Tao_Equus said:Beacause around the world every day there are thousands of cases where intervention would have saved suffering and life.
Oh, I see... So what do you make of Isaiah, 53: 2 - 12 ?
Well, like Postmaster was saying, what if it is we who cause the suffering? And if there is a God, is there life beyond this existence? And could the Christ be that intervention that has already taken place?
I understand what you are saying. But I truly think that much of the suffering and uncertainty could be alleviated if we didn’t spend so much time arguing over whose version is right. I know there are great big huge chunks of both historical and spiritual truth that have gone missing due to the human ambition to be right or powerful. One reason I know this is because in recent years, I have encountered some of these truths involving my own heritage that had been hidden from not only me, but also from the world—and to a great extent continue to be. Until which time we can see what we do to each other by insisting “we” are right and “they” are wrong, then humankind will continue to heap suffering upon itself. But there is something deep inside of me that tells me the intervention has taken place, we just cannot see it. So, perhaps there will be a time, either for us as individuals or all together or both, when that intervention will become clear—but it may indeed take a different kind of intervention this time. The intervention that causes us to realize all this stuff.Tao_Equus said:2000 years ago!! What meaning did that have for the natives of alaska, australia, kamchatka, patagonia? So they can find it now...ok.... but whose version of it is right? I have no doubt that it is the collective 'we' that causes some of it.
I certainly don’t have all the answers, TE. But I do think that if we, the human race, had been paying more attention to what is actually important, rather than on who is right or how to make money, promote ourselves, and be worshipped by others for it, we might have come a lot farther in alleviating a lot of things. Maybe not everything—I just don’t know. There are some folks who believe we choose to suffer from before the time we are born. I suppose that could be one way of looking at it. There are others who might say that the suffering in this world is there so we can look upon it and be moved to do something about it. There are lots of explanations. I don’t think any one in itself is complete, maybe. But there is something when it is all pieced together. Perhaps we are just still missing so many pieces?Tao_Equus said:But what about horrible painful child cancers? Natural disasters and chance accidents that result not in death but years of painful suffering? That these things take place shows that God is not a benevolent compassionate 'person' in the way you are, when you drew your above analogy.
2000 years ago!! What meaning did that have for the natives of alaska, australia, kamchatka, patagonia?
what we have here, i suppose, is an example of something happening through free choices despite those free choices being intended to create the opposite effect. at no point did jonah give up his free will - he only started getting up G!D's nose when he questioned the functioning of the system.17th Angel said:Take Jonah for example..... He tried the best he could to avoid god... And became annoyed by god...... He was a prophet.... Who had his arm twisted lol to tell the information he was given... He deserve's praise.... (Just trying to get an understanding of your concept.) Isn't all praise and glory to go to god? This isn't something you personally believe in?
hah, you've got that right.Postmaster said:G!D granted humans with the ability of prophecy, which is a dodgy art anyhow ask the Jews.
i agree - but why did humans not take this intervention upon themselves? it is like what some people say about the shoah (holocaust) - we shouldn't say "where was G!D?" but rather, "where were people?". you cannot possibly argue that free will has been suspended in these cases. it is simply a rejection of humanity that we should expect G!D to come charging out of the clouds and save us from ourselves. we are an evolved enough species now to know better than this.Tao_Equus said:Beacause around the world every day there are thousands of cases where intervention would have saved suffering and life.
nonsense. it was the combined might of the allied forces. if G!D was not prepared to save the victims of the holocaust, it was because we had the power to do so ourselves - it is to our discredit that we failed to act until it was too late. i actually find it deeply offensive that G!D used the victims of the holocaust to create israel - israel was well on the way to being created well before the second world war; the shoah and its survivors simply brought a "no surrender, no compromise, give one inch and we'll all be back in the ovens" attitude to the middle east.Dondi said:I believe He stopped Hitler and the Axis powers in their tracks because the man got too powerful and had to be brought down(sounds kinda like Lucifer, huh?). Despite the evil that Hitler did, G!D used the situation to bring about good, in the formation of Israel after the migration of displaced Jews. Not that He approved of six million Jews suffering in the Holocost, He could have gathered them some other way, but He saw fit to enact that particular prophesy in that manner since the opportunity arose. You get what I'm saying? God works in the undercurrents of world events.
cancer cannot exist and avoid affecting children - that would disrupt the rules of nature that G!D Established. G!D does not violate the laws of nature except in exceptional circumstances and, i am afraid, even horrible things happening to children is far from exceptional. i am also bound to point out, btw, that you may well bring cases of child cancer and so on to the table, but you cannot bring cases where perhaps the child might have got cancer, but didn't, for some other reason, maybe to do with G!D's larger Divine Plan. the point is that one can't actually tell what G!D is involved in at the level of cause and effect.Tao_Equus said:But what about horrible painful child cancers? Natural disasters and chance accidents that result not in death but years of painful suffering? That these things take place shows that G!D is not a benevolent compassionate 'person' in the way you are, when you drew your above analogy.
i disagree. we could alleviate the suffering and uncertainty by getting together and removing injustice and ending war and curing cancer and all these things, by *human action* - what are we waiting for? then we could happily continue arguing about the meaning of Texts. perhaps G!D might approve of such a course of action.InLove said:But I truly think that much of the suffering and uncertainty could be alleviated if we didn’t spend so much time arguing over whose version is right.
True but you cant prove it to be true tha God does intervene eitheri am also bound to point out, btw, that you may well bring cases of child cancer and so on to the table, but you cannot bring cases where perhaps the child might have got cancer, but didn't, for some other reason, maybe to do with G!D's larger Divine Plan. the point is that one can't actually tell what G!D is involved in at the level of cause and effect.
the thing is, t_e, is that i feel this is a rhetorical point. i can't speak for mosques and churches, but i don't see this stuff going on in synagogues. what people are concerned about in synagogues is precisely what i was complaining about in my earlier post - that we are not acting enough, but waiting for G!D to sort everything out for us instead of sorting it out for ourselves. your argument seems to me to be a sort of warmed-over C18th anti-clerical straw man which doesn't actually seem to reflect the reality i live in. quite apart from the fact that judaism doesn't see religion as going on in the synagogue, but as something that happens in even the smallest and mundane places and actions of life.Tao_Equus said:And this is the nub of it, the churches, mosques and synagogues of the world are full to overspilling with hypocracy[sic]. And the leaders love this hypocracy, they feed it by promoting the idea of sin in almost every pleasure. Its a horrible circular sick-logic, one honed to perfection down centuries.
didn't you read what i said? i said that we believe that G!D wants us to sort this stuff out for ourselves (i.e. find a cure for cancer) rather than wait for the Divine Health & Safety Executive. G!D has established natural laws but if we don't like the results from them then it is within our power to attempt to alter the outcome for good. thus we may break the laws of the sabbath to save a life.Tao_Equus said:True but you cant prove it to be true tha G!D does intervene either
Yes i did read what you said, and my response was to one part of it not the whole.didn't you read what i said? i said that we believe that G!D wants us to sort this stuff out for ourselves (i.e. find a cure for cancer) rather than wait for the Divine Health & Safety Executive. G!D has established natural laws but if we don't like the results from them then it is within our power to attempt to alter the outcome for good. thus we may break the laws of the sabbath to save a life.
Ok dear, wherever you are off to I wish you a wonderful timeHi Guys
Just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in....wait, no, that's not right...that's a First Edition tune. What I meant to say is that I just dropped in to say that I have to drop out for a couple of days (gotta go pack). But I'll come check here when I get back, and maybe I can comment some more then. I just wanted you to know I'm not ignoring your observations.
eh??? if that is what you have understood, you have seriously, seriously misread what i said. i said that *judaism* is for jews. *G!D*, on the other hand, Is by *definition* G!D for *everyone*, not just us. however, our *way of worshipping* G!D is intended for us alone, in contradistinction to that of islam and christianity, which maintain, to lesser and greater degrees, that their way is the best way for everyone.By your own words they are taught that they are G!D's children and that G!D is the G!D of Jews and Jews alone.
what exactly is your point here? that jews are not immune to being chauvinistic, greedy and corrupt? or that their religion does not prevent them being so? either way it does not make the religion mistaken unless it is the religion itself that teaches that such behaviour is acceptable - and it doesn't. what you are describing here is people who are, by any stretch of the imagination, committing some pretty major sins which they will have to answer for sooner or later. or have you some specific jews in mind? and are you suggesting that jews are nepotistic? if so, i think i ought to ask for some examples, before i let you get away with some rather unpleasant generalisations. george soros, for example, is about as powerful as jews get. so is alan greenspan. both feel pretty free and liberal about criticising other jews when they want to.Whether or not Jews, like yourself, learn that it is in action not in thought that the real compliance with G!D's plan is excersised in practice powerful Jews dont give a hoot. They care about power and are as corrupt and nepotic[sic] as any other group.
When did I liken your thoughts to the ideaology of C18? No, not by implication or otherwise. It was you that did so to me.i didn't call you any kind of fascist. i did say that you were basically lumping me in with every other "abrahamic" in order to impute to me notions of supremacy that i do not, in fact, hold. if anyone was calling anyone else fascist, it was you to me, at least by implication.
Exactly that.what exactly is your point here? that jews are not immune to being chauvinistic, greedy and corrupt?
Sometimes its always idiots that make it to material glory before everyone else, regardless of there faith and help through fellowship help can be seen everywhere though, you miss the biggest group Tao, the Anglo.