23 month old daughter talks about heaven

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Apr 29, 2007.

  1. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

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    ***Moderator Warning***

    Let's keep the discussion on topic please.

    I'd also like to remind people that we should all strive to avoid copyright infringements in our posts. That means no posting other people's work and passing it off as yours.

    Even if you post someone else's work with the actual author identified clearly in the post, you are required to get explicit permission to share the information. There are exceptions of course (many copyright laws have "fair use" clauses) but to be safe you should always be sure you have permission before posting someone else's work.

    The policy regarding the posting of links is something that needs to be clarified among moderators in private. Any further discussion of it in this thread is inappropriate.
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    Okay, I'm here - general chill out, please. :)

    I've tried to make the CoC less stringent, and think there's been some misunderstanding here - am raising the matter with Quahom and bgruagach.
     
  3. Miss Amy

    Miss Amy Amy

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    I am confused what exactly is the problem. Is it the fact that the story wasn't his own, the argument or general demeaner? I am newish and haven't seen any reprimanding before.
     
  4. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I was a "bit" abrupt, and for that I apologize, to all.

    v/r

    Joshua
     
  5. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

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    I hope this is the last off-topic post in what has been a very interesting thread. As a moderator I just want to clear up what the fuss was about.

    There was some confusion about whether it's OK to post links in messages or not. The basic rule is that it's not OK to post links when it's intended as advertising or to try and recruit people to other messageboards. It's OK to post links that are relevant to the discussion so long as you're actually participating in the discussion as well.

    We also need to discourage posting material that might constitute copyright infingement. Posts shouldn't be someone else's work posted without either attribution of the actual author or permission to share it here in the first place. It's safer to post a link to the original, let people read it themselves, and post your commentary here regarding that material.

    I hope that clears things up. Let's try and stay on topic now please. Any other questions or comments regarding moderation should be sent in private messages to moderators.
     
  6. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    BG,

    You said,

    "I hope that clears things up."

    --> Do I have to give back the baby...?
     
  7. bgruagach

    bgruagach eclectic Wiccan

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    Well, you could tell us who wrote the story about the baby. And if you post the link to it we moderators won't remove it (unless it's to something clearly inappropriate -- but I trust you so I know it won't be a problem.)
     
  8. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    23 month old daughter talks about heaven - Past Life Forum

    I gave the baby back to its true mother. It was sad, but the paternity suit would have never held up in court. And, I was running out of diapers!

    ~~~

    The story is interesting, in that it links Jesus with reincarnation -- something I consider to be rare. Most people (including myself) find the two concepts to be irreconcilable. However, it seems a person can believe in both.
     
  9. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    Nick, et al, this is one of the things I like most about Gnostic Christianity. I am a little squeamish to post the link directly, but if you're interested:

    Try visiting Wikipedia, and punching in `Esoteric Christianity.' The article on Gnosticism is a bit longer ... :)

    Of relevance to many of the posts, and threads, under Alt/Esoteric, I think you can see where Theosophy meets Christianity quite nicely.

    On a more personal note, I had conversations, from as early as 2 or 3 years old, with what I now believe to be the personality thoughtforms (kind of a mental representation, projected by the Soul) of two previous lives.

    I also had a very vivid experience of a certain Tibetan Lama - and especially His collective Ashram - while standing in the middle of Dunkin Donuts, looking at a fountain that kept the Hawaiian Punch stuff cycling. :p

    Yeah, it's very weird imagery, yet quite vividly impressed upon my 3 or 4 year old awareness in a totally unforgettable way. I am 98% certain I was in the body, but what I experienced was really beyond anything I could then relate to .... except that it was truly heavenly, and the sound I heard was of a collective OM, though of different tones or intonations, flowing smoothly, as if there were no beginning or ending - yet all were being "sung" naturally. The OM was also like, the sound of Mountains, as from a very high altitude ... though now my understand would be more a reference to Altai Himalaya than just, "way up a hill." This was all very unusual to me, though also rather matter-of-fact, such that I said nothing to no one.

    No earthly way this was a brain fart, or my imagination ... especially since, 15 or so years later, I finally came to recognize, and understand more about, just who that Lama really was. ;) :)

    Floating around, out of my body, during the one time that I can vividly recall it ... also sticks with me. Once someone has done this, even at 3 or 4 years old ... the whole notion of "imagining it" can usually be safely dismissed forever. ;)

    Sorry I don't have any direct encounters with Jesus. Not my cup of tea ...

    ~andrew
     
  10. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Andrew,

    Who was the Lama?
     
  11. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    DK
     
  12. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    Wow. Cool. You should start a thread on this. It sounds like something Theosophists would like to hear.
     
  13. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    lmao...
     
  14. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    ??

    What'd I say?
     
  15. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    nothing wrong Andrew, nothing wrong at all. Just the sailor in me...roflmao can't help it.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
  16. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Re: children's experiences with heaven

    Along these lines, I might add that I think many of the experiences we have as children either do not get shared at all, or perhaps get buried (or forgotten) until much later in life. In some cases, I do think our childhood upbringings, including religious experience and teachings, condition our later efforts to remember or interpret early events.

    This is why it is especially wonderful to hear of children who are able to speak directly, about things happening recently, or in the present, regarding Heaven, spiritual beings, out of the body experiences, and so forth.

    A good friend of mine from work, for instance, has spoken to me many dozens of times about her young son, maybe 5 or 6. For several years she has been attuned to his sharings, and she has treated everything he says with understanding, and a willingness to explore. :)

    This is so unlike the skepticism, and the conditioning, which I think a lot of parents introduce to their children, even unintentionally or unconsciously, along various lines.

    My friend in question is Christian, with a great interest in Gnosticism, and also an interest (and belief) in rebirth. She does not put it out of the realm of possibility that some of her son's experiences might include memories of, or impressions from, previous lives. And when her son speaks of `God,' which he has done on numerous occasions, with considerable detail and narrative, she tends to pay especially close attention and explore the experiences with him.

    Having met her son several times, I am glad to say that attributing these experiences to an overactive imagination is probably not the way to swiftly and objectively approach this particular (or any similar) situation ... as if the alacrity with which we can flash forth our shining Occam's Razor was somehow a measure of our worth, or worse yet, mirth. :eek:

    What can I say? As we look at the clouds, some people see a dog, others see a fish, sometimes there are angels dancing ... and I believe it all! ;)

    Namaskar ...
     
  17. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Andrew,

    How does your friend reconcile the idea that Christians can only go to Heaven or Hell after death, yet she believes in reincarnation?
     
  18. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    I'm not sure I buy into the idea that to be a Christian, one must necessarily believe in (eternal) Heaven and (eternal) Hell, while rejecting Reincarnation. I don't believe that Rebirth is out of keeping with what Christ taught. In fact, I think that any Christianity which lacks this teaching, although perhaps more popular - and thus mainstream in today's society - is missing something of the original message.

    In this, I am somewhat Gnostic in my approach, and Christian Esotericism appeals to me greatly. Annie Besant's `Esoteric Christianity' is right beside me here, and I think I've recommended it to my friend from work several times. Over the years, we've exchanged a great deal in terms of our spiritual interests, and I think we've both enjoyed seeing how our understandings have progressed and changed.

    She still attends a church, both for her children's sake as well as for her own (benefit, interest, devotion & commitment, etc.) and her husband's ... while I never have, at least in my adult life. A few years ago, this friend of mine might not have felt, or believed, that Christianity has lost part of its original message - to the point of such a teaching as Reincarnation.

    I think that now, she very much so believes this, but that doesn't stop her from believing in the Christian message of Love, and Brotherood. Sure, some of the dogma may be hard to reconcile ... but the kind of open, explorative conversations she has with her children, help to avoid the early crystallizing of these ideas.
     
  19. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Andrew,

    You said,

    "I'm not sure I buy into the idea that to be a Christian, one must necessarily believe in (eternal) Heaven and (eternal) Hell, while rejecting Reincarnation."

    --> The funny thing is, I believe in Heaven, Hell, and reincarnation. (Notice that I left the word "eternal" out.) I see no conflict between the three concepts at all.

    "I don't believe that Rebirth is out of keeping with what Christ taught."

    --> I firmly believe Jesus taught reincarnation.

    "My friend in question is Christian, with a great interest in Gnosticism, and also an interest (and belief) in rebirth."

    --> Without being intrusive, and while being respectful, I would be curious to find out what your friend thinks is the cause of the end of a chain of reincarnations.
     
  20. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~

    I believe in the hells of "purgatory," too, in terms of the astral plane ... what we must experience as a result of the vice and (especially the intentional, or knowing) shortcomings of our physical life.

    Tibetan Buddhism has long taught us about the lower bardo, via the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and there are the lokas of Hinduism. Spiritualism, also, has afforded much insight into the nature and details of the life after death. I still smile when I see people say things like, "we can never know (or cannot and will not know) until we die," or "it remains a mystery." Not so, not so.

    Heaven, too, in terms of the Theosophical Devachan, which is also a teaching from Hindusim, becomes everything that is taught in Christianity (minus the streets paved with gold) ... and the true timelessness of this state (mental plane consciousness, especially in the presence of the Soul) makes it seem `eternal.'

    All of this, within the context of Nirvana, and I was most impressed that on the Christian thread on Christ, My Bodhisattva it was pointed out that samsara, even including all of the things that seem to keep us "out" of Nirvana, actually also resides within Nirvana ... or at least, cannot be thought of as "mutually exclusive" (which is really just a mind trick). The way it was expressed, actually, it is that Nirvana can be experienced even while amidst sangsara, and I think this is conveyed in the expression, `The miracle is to walk on earth!' :)

    As for what my friend believes is the end cause of a chain of lives, I think she'd likely say that "we've learned what God has put us here to learn, and we're ready to move on to other lessons, elsewhere" ... or something similar. I will ask her though, next time I have a chance.
     

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