23 month old daughter talks about heaven

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Apr 29, 2007.

  1. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Andrew,

    I will curious to hear what she says. I feel that, in the long run, the one thing that keeps us reincarnating is karma. I cannot see how it could anything else. Have you read George Arundale's book on his experiences on the "Nirvanic level"? (Arundale claimed to be able to achieve Nirvanic consciousness, yet also spend time in his physical body, here on the physical plane.) He (and many other visitors to Nirvana) have always said that, once we visit Nirvana, returning to this physical plane is a painful experience for us. To me, only one thing can explain why we continually return to the pain of the physical plane -- karma.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    We've discussed this before...I see no issues with reincarnation and christianity...and believe it fit the mold Jesus taught...some say it was in the bible and extricated, some say it was never in there...many still see it in the bible...

    I think the cycle of rebirth ends with enlightenment...as our elder brother showed us...I don't feel it capable in one lifetime, yet one never knows how many lifetimes we've been working on it, nor how many Jesus had been.

    I do think Karma is not the be all and end all, I believe Jesus taught grace and grace can trump Karma....but we are involved. The key is getting the material ego which is controlling out of the way and letting the spiritual ego which allows to get in...hard to get the controller to allow though and hard to get the allower to control...
     
  3. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Wil,

    You said,

    "I see no issues with reincarnation and christianity..."

    --> This is the value of a comparative Religions Forum, in that we can see how various people approach a particular subject. I guess everyone has their interpretation of reincarnation and Christianity, and I am glad to see you have come to an understanding about the two concepts that works for you.

    "...some say it was in the bible and extricated, some say it was never in there...many still see it in the bible..."

    --> Yes, I have seen many threads and articles on the Internet on this subject.

    "I think the cycle of rebirth ends with enlightenment..."

    --> I would say the cycle of rebirth ends with Nirvana, not Enlightenment (I definitely see non-Nirvanic Enlightenment as a possibility, as do many Buddhists), so I guess it is just a matter of how we look at it. (I find the differences between Nirvana and Enlightenment to be a fascinating topic, so maybe someday we could start a thread on it.)

    "I do think Karma is not the be all and end all...."

    --> I agree. I see karma as mainly impacting the human level of existence. I do not see it as a factor for beings above and below the human level.

    "I believe Jesus taught grace and grace can trump Karma...."

    --> I suppose we can agree to disagree on this one.

    "The key is getting the material ego which is controlling out of the way and letting the spiritual ego which allows to get in..."

    --> I agree. But I am wondering if we are defining terms in the same way. Are you defining the Spiritual Ego as the Soul?
     
  4. greymare

    greymare New Member

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    when my middle son was about 2 or 3 (he is 16 now) I remember playing with him in the back yard, He threw a tantrum (as he often did) I picked him up and told him he was going to his room , He said, "i wanna go live with my other mother". To this I responded, what other mother . The other mother up there he said and pointed up to the sky. That floored me. Being the total rational mother that I am I said, Dont be so stupid, go to bed.
    Like I said, he is 16 now and nothing supernatural or unexplained has ever happened with us and it was totally innocent comment made by an small child but it definatly stopped me in my tracks.....
     
  5. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Grey,

    Many such cases have been documented. Has your son forgotten these memories? It is common for such children to start forgetting their previous incarnation at about age eight.
     
  6. earl

    earl ?

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    Welcome Greymare. Interesting story. Unsure if Nick's suggestion that children's past life recall gets fogged over around 8 is true but makes sense inasmuch as that's about the average age in cognitive development when children enter the stage Paigetans would typify as the stage when children have the capacity and inclination to view the material world in terms more concrete and categorical and thereby less fluidly. As to your son's age at time of event, I'll say that our first grandchild voiced many apparent "psychic" things between the age of 2 and 4. So. my perspective is that a child is most naturally attuned to subtle forms of awareness and able to voice it in terms that might come to the awareness of adults between 2 and 8. We now have a 3 month-old grandson and will be interested to see what he pipes up with spontaneously.:) If you're interested in exploring children's apparent past life recall, can't do better research-wise than the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson. have a good one, earl
     
  7. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

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    Interesting. I tend to think of young children as much more spiritually unadulterated than other people, and I see nothing extraordinary about children remembering their experiences before birth. I think it is probably quite natural but in our society we tend to feel that spirituality has to be learned, and so we consider it extraordinary for the very young to have powerful experiences and be adept enough at conveying them. I have memories of other lives stretching back to as early as I can remember- I think around four or five years old- and if a child is accepted as they are they do not necessarily lose them, though most of my life including my memories and thoughts are a bit cloudy before around age seven/eight.

    A thought on the tunnel- some have suggested this is a memory of birth, not death/rebirth.

    As for Christianity and reincarnation- I'm a Christian Druid and I believe in reincarnation. However, I do not believe in karma or any mechanistic explanation for reincarnation. I think people reincarnate for different reasons as part of God's plan- some to learn, some to teach, some simply for the sheer joy of experiencing incarnation. I've studied Buddhism a bit but I find the view of incarnation as suffering and pain unnecessary. There is a lot of joy and exquisite beauty I find in incarnation, and I think a big reason that I occasionally come back is just because I was created to take joy in the earth. Sure, I learn. And I teach. But I think the real message is love and joy. You can be joyful even when there is pain. As a Christian, I believe that some suffering is unnecessary- a result of human screw-ups (sin). So we need grace. But as a Druid, I believe that some destruction and pain is necessary for life in this realm, and we can choose to perceive it with suffering or we can embrace destruction with joy, knowing it leads to creation and more life. It is a choice in how to perceive the world. To be spirit is wonderful, but so is having a body. I cannot experience the feeling of wind on skin if I am the wind, you know? I used to long only for being spirit, sorrowful at my limitations, but over time... I am learning that there is much joy in those limitations as well. Ah, I'm not sure if I'm adequately explaining it.

    At any rate, I think it's selling life short to see it as suffering and pain-- something to escape. I see life as something to embrace, to love, to fully live. I am grateful to God for my incarnation, and I am grateful that God will overlook my many flaws and let me enter His Presence through grace when this incarnation is over. I wish for God to put me where She wills- if I am never to be incarnate again, so be it. If I come round and round for all eternity, so be it. I only hope to never lose sight of God's grace. It is what makes this life and the afterlife worth experiencing for me.
     
  8. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    I spoke with my friend via email, Nick, et al, and here is how she answered these questions ...
    As for the short answer to the person's question on the message board, I would probably say that my belief in the Christ and in what he taught us here by his earthly life doesn't mean that I believe the Christian dogma that developed after he left us. : )
    I firmly believe in the Christ, and I do believe he said "No one comes to the Father except by me" but I think he meant that in a positive way! I think he meant that he is the bridge between humanity and the Divine. And that he is the bridge for EVERYONE. (so I don't believe there is any such thing as a Christian or a non-Christian). We are all Christians in the sense that Christ loves us all equally and is there for all of us, whether we are aware of him or not.
    As for what is the end cause of a chain of lives, I believe pretty much what you said... I am Buddhist in that sense, that I do believe that we eventually learn what we DECIDED to come here to learn (I believe it is our choice), and at some point, we decide not to come back here, but to stay there. But our spirits do want to perfect themselves, and I believe that we usually are willing to come here to experience and to learn.
    I believe there is only one God, many religions, and many paths within those religions.... I love the Christ so very much, that I follow the Christian path because I just love talking and learning about Christ (and Jesus of Nazareth)... however, I am in love with all other religions also.

    And in a 2nd email she added:
    I forgot to add, of course, that the Gnostic texts point to the fact that reincarnation may have been part of the beliefs of early Christians.. so believing in it now is not so difficult for me, even if I didn't believe in Karma (which I do)...
    There you have it! :)
     
  9. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Hi everybody!

    Here is an excerpt from a book written by the lady who runs that reincarnation-of-children website.

    Carol Bowman - Past Life Center

    Chapter 10: The Four Signs

    Excerpt from Children's Past Lives by Carol Bowman

    When I talk to people of children's past life memories, invariably the first question they ask is: "How can you distinguish past life stories from fantasies?"

    At first I could answer by saying only, "Well, the parent just knows." Not a very satisfactory answer, I admit. But as I studied the cases that came in and listened to parents describe their experiences, I began to see and hear the same comments over and over, almost word for word. These comments were becoming very familiar. I found I could rely on them as a test of past life memories. When parents described their experiences to me for the first time, I found myself going down a mental check-list to help me decide if the memories they were describing were real or fantasy. This checklist evolved into the Four Signs.

    The more I spoke to parents and compared cases, the more I understood why these signs work. Past life memories sound, look, act, and feel distinctly different from fantasy because they issue from a different source. Fantasy is the mind at play. Past life memories, on the other hand, are full-bodied images of real events. The difference can be discerned by any sensitive observer who understands the signs.

    The Four Signs of Children's Past Life Memory are:

    1. Matter-of-Fact Tone

    Most past life memories are first communicated in statements of fact from the child. Quite spontaneously, while riding in a car, or playing on the kitchen floor, a young child will say, very matter-of-factly, "This is just like where I died," or, "My other mother used to make that." This switch to a matter-of-fact tone imparts a significance to the child's communication that suddenly commands the attention of a busy parent.

    2. Consistency Over Time

    Children will retell a past life experience repeatedly over a period of days, weeks, months, or years without significant changes in the story or details.
    Consistency over time marks a major difference between past life memory and fantasy. With fantasy, a child will fabricate a story—even an elaborate story—but rarely can he repeat it with the same details the next week, the next day, or even the next minute. Fantasies spout from the imagination of the child. They are volatile and soon embellished, changed, or forgotten altogether. But past life memories are a mental movie of real and personally significant events that actually happened. They are stable, like memories of crucial events from this life. Each time the story is told, the child looks inward and describes the same coherent image residing in his mind.

    3. Knowledge Beyond Experience

    If you hear your young child speak of things that you know he or she hasn't learned yet, or could not have been exposed to, it is likely you are hearing a past life memory. Remember, when evaluating this sign, that you, the parent,are the judge of what is beyond the experience of your own child.
    Obviously, it is easier to know what your child could or could not know if your child is very young and hasn't been far out of your range. You know what he has been exposed to through conversation, radio, TV, movies, and books. So, for example, when your one, two or three-year-old accurately describes the daily routine of a sailor, and correctly names the types of masts his ship had, and you know that this is something that he never learned, (you don't even know these details), this could be a sign of past life memory.

    4. Corresponding Behavior and Traits

    If you hear statements from your child that you suspect are describing a past life, look for behavior and physical traits that might be explained by the story. Think of any phobia, unusual mannerisms, unlearned skill or pronounced talent that would otherwise have no explanation or are out of place for your family. The same is true of physical traits: if your child tells you a story of a past life injury or death, and has a birthmark, a birth defect, or a chronic physical problem that matches the past life incident, this is evidence that the story is a real past life memory, and not fantasy.

    Conversely, if your child has an unexplainable behavior that baffles you, ask yourself if you recall anything your child has said that might be related to the unusual behavior. Be alert for snatches of conversation, or odd remarks. Or, as Tommy's mother did in one of the cases below, wait for the right opportunity and simply ask the child directly. But if no story emerges, don't force it. There may be another explanation, or your child simply does not remember.

    Not all past life memories show all four signs. The memories come in an infinite variety, and emerge in different ways and to different degrees for different children. But, as far as I've seen, the signs always appear in combination: some cases have as few as two, some have all four. I have yet to see a case with only one sign. Whatever the combination, no matter how rich or sparse the case, the signs always outline a coherent past life story. The best way to understand how they work together is to practice looking for them in the cases in this book. Even in cases where I highlight only one sign, others are usually visible in the story as well.

    These Four Signs are for parents to use with their own children. They point to subtle clues that only a person who knows the child well would be sensitive to. They depend on parents being able to spot changes of countenance and tone of voice that a stranger would miss; on the parents' awareness of what their young child has or hasn't been exposed to; and on the parents watching the child over a period of time, detecting small changes, remarkable consistencies, or unusual behaviors for that child.
    The Four Signs have nothing to do with the scientific proof of past life memories or reincarnation. They are tools for private assurance and recognition, not public proof. When the memories emerge, the questions you ask, the clues you listen for, should have nothing to do with proving the case to outsiders who don't know your child—even to neighbors or skeptical relatives. Proof is not the point. In fact, worrying about proof can bend your perception and block the flow of the memory. Healing and growth and understanding are the point.

    This is why you should not confuse the Four Signs with the methods of researchers like Dr. Stevenson. This is important. His methods are designed to verify the memories of children who are strangers to him. And his cases are not typical: they are the very rare cases of extreme past life memory. The Four Signs are appropriate for the more common cases, those where the child has only fragments and traces of memory.

    Of course, not all unusual statements or stories that children blurt out are past life memories. Children often say things that make their parents wonder, "Where did he get that?" I caution you not to over-react to every intriguing remark your child makes. You might be witnessing a past life memory. But odds are you are not. Children's minds are so wonderfully loose and alive, they come out with startling and fresh statements all the time. Fantasy and imagination are the natural occupation of young minds, and most of the time this torrent of wonder has nothing to do with past lives. Children often make believe they are living in the past, imitating story books, TV or movies.
    But sometimes the veil does lift, and children do speak of genuine past lives. If you know the signs, you can catch this magic moment when it happens.
    This is totally unfamiliar territory for most people. When a child suddenly starts talking about a past life, most parents are unnerved and confused. They feel their heart pulling them one way, their mind the other. Past lives just don't fit into their world view, and their rational mind would rather believe that the strange behavior has some logical explanation, somehow. At the same time, their heart feels the sincerity of the child, their body tingles with profound energy, and their intuition signals that something special and timeless is happening. This confusion is normal. I offer these Four Signs as compass points to orient heart and head both—to help you find your bearings within the different reality that rushes in and spins you around when your little one solemnly says, "I remember when I died."

    ------------------------

    A mother comments:

    "With these memories, she comes up with the same story consistently. When she tells a fantasy story, she will add pieces from other stories, from her imagination, and from fairy tales, mixing it all together with the story she's making up. I can identify these easily: she alters them and the stories always change. But, in this past life story, there is no fantasy about it. She is very matter-of-fact, and is very clear about the details. She has told this at least three times, and it's always consistent."

    From the case of Tommy Hibbert:

    "Around the same age, when Tommy was four or five, he lost a button from his pants and I didn't get around to sewing it on right away. So Tommy went and got a needle and thread, threaded the needle, and sewed that button on so expertly that I couldn't believe it. I had never taught him to sew and he had never even seen me do it. Amazed, I asked him, "Where on earth did you learn to sew buttons on like this?"

    "Well, we used to do it on my ship all of the time," he answered.

    "You were a sailor?"

    "Oh, yes." And then he told me about how his ship would creak in the night while he was lying in his bunk in what he described as an old sailing ship with tall masts and many ropes. This memory proved to be very important to his life because when he grew up he joined the Navy and went to sea for four years, hardly ever on land that whole time, and loved it."

    Copyright 1997 Carol Bowman and Steve Bowman. All rights reserved.
     
  10. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Hello,

    Believe it or not, I remember when I was being born. I have a memory of being in my mother's belly at one point, where I felt warmth around me. I could hear muffled voices coming from 'the outside.'
    Later, I remember being born. I felt extreme eagerness to 'come out' through the ray of light I saw at the end, mixed with a sense of a strong negativity (don't know how else to explain the feeling). I found myself leaving a dark, warm place coming out into cold air with bright light shining into my face. That is all I remember from the experience, but it stayed with me all my life.
    Now, as a Muslim, I am not supposed to believe that kind of stuff, but I have remembered it very well. It is interesting that there is a Muslim tradition that says that every human being that gets born, is touched by satan during his/her birth. Perhaps that might have been the negativity I had felt. This, Muslims explain, means that all of us will be subject to evil attacks around us, but we have to find a way to live in faith and reject the evil. When I was little, I was scrared to talk about it and did not tell anyone until I was about 7 years old.
    It is also interesting that I remember some stuff from my childhood which I am not supposed to remember, such as stuff when I was only few months old. I either used to have a very good memory :) or something strangely interesting has been happening to me.
    I have never had a memory that I might call a past life memory. My religion, of course, rejects such belief as well. But it is interesting that my father's cousin always made sure to tell me that I looked exactly like his deceased mother whenever he saw me. It got to the point where I would hide away from him when I saw him in distance, just so he does not tell me the same stuff over and over. I guess, a lot people are look a like, but this guy was really crazy about my supposed likeness to the woman, may she rest in peace.
    Anyway, continue talking to your daughter. It sounds like she may have quiet interesting things to tell you about her experience.

    Peace.
     
  11. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Amica,

    Have you ruled out the possibility that what you remembered was reincarnation?

    Have you heard of the little girl in Lebanon who 'remembers' living a previous life with a different family, found that family, told that family where some hidden money was buried, and told them things about her still-living elderly 'husband' that no one could have known except the old man's deceased wife?

    You said,

    "...I am not supposed to believe that kind of stuff...."

    --> I am sorry to hear that. I would never be part of a belief system that tells me what I must and must not believe.
     
  12. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Nick The Pilot--Hi,

    What I choose to believe is my free will. My religion (Islaam) does not force me to believe the way I do. I just accept what Islaam teaches as the Truth.

    Now, I am an open minded person. I never believed my memory as a reincarnation, but I have thought about it. I read many, many stories about reincarnation and I find them fascinating.

    Different religions look at it in various diffrent ways. Some totally reject the idea, accusing the people who claim past life memories of attempts to profit in some ways. Abrahamic religions of course reject it, because they teach of an Afterlife that is either Heaven or Hell. Some accuse satan of attacking people's minds, inserting false memories. And then of course, some famous psychologists believed that there is a Common Mind to which all of us are connected unconsciously.

    I am for research. Having the extrodinary memory of my own, I am open to the new possibilities :)
     
  13. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Amica,

    I am glad we are able to have this discussion on reincarnation.

    I am American, yet I have an uncanny ability to speak Japanese. Japanese people are always surprised to hear how well I speak Japanese. There is just no reason for me to speak Japanese this well. Why is my Japanese so good, when other people who have lived in Japan for decades cannot speak Japanese for beans? For me, there is only one answer — I lived in Japan in a previous lifetime, and nothing else can explain this.

    Does that make sense to you?

    I grew up in America as a Catholic. However, when I first went to Japan, I visited the large statue of Buddha just south of Tokyo.

    Japan Photo Gallery - Great Buddha of Kamakura

    When I walked into that courtyard, and saw that big statue of Buddha, I had the sensation of, "Home at last!" (I was quite surprised by that reaction at that time.) Later on, I confirmed that I had been a Buddhist monk in at least one previous lifetime. (I have since been able to remember some experiences from such previous lifetimes.) It makes sense to me that I was home at last — I was merely returning to a place of happiness from a previous lifetime.

    I am confused. You accept what Islam teaches as the Truth? Islam teaches against reincarnation? Yet you are interested to find out more about reincarnation?
     
  14. Amica

    Amica Member

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    Hi,

    :) Do not be confused. We Muslims are not narrow minded as some make us to be. In fact, no imam (Muslim priest) would ever tell his community not to engage in dialogue or not to learn about other people. At least, in my 28 years I have never heard an imam tell me that. We are encouraged to learn, to read, to explore. In fact, one of the first words of Qur'anic Revelation was: "Read! Read in the Name of Your Lord, who taught men ..."

    My religion teaches that there had been 125,000 prophets since the time of Adam (peace be upon him), with only 25 mentioned by name in the Holy Qur'an. Every group of people had one. The Message has been the same all along, but people understood it differently.

    Many of religions around the globe share certain believes or practices. One example is the Great Flood. Not only Abrahamic religious communities teach about the Great Flood, but other people have a version of the story as well.
    When I consider all that, it is hard to believe that there is no connection.

    No where in Qur'an is reincarnation mentioned. In fact, there are verses that make it clear that it is not possible. Such as the one where it is mentioned that people who had greatly sinned die, they would beg God Almighty to be brought back to life in order to become better, and God Almighty promises to tell them: "No."

    What does my memory mean, then? I do not know. I would like to find out :) First step is to talk to people who believe in reincarnation, who would recognize my memory to be one. Then I go from there, with the help from God Almighty. He works in mysterious ways, as Christians would often say. Certain things He reveals, others He conceals. If He wants me to find a way to realize what my memory/dream or whatever it is, then He will lead me to the knowledge.
     
  15. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Amica,

    Thank you for the discussion. It is a rare day, indeed, that I have a religious discussion with a Muslim. It sounds like you are searching to find out where reincarnation fits into your belief system. I wish you success on your search.

    Reincarnation is a key concept in my belief system. If you have any questions about reincarnation, please do not hesitate to ask.
     
  16. ChristineMarie

    ChristineMarie New Member

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    Hi Nick, I know this reply is 2 years + after your post about your daughter, but I just discovered it today! Your daughter's experience is amazing and wonderful. I have compiled over 70 stories about children being able to see and hear spirits of spirits. Some of the stories given to me were about the young child remembering being in Heaven and even talking to family members who died before the child was in born!!! My book is called Heaven Talks To Children, which has not yet been published.

    I hope to hear from you. God bless you.





     
  17. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    hi nick, just came across this cos of christinemarie's post; l came across this fun link thru stumble and was amazed at my son's past live description that he had lived in japan, because when he was a baby he did have eastern eyes!

    Past Life Analysis
     
  18. earl

    earl ?

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    Welcome ChristineMarie. Would be interested to read your book. Yes, there are countless, credible stories of young children's natural ability to sense "spirits" or remember past lives or evidence various psychic abilities. Our eldest grandson when between 2 and 3 could see "ghosts" and seemed to read thoughts. No longer evidences that and for most it seems that with age and getting "rooted" in this realm, those abilities diminsh. earl
     
  19. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    ChristineMarie,

    I am glad that you are are enjoying this thread. (By the way, it is not my daughter, it is the daughter of the person who originally told the story.) You said,

    "...talking to family members who died before the child was in born!!!"

    --> This makes sense to me. In my humble opinion, it also supports the idea of reincarnation. The opposite of reincarnation is called special creation, with the idea that each person is specially created for this incarnation, and does not return. I think that people who believe in special creation would have more of a problem with the idea that babies have dicussions with dead relatives before the babies are born. Such an idea makes more sense from a reincarnation perspective, so I am glad that such stories exist, and that they support the idea of reincarnation.

    nativeastral,

    Thanks for sharing that. For those of us who believe, there are hundreds of stories that support the idea of reincarnation. Your son's story does not surprise me at all.

    Tell your son that I, too, have had at least one previous life in Japan. Tell your son, "Yoku modotta ne!" (Let's see if he answers...)

    The thing I like about reincarnation is that it makes absolute, perfect, logical sense to me. I cannot see any flaw in the concept whatsoever. I invite everyone to ask questions and share their ideas about reincarnation.

    Here is a past life forum, specifically dedicated to past life memories of children.

    http://www.childpastlives.org/vBulletin/

    This Forum says that many children have memories of previous incarnations, but most children forget them by age seven or eight. Of course, most parents discourage or even punish children for telling such stories. What is fascinating is when parents take the children seriously, encourage the children to tell their "memories," and some parents even go further and record the stories. Fascinating.
     
  20. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    Spirit is eternal as it is energy.
    Energy can only be transformed according to science.
    We are spiritually animated material.
    So to me, reincarnation makes the most sense.
    We are a part of an endless cycle of life....birth/death/rebirth.
    How it works exactly is not clear, just as any of this genre of ideas is not verifiable scientifically, yet people Know and I place great stock in that.
    Nice little story.
    I have heard that Ibogaine has been used to help people recover some of that "behind the partition" memory, but I haven't had any experience with it so cannot affirm that.
     

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