Mass in Latin again

[China Cat Sunflower]

I dunno. Isn't the whole thing supposed to be mystical-ish? I'm far out of the loop on this, but I keep wondering if a Wagner opera would be more edifying in English, and I have to think not. Not that I wouldn't appreciate an English translation in the programme. I like that I don't know what the words mean, that way they can be truly iconic as primal utterance, sound art if you will.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

That makes me think about pure language as primal-creative utterance. DNA, RNA, and etc. as proto-language. Music; the whole Pythagorean ratio thing as proto-language. Like the beauty of the original Arabic, the original Aramaic, only written in the mountains, the oceans, the plants and animals, the colors and the wind: the rhythms of life.

Chris

 

[Muslimwoman]

if that was true then their message would be 'don't change', but it isn't, the message is, 'spend every penny you have with us and we will sell you an empty promise of making you appear to be something that you're not ... but that we've convinced you is what you ought to be ... '

Hi Thomas

You seem to have a really good grasp of advertising and how fickle we 'customers' are. If I had saved the money I have spent over the years trying to change myself into the stereotype 'perfect' woman, I could transform an African village. Wish I had learnt that lesson long before I did.

Slight correction — Charles is head of the Anglican Church,

My apologies, I have never understood who all the different churches are or indeed why.

Ah no! The artist was a European Christian.

Woops, sorry I misunderstood.

I've probably stood enraptured in front of a piece of script that says 'danger, falling masonry' or 'toilets this way' ...

LOL. I shall admit this but only once. I sat in a cafe a couple of years ago looking at some arabic script on a sign over the raod. I was trying to learn the arabic alphabet, so carefully picked out the letters I recognised. I commented how beautiful the writing is and asked my hubby to read the word for me, which he did and then translated it - "slaughter house". It quite put me off my lunch.

Salaam
MW

 

[Muslimwoman]

Bishop Kallistos Ware, leader of the Greek Orthodox in the UK, speaks of his conversion when he simply walked into an Orthodox service in full flight, and was transported by the music and voice ...

Erm silly question, having complete ignorance of the Greek Orthodox Church, do they hold their services in Latin? Is it a Christian based religion?

Oh, so much to learn and so little time.

What really made me look into Islam was a ringtone I had been sent. OK that sounds stupid and fickle but it was a nasheed in arabic and I played it thousands of times, without the first clue as to what it was about. That was the start of my path, I looked up the nasheed translation, then read the Quran. Allah does indeed move in mysterious ways.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Chris —

I dunno. Isn't the whole thing supposed to be mystical-ish?

I beg your pardon ... hrrumph ... Supposed? ... gah! bloorgh! wha! ... SUPPOSED, SIR? ... How da ... you ... (wipes spittle off monitor) aargh!! ()

... and relax ...

You're spot on, Chris, the only thing I would say is that it is mystical ... the Latin Sacrament is a translation of the Greek Mysterium.

The Mass is a Mystical Rite.

At this point I should step out ... but I find myself impelled to wonder if the 'modernisers' and 'liberalisers' of Vatican II were working under the assumption that the 'common man' is in fact too stupid to possess any spiritual or even aesthetic sensibility, and too brutish to be able to sit quietly for any length of time ... so let's get rid of all that mystical stuff which is beyond them anyway, and make everything as quick and simple as possible ... what we have come to call 'dumbing down' ... I wonder if it ever occurred to the modernisers that if people were interested, they might find out for themselves?

The vernacular Mass can be spiritual, and quite moving ... but the very mundanity (?) of language — and especially the poor English of the current missal — militates against it.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Erm silly question, having complete ignorance of the Greek Orthodox Church, do they hold their services in Latin? Is it a Christian based religion?

Oh no, no, no ... no question that gives me the chance to bang on about God is ever a silly question.

(In fact a famous philosopher, who's name escapes me, once observed that the only 'real' philosophical questions are the ones than children ask ...)

They hold their services in Greek — and I believe classical Greek, not the commonly-spoken stuff. And a lot of it is sung. And it's very symbolically rich, with incense and bells (which we largely got rid of at Vatican II) ...

The 'differences' between Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox are minimal, and trace a tragic history of politics and squabbling between siblings, mostly because of geopolitics as the Holy Roman Empire fractured and collapsed, so we were separated for a while, and theology went in different directions.

Since Vatican II (a Council of the Church that says 'where do we go from here') in the 1960s Rome has recognised and apologised for any offences offered. We are supposedly 'in communion' with each other, the late Pope John Paul II referred to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as the 'two lungs' of the one body, but there is still a long way to go.

We are 'largely' theologically the same, the differences being technical rather than doctrinal ... whereas the differences between Catholic/Orthodox and other denominations are so fundamental that we do not attend each other's services ... Cath/Orth would not attend a service in an Anglican, Protestant or other denomination because their liturgies are regarded as incomplete and therefore 'defective' in the technical sense.

Oh, so much to learn and so little time.

Indeed!

Allah does indeed move in mysterious ways.

Praise be.

Pax,

Thomas

 

[Muslimwoman]

So do Greek Orthodox have the equivalent of the Vatican?

I am saddened that a Catholic wouldn't go to another church, is the praise of G-d not more important than what words are said? Not trying to be rude but I believe prayer comes from the heart, not from words or actions.

 

[Thomas]

So do Greek Orthodox have the equivalent of the Vatican?

Not quite. It involves matters of jurisdiction.

Originally there were five patriarchs, in Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. They held equal status, but Rome was considered 'first amongst equals' in the same way that Peter was considered the leaders of the Apostles.

By the fifth century there were distinct signs of western and eastern theological ideas — really these were schools within the Faith — but politics and other pressures lead to a hardening of position, the others disputed the de facto authority of Rome, and by the 11th century each side was calling the other heretical. A split ensued.

Now there are different Orthodoxies — Greek Orthodox, Russian, Serbian, Coptic, Syriac, Malankara, Armenian ... the list goes on ... some patriarchs call themselves popes.

Recently the various patriarchates have become so interwoven with national aspirations its hard to separate. The Serbian Orthodox church has declared itself a 'special case', and Greek nationalists burnt effigies of the Pope whn he announced his intention to visit Greece. For the Greek Orthodox Church to come into full communion with Rome, for example, would be seen as a surrender of national sovereignty. It's all very sad.

I am saddened that a Catholic wouldn't go to another church, is the praise of G-d not more important than what words are said? Not trying to be rude but I believe prayer comes from the heart, not from words or actions.

Indeed, and Christians of different denominations may and do pray together, but the Mass is something else.

The Catholic/Orthodox believe the Trinity, the choirs of angels and the communion of the faithful, living and dead, are assembled together when Mass is celebrated. We believe it to be a Mystery in, through and by which the Holy Spirit is active within us.

We also believe that in the Celebration of the Rite, certain liturgical words and actions invite and invoke the Presence of God — this is the essential Mystery of the Mass — and these follow the instructions given by Christ at the Last Supper.

The Reformation denominations have declared that Mystery void, and regard it as superstition, irrational and illogical. The Mass is, for that reason, in our eyes, meaningless and empty. It is a memorial service, not a Mystery.

Thus for us, the non Catholic/Orthodox mass is like an empty shell — its theology denies or rather disallows what we believe. Why would we go, to practice the denial of the very thing we believe in?

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

The Catholic/Orthodox believe the Trinity, the choirs of angels and the communion of the faithful, living and dead, are assembled together when Mass is celebrated. We believe it to be a Mystery in, through and by which the Holy Spirit is active within us.

We also believe that in the Celebration of the Rite, certain liturgical words and actions invite and invoke the Presence of God — this is the essential Mystery of the Mass — and these follow the instructions given by Christ at the Last Supper.

The Reformation denominations have declared that Mystery void, and regard it as superstition, irrational and illogical. The Mass is, for that reason, in our eyes, meaningless and empty. It is a memorial service, not a Mystery.

Thus for us, the non Catholic/Orthodox mass is like an empty shell — its theology denies or rather disallows what we believe. Why would we go, to practice the denial of the very thing we believe in?

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." - Matthew 18:20

Isn't it true that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? That the Holy Spirit is imparted to believers for daily living. That it is a repeat refrain in scripture to walk in the Spirit ("If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." - Galatians 5:25).

When Jesus spoke ton the woman at the well, He told her that, "... the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

If you think that the Spirit of God could only be in the Catholic Mass, you are sadly mistaken, my friend. God is looking for true worshippers that are not necessarily within conventional circles.

Or do you remember what happened when the disciples found those not of their circle who were doing things in Jesus' name?

"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." - Mark 9:38-40

BTW, I, for one, do not regard the the Mystery in the Catholic Mass to be void. There are more than a few Protestant denominations who feel likewise. It's just we do not think you have a monopoly on Presense of God, that's all.

 

[Thomas]

If you think that the Spirit of God could only be in the Catholic Mass, you are sadly mistaken, my friend.

That's not what I think at all, nor is it what I said ... but I do believe in the Transubstantiation and thus in the Eucharistic Presence, and only the Catholic and Orthodox believe that as a matter of doctrine — the Lutherans are unsure about it, and the Protestant denominations expressly refute it.

Whether or what happens despite them (and us) is another matter, and I place no limitation upon the Power of God to do as he wills in that regard.

It's just we do not think you have a monopoly on Presense of God, that's all.

It's not a case of monopoly, it's a case of the post-Reformation denominations saying 'that's superstitious nonsense.'

It's not that we're the only ones who've got it, it's a case that we're the only ones who actually believe its possible.

Personally, I wish everybody believed in it.

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

That's not what I think at all, nor is it what I said ... but I do believe in the Transubstantiation and thus in the Eucharistic Presence, and only the Catholic and Orthodox believe that as a matter of doctrine — the Lutherans are unsure about it, and the Protestant denominations expressly refute it.

Whether or what happens despite them (and us) is another matter, and I place no limitation upon the Power of God to do as he wills in that regard.

We do celebrate the Lord's Supper. There is preparation before hand in that we examine our hearts as prescribed in I Corinthians 11, so that we do not partake of the Lord's Supper unworthily. And it is a humbling experience, for we remember the suffering and the sacrifice that Christ made on our behalf. The elements remind of of His body that was broken (and ripped, slashed bloodied) for us and how His blood poured down the Cross, so that "he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (II Cor. 5:22) I find myself weeping profusely sometimes, but I feel His Love and Grace upon me, in my heart.

I don't know what it is you are experiencing different than that in regard to the Eucharest. Are there words to describe it?

It's not that we're the only ones who've got it, it's a case that we're the only ones who actually believe its possible.

Personally, I wish everybody believed in it.

Why do you think it so important to subscribe to the idea that Christ's literal Body and Blood are present in the elements? Do you not think that God honors all those who remember to observe the Lord's Supper, regardless of denominational persuasion? Why is it so important that His Body and Blood be in the elements anyway? What if He IS in the Lord's Supper in Protestant churches? Maybe He IS Transubstantiated in our observance, but we just don't realize it.

 

[Muslimwoman]

the others disputed the de facto authority of Rome, and by the 11th century each side was calling the other heretical. A split ensued.

Thomas, thank you so much, what an informative post. I am ashamed to say I know nothing at all of the Catholic faith so please forgive me if I ask rude or daft questions.

This seems to be an inherent problem within all religions, as the numbers of followers of a faith grow, keeping power and control in one small place becomes difficult, if not imposible.

Now there are different Orthodoxies — Greek Orthodox, Russian, Serbian, Coptic, Syriac, Malankara, Armenian ... the list goes on ... some patriarchs call themselves popes.

I believe the Christians in Egypt are Coptic? I had been confused by their being called Christians but when I saw a procession in the street one day they were carrying items which very much reminded me of Catholic and Greek Orthodox religious symbols, which is when I realised they were more Catholic based. Their priests dress as Greek priests but their Nuns dress as Catholic. All very confusing to an outsider.

For the Greek Orthodox Church to come into full communion with Rome, for example, would be seen as a surrender of national sovereignty. It's all very sad.

Oh dear me, faith has no borders, so why do men insist on placing borders where none should be?!

Indeed, and Christians of different denominations may and do pray together, but the Mass is something else.

Okay, daft question time. Is Mass when you take communion? Is that perhaps something to do with communing with G-d?

certain liturgical words and actions invite and invoke the Presence of God — this is the essential Mystery of the Mass — and these follow the instructions given by Christ at the Last Supper.

So are these words spoken in Aramaic or Latin? And are they spoken by everyone or just by the priests?

Sorry you will need to explain the instructions given by Jesus (pbuh) at the last supper. Or are you talking about the blood and body of Christ?

Sorry so much to learn and such a little brain to do it with.

Thus for us, the non Catholic/Orthodox mass is like an empty shell — its theology denies or rather disallows what we believe. Why would we go, to practice the denial of the very thing we believe in?

Sorry my question wasn't intended to be rude, I just have difficulty understanding the need for such rituals in order to pray to G-d. However, with your explanation of what the Catholic Mass is, I now see why the rituals are important for you.

Salaam
MW

 

[Thomas]

Why do you think it so important to subscribe to the idea that Christ's literal Body and Blood are present in the elements? Do you not think that God honors all those who remember to observe the Lord's Supper, regardless of denominational persuasion? Why is it so important that His Body and Blood be in the elements anyway? What if He IS in the Lord's Supper in Protestant churches? Maybe He IS Transubstantiated in our observance, but we just don't realize it.

"This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me. And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men." Matthew 15:8-9.

The fundamental difference between what Catholics and Orthodox believe, and what post-Reformations denominations believe, is that the C/O believe explicitly and literally what Christ said. After the Reformation the various schismatic denominations began to moderate and interpret His teachings according to their own ideas and agendas.

I don't hold the difference between us, Dondi, but I will not pretend it is not there — that would be a lie — nor do I believe in the Catholic Church for its own sake, I returned to the Catholic Church when I recovered my faith because they teach precisely what the Apostles, the Fathers and the Church taught from the very beginning. That was the Church I wanted, and the Catholic is the only one that continues without any alteration to those traditions.

There's an intersting interview here:
The World Seen From Rome
with David Warner, an Evangelical Protestant Minister who converted to Catholicism — his reasons aare fundamentally the same as mine.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

I believe the Christians in Egypt are Coptic? I had been confused by their being called Christians but when I saw a procession in the street one day they were carrying items which very much reminded me of Catholic and Greek Orthodox religious symbols, which is when I realised they were more Catholic based. Their priests dress as Greek priests but their Nuns dress as Catholic. All very confusing to an outsider.

I know. We do it on purpose, to keep people guessing.

Oh dear me, faith has no borders, so why do men insist on placing borders where none should be?!

Nestorius, The Bishop of Alexandria, broke with the body of the Church at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. The Coptic Church holds that Christ is "One Nature — the Logos Incarnate," of the full humanity and full divinity. The Church understanding is that Christ is in two natures in one person, one fully human and one fully divine. If Christ is in full humanity and in full divinity, then He is separate in two persons, Nestorius believed. This is the doctrinal perception that makes the difference which separates us. The point is very obscure, but the ramifications are too significant to be ignored.

Okay, daft question time. Is Mass when you take communion? Is that perhaps something to do with communing with G-d?

One of my favourite sayings is from Islam: "God is closer to you than your jugular vein." I believe that implicitly.

So man can pray at any time, and there is an obligation upon him to do so. This is most explicit in Islam. But the Mass is something else.

At Mass we pray to God, and we commune with God exclusively — the idea of Mass is that here is a special time when we rest in God and place ourselves entirely at his disposal. During the rest of the week we serve Him in the world, but at Mass, in a way that is a Mystery and beyond all human comprehension, we are in His space, His time, His world...

... and in the Mass, in the taking of the bread and wine, we are present at the table of the Last Supper. Consider "The Last Supper" by Michaelangelo. Christ sits with the apostles at His side, all on one side of the table. The other side is open ... to us.

God is present, always and everywhere, in us and in the world, through the Immanent Presence of the Holy Spirit, but in the Eucharist, we believe that God is present in a unique and superabundant and superlative way in the Gift of His only Son to us — individually. This is not a memorial, not the enactment of an event that happened in the past, but in the presence of the Eternal.

So are these words spoken in Aramaic or Latin? And are they spoken by everyone or just by the priests?

Traditionally in Latin in the West and Greek in the East. But in the West since the 60s in the vernacular. The Priest leads the congregation in offering the sacrifice.

Sorry you will need to explain the instructions given by Jesus (pbuh) at the last supper. Or are you talking about the blood and body of Christ?

Oooh, deep theology here. Our Lord told His disciples to "Take this bread, this is my body which will be given up for you... " and the wine "the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant... "

Not, 'this is a symbol of my body' or 'this signifies my body' but 'this is my body' and He knew what He was saying. And so did His disciples.

Another way of looking at it is to understand that what He said to the Apostles was for all, and therefore He is talking to me, here, now, today. I am to take this wafer, and it is His body — the wafer is His 'Real Presence' in the world today as much as the man walking round Judea 2,000 years ago was really present then.

Scripture tells us that many of His disciples, after hearing His announcement about the Eucharist, murmured among themselves, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" (John 6:60) and they returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him (John 6:66). Our Lord turned to His disciples, "Will you also go away?" (John 6:67).

We believe the outward appearance of the bread and wine maintains its material or physical form, but has been spiritually and substantially changed.

Sorry my question wasn't intended to be rude, I just have difficulty understanding the need for such rituals in order to pray to G-d.

This is so much beyond prayer. Pray is what we say, what we do. Man was created for prayer.

The Eucharist is what God does for us.

However, with your explanation of what the Catholic Mass is, I now see why the rituals are important for you.

They stand at the very heart of Catholic life.

My His Peace be with you always,

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

Thomas,

If someone from another denomination comes to Catholic Mass 1) will or can he/she be permitted to partake in the Eucharest and, if so, 2) will he/she experience this Mystery for which you speak of, assuming he is seeking God with pure intentions?

 

[ardenz]

I agree, Thomas - about the folk music at mass.

They were all at it when I was growing up.. those Fr. Trendies with guitars.

Now If I go to a church (not a lot) I like a bit of choir and organ music (preferably loud). I was in a choir for a while and we did gregorian chant and it was amazing to perform unaccompanied in Latin a very uplifting experience

 

[Thomas]

Hi Dondi —

If someone from another denomination comes to Catholic Mass 1) will or can he/she be permitted to partake in the Eucharest

Answer I:
The U.S. bishops explain, "We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s prayer for us ‘that they may all be one’ (John 17:21).

"Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law. . . . "

Scripture is clear that partaking of the Eucharist is among the highest signs of Christian unity: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17). For this reason, it is normally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive Holy Communion, for to do so would be to proclaim a unity to exist that, regrettably, does not.

Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died" (1 Cor. 11:29–30).
Who Can Receive Communion?

The answer revolves around the issue of unity — we profess one communion, one body in Christ. The question then is why are we not one body, but many bodies? Who separated themselves from whom? And how is that body perceived? How is the Liturgy of the Mass to be understood?

If they don't believe in whaat we're doing, then why want to be part of it?

If they do believe as a Catholic believes, why are they not members of that Church? If they chose not to be counted among that body, then their participation is a priori false and invalid.

ANSWER II
Anybody can receive communion on the simple basis that no-one is examined before they approach. What lives in the heart is known only to God.

+++

and, if so, 2) will he/she experience this Mystery for which you speak of, assuming he is seeking God with pure intentions?

If a person is called, that person will come. God will have called them, and He will have called them for a reason. The doors are open to all whilst Mass is being said.

The Eucharist is His gift, given to whom He so chooses.

But will they experience anything?

Not necessarily. It is a sublime gift, beyond all human comprehension, it is a gift that utterly transcends the sensorium — belief in the Eucharist is a pure act of faith — and that faith is itself a gift.

"No one has seen the Father at any time, except the Son, who reveals Him to us, and no one sees the Son except in the Holy Spirit, who reveals us in Himself, and in knowing the Son in the Holy Spirit, we know the Father also."
(a conflation of Scripture and the writings of St Irenaeus of Lyon, paraphrase mine)

"Now we see as though through a glass, and darkly, but then we shall see Him, face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known." 1 Corinthians 13:12

These are painful questions, Dondi, and painful answers, but we have to deal in realities. To answer yes to both implies nothing has any real meaning.

Thomas

 

[lunamoth]

An upfront answer Thomas (re: the Eucharist). I guess this is what hurts me about the Catholic statements being affirmed lately. I am part of the Church, I am part of the one, holy, catholic faith. That you do not recognize me as part of the Body, and think that when I consume the Eucharist you think it is nothing (or worse), makes me realize that you can't consider me your sister in Christ.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Shalom Dondi,

>I don't know what it is you are experiencing different than that in regard >to the Eucharest. Are there words to describe it?

There is a difference Dondi. Transubstantiation does occur in the Communion Cup. It is a Grace.

I would say it doesn't have to happen. The Mass has to be performed correctly in the right state of mind. I visited a particular Catholic church in my area and I wasn't impressed.

But yes, it might be good to go back a step to the old ritual.

Bishop Jason has been a stickler for the old ways. There are other independent Catholics as well.


>Why do you think it so important to subscribe to the idea that Christ's >literal Body and Blood are present in the elements?

You asked this question before I said I'd get back to you.
Well my Teachers have answered this one. If you are so loving, if you demonstrate your love in acts of love for the benefit of your fellow human beings, then eventually you would not need the Grace of Communion- Christ would be living in you. "Not I but Christ in me."

For the rest of us, who aren't up to standard, we have the medicine of Communion which brings us into relationship with our Lord.

>Why is it so important that His Body and Blood be in the elements >anyway?

And so you ask, why can't the sermon, the prayers, the symbols, give us the healing we need and bring us closer to Christ? Because our flesh is corrupt, and we need to bypass our mind and go directly to the flesh and transform it.

the flesh of Man had to become reformed – that our Communion cup does not seek its way to the mind but to the flesh; and this is because it is there where change is needed now; and here also the only place where change can effect.

The receiving of Christ's Body into that of our own, is that way to bring our own self and higher mind into our earthly existence.

– but here in Communion, there is Christ Himself reconnecting the nerves, through His Body and Blood...

>What if He IS in the Lord's Supper in Protestant churches? Maybe He IS >Transubstantiated in our observance, but we just don't realize it.

It may well be....

Faithfully,
Br.Bruce

 

[Muslimwoman]

I know. We do it on purpose, to keep people guessing.

The good news for you is that it is working lol

Nestorius, The Bishop of Alexandria, broke with the body of the Church at the Council of Chalcedon in 451.

I am sorry Thomas but I am just lost when it comes to this topic. InLove has been very patiently trying to teach me about the Jesus (pbuh) as man and Jesus (pbuh) as divine issue but I just have a problem understanding it. For some strange reason my brain just won't go there, hence my conversion to Islam. So I am afraid the diference in belief between Catholics and other Christian sects goes way over my head.

One of my favourite sayings is from Islam: "God is closer to you than your jugular vein." I believe that implicitly.

So do I, no surprise there then

So man can pray at any time, and there is an obligation upon him to do so. This is most explicit in Islam. But the Mass is something else.

From your description of the Mass (forgive me if I misunderstand you), this is what we, in Islam, try to achieve every time we pray. It is not just about having a chat with G-d or praising Him but actually trying to present our soul before G-d. We have prayers where we can ask for help or guidance but the 5 obligatory prayers are for this purpose, in the hope that G-d will recognise our souls. I may not be explaining that very well. However, I generally pray in my home, so this can be achieved without ritual and congregation or anyone to intercede with G-d for us.

So do you believe that you can present your soul before G-d, in his realm, without Mass?

... and in the Mass, in the taking of the bread and wine, we are present at the table of the Last Supper.

Is that metaphorically or physically at the last supper?

God is present, always and everywhere, in us and in the world, through the Immanent Presence of the Holy Spirit, but in the Eucharist, we believe that God is present in a unique and superabundant and superlative way in the Gift of His only Son to us — individually. This is not a memorial, not the enactment of an event that happened in the past, but in the presence of the Eternal.

Sorry InLove hasn't got as far as the Holy Spirit with me yet. So what, to you, is the Holy Spirit and is it a different entity to G-d?

Another way of looking at it is to understand that what He said to the Apostles was for all, and therefore He is talking to me, here, now, today. I am to take this wafer, and it is His body — the wafer is His 'Real Presence' in the world today as much as the man walking round Judea 2,000 years ago was really present then.

So why do you need to physically drink his blood and eat his body? What purpose does it serve? That sounds rude but I hope you know I do not mean it to be.

Alfa salaam and thank you for your patience.

Sally