.Salaam
M
mee
Guest
[FONT=arial, helvetica][SIZE=-1]Do You Have an Immortal Spirit? - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica]What is the condition of the dead? And what happens to the spirit when a person dies? good link [/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=arial, helvetica]What is the condition of the dead? And what happens to the spirit when a person dies? good link [/FONT][/SIZE]
Orthodox belief is in line with this, Mark.
I think the only distinction is that those who are beatified (and these outnumber the 'official' lists by a significant factor) do not 'sleep' but continue the work by their witness and according to God's Will.
Catholicism and Orthodoxy believe in the 'communion of saints' as a living presence in the Church, they are part of the 'cloud of witnesses' (Hebrews 12:1) and can sometimes make their presence known among the living.
Even so, they have not yet attained the 'final form', which will happen "in the twinkling of an eye" – they live and subsist in Him (as do we) until the time is fulfilled and they, and pray God we, put on those "incorruptable" bodies.
Greetings, Pedro.
Thomas
Interesting. In your opinion, does the "saints under the altar" comment in Revelations refer to this?
Always kinda wondered...
M
mee
Guest
yes ,and that is what prober is doing , and when the time comes FOR THE EARTHLY RESURRECTION he will hear Jesus voice and then he can live in a paradise earth .JOHN 5;28-29that will be nice
China Cat Sunflower
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Either that or he's a rabbit in Wisconsin.
Chris
Chris
Amen Brother.
M
mee
Guest
Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice John 5;28 and the bible is inspired of God and non of the promises will fail to come true.
(Titus 1:2) upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,
Hi All--
I'm not stopping in to get involved in a big debate regarding this issue, firstly because I got some things I gotta do, but also because I see no reason to worry either way. I just wanted to throw this out there for consideration in case someone wants to consider it.
When I said I agreed with Mark, what I meant was I agree that there are many theories out there. Even in traditional Christian thought, some of these seem to conflict with one another. But I'd say whether I sleep or whether I am in a paradise of activity the minute I leave this existence as I know it now doesn't really matter to me. I just believe the spirit goes on.
I just wanted to say that.
InPeace,
InLove
I'm not stopping in to get involved in a big debate regarding this issue, firstly because I got some things I gotta do, but also because I see no reason to worry either way. I just wanted to throw this out there for consideration in case someone wants to consider it.
When I said I agreed with Mark, what I meant was I agree that there are many theories out there. Even in traditional Christian thought, some of these seem to conflict with one another. But I'd say whether I sleep or whether I am in a paradise of activity the minute I leave this existence as I know it now doesn't really matter to me. I just believe the spirit goes on.
I just wanted to say that.
InPeace,
InLove
In response to the first question, according to Jehova witnesses we don't 'hang around' as you put it, instead we 'fall asleep' until that day. So technically we enter judgment as soon as we die. you know sometimes when you sleep for hours and don't temporarily wake up now and again you never really know for how long you were sleeping. Hence thousands of years can feel like a second.