religious rights

paul

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There seems to be a conflict of gay rights and religious rights.

I understand soceity is not religious as a whole, and want their rights and do have.

But then there are religions, and even non religious people who don't agree with homosexuality.

Is anyone going to have the right to naturally feel homosexuality is wrong.

I have that feeling, i can't change it.

Am i going to have to surpress my feelings, have no say what so ever, isn't that then taking away someones right, freedom of speach and a democratic soceity.
Must everyone shut up, and do as they're told, and religions be told what they have to beleive and teach and practice.

I agree totally that no should be insulting homosexuals or unkind in any way.

But when it comes to honest discussion and expression and feelings, and religious and spiritual beleifs and pratices is peoples rights going to be taken away, are they going to be dictated to.

If there are a group of people i don't agree with, and i do things they find offensive i'm not going to join that group, unless maybe to try and offend them.

When it comes to religiously run organizations, haven't they the right anymore to run it according to their religious beleifs.
And if not isn't this a great infringement of their right.

No one has to join their organization who doesn't agree with beleifs, they would join one they did.
I would find myself very prideful and disruptive and maybe hateful to want to join a religious organization when i do things contrary to their religious beleifs.
And then sue them when they dismiss me when they find out such.

Surely that's not right is it.
 
A tricky question indeed.

It seems to me religions that have 'changed their tune' on homosexuality have done it from the inside out. It isn't homosexuals joined their church like unionizers going to work for a company to in order to convert the company...but that the company workers decided to unionize.

Those who were raised in the religion and discovered their homosexuality eventually became enough of a presence in the group and in the decision making positions which allowed changes to be made from within.

Many religions/denominations/sects accept homosexuals if they repress their behaviour...just as some require folks to repress heterosexual behaviour.

Tis complicated when rights and freedoms collide.
 
Rights are a difficult issue. I would be the first to speak out for someones rights and also the first to speak out against those rights, depending on the topic. This is the problem, we must all go with our morals and morals cannot be legislated.

I do object to the fact that I can be imprisoned for expressing some views but where do we draw the line? If I happen to dislike Arabs, no amount of being 'told' to like them is going to change my mind. Education could change my mind, through a process of breaking down misconceptions but the process would be internal.

I think we often forget that it is a mere 40 years since homosexuality was legalised in the UK, so this is within my own lifetime. Now we have new legislation that I am not permitted to offer services to hetrosexuals, that exclude homosexuals. For me it is going in the wrong direction. Until this new legislation I felt homosexuality was wrong on religious grounds and goes against nature but other than that view I never gave it a second thought. Now however, I feel more strongly about the issue because I feel my rights are being eroded in order to offer rights to a minority. If that is how you choose to live your life, fine but do not try to force me to agree with it.

I see it as most see religion. People do not care whether I believe in G-d or whether I am Muslim or Christian. However, if I sit in a room and 'tell' them they are sinners and insist they believe in G-d then they will switch off or walk out. You cannot force your views on others, no matter what those views are.
 
I have the feeling that black people are genetically inferior. In fact, I've decided that's an integral part of my religion. See where this is going?

Chris
 
I think thats the nitty-gritty of it Sally, you can be educated to tolerance but tolerance does not infer complete acceptance. I am like that with gay's, I can tolerate but I can never accept it as part of what i deem to be 'natural'. These days the gay community goes to great lengths to make my kind of opinion seem prejudiced, discriminatory and backward. Like it is wrong for me to be disgusted by buggery or male on male felatio, or that it wrong for me to feel that community has no right to promote homosexuality to 14 year old school kids in the schools. And not only that but get huge grants to do so while the same budgets deny midwives adequate resourcing. But our governments and our corporate owned media are riddled with gays. The likes of Mandleson and Norton on one side legislate for reducing gay consent ages and turn it into endless repetitive jokes about young boys on the other. The sensibilities of the masses are marginalised and called intolerant and prejudiced. And it is such now that the opinion of anyone who dares raise their head above the parapet is dragged into court. it is madness. and makes me quite mad.

Tao
 
Being black is not a choice.

to say being gay is not either is utter bs.

I don't know that Tao, and neither do you. I know that it's not a scientifically established, peer reviewed fact either way. In my country we have the right to speak freely and peacefully assemble (protest). No one can be stopped from expressing his or her opinion in regard to homosexuality. And no one should whimper if expressing an unpopular opinion nets them a heaping helping of nasty criticism. That's also free speech. What we're really talking about is equal treatment under the law. There are no religious rights. That all falls under the general rights offered to all citizens. Religion is not a protected class.

Chris
 
I don't know that Tao, and neither do you. I know that it's not a scientifically established, peer reviewed fact either way. In my country we have the right to speak freely and peacefully assemble (protest). No one can be stopped from expressing his or her opinion in regard to homosexuality. And no one should whimper if expressing an unpopular opinion nets them a heaping helping of nasty criticism. That's also free speech. What we're really talking about is equal treatment under the law. There are no religious rights. That all falls under the general rights offered to all citizens. Religion is not a protected class.

Chris

I would say from my heart and experience in meeting people, (The part of Edinburgh I live in is the centre of the sizeable Gay community here), that a percentage of people are born with the wrong genitalia for their 'mental' sexuality. They however are a small fraction of the gay community, and incidentally are the ones most sought out by the predatory sadists that call themselves gay. and by whom they are often degradingly abused. But this is not the same as being born with pigmented skin. And I kind of take issue with the analogy because it implies finding gays unnatural is racist, which it is not.

Tao
 
It depends on what you mean, not by "unnatural", but the subjective part of "finding them unnatural". It strikes me as unnatural, weird, kinda disgusting...queer even. Mostly just weird and unappetizing. The behavior, the "lifestyle", and, oh yeah, what they actually do in the sack.

Like I said, the verdict from the hallowed halls of science isn't in. What's really driving the movement toward legitimizing the rights of homosexuals to equal treatment and protection under the law is a growing consensus among common folk that this is the civilized thing to do. Without that kind of consensus nothing, no matter how constitutionally compelling, gets done. We had to wait for that consensus both with Brown v Education (school integration), and Roe v Wade (abortion). This one about gay rights really relies on the people exercising their right to petition the government for redress. We're seeing that process play out right now here in the US. There's a helluva debate going on, and rightly so. We'll see what happens...

Chris
 
I have the feeling that black people are genetically inferior. In fact, I've decided that's an integral part of my religion. See where this is going?

Chris

That defies reason and most religions.
Most religions originated with another race, with Christianity, spread throughout many races.
Race is of course natural.

To hold such opinion as above I know in Christianity, would guess of the other major religions, is against that religion and nature itself.

To find homosexuality unatural, is at the very root of my nature, and i beleive all nature, my beleif, my feelings are not some bigotted self interperatation, as many today try to dismiss them.

The depth of my feelings, my Spirituality, my religion, my nature at it's very core tells me there's something very wrong with homosexuality

For you to liken it to racism, i beleive is an insult to all who have ever suffered racism
I neither agree with homosexual hatred in the same manner, which there has been from some people.

But for people to find something very wrong with homosexuality, and in their religion, is no where near the same as racism, and as i said i beleive is an insult to lower peoples race difference to such unatural sexual behaviour.

You go and tell someone of another race, the difference between you and someone of another race, is just like the difference in a man and womans sexual relationshiop and the sexual relationship of two of the same sex.
Is that our relationship to other races, do we say we're the man women race, and they're the same sex race.
Would you really have the nerve to say that to someone of another race?

Would you really say that to someone who has suffered racism.
 
I'm very sorry.

I don't want this to turn into another homosexual debate.

My concern is where things are going, with people of different beleifs, for i'm sure there is many feel similar to me.

So what's likely to happen?

You can't always change what people think and beleive, and i think the trying to surpress that in people brings out anger and maybe promotes hatred.

I think many people will feel trapped in a corner.

I think if people were given equal freedoms on both sides, and insults or abuse from either side outlawed.
For i see abuse from both sides, more recently i must say from the pro homosexual side, where they have a hatred towards people who don't agree with them and they are labelled bigots.

I think the tolerance is demanded from those opposed to homosexuality, but from the pro homosexuals i think there is little encouraged.

You can't force someone to beleive and live against their beleifs, surely that is wrong.
And is maybe going to cause more problems.

Why can't people live by their religions in peace?

It just seems to me they are being dictated to, and freedoms very much being taken away.
 
religious rights... lol

okay.. let's look at this another way... in the middle ages the "church" burned around a million ppl on suspicion of witchcraft... today, wicca is considered an established religion, and there are now wiccan priests in the armed forces, much like there are catholics and buddhists. Now, even though it still says in deuteronomy that we shouldn't suffer a witch to live- there they are, living quite happily, minding their own buisness...

I feel that reciting the apostles creed and stating the articles of faith is an unacceptable part of catholicism, I feel to the depths of my being that it is wrong, yet I don't go around shouting about it- I just go to mass and say the bits I agree with and when bits come I don't agree with, I say no, mentally, and refuse to say them- I don't stand up in church shouting- hey, I don't agree with that bit there about being born of a virgin, and that bit there about dying and rising again- what would be the point? would I be listened to? would I heck as like...

as adults, in most countries we are entitled to do and say as we please, so long as we are not hurting ppl... if ur not urself gay, and u don't have gay friends, then I don't understand why it is even an issue- there are many other things in the world to be worried about instead of worrying that Charles plays hide the sausage with John, or Betsy and Pam go rug munching...

homosexual sex is disgusting... so ppl say, but what about anal sex between a man and a woman? in most catholic countries heterosexuals did a lot of backdoor sex, mainly because the church had banned the use of contraception and u just can't get pregnant that way...to see two men fellate each other knocks u sick, but its okay when mommy and daddy do it, as then its blessed by marriage? one mouth is much the same as another- warm, wet, filled with teeth, and one penis is very much like another too... it's okay to stick your penis in Betsy's mouth, but not Johns?

homophobia is the same as racism- pretend all you like, the facts remain the same- u are making a negative appraisal of whole swathes of humanity simply because your cultural conditioning tells you they belong to an inferior group, and their behaviour is wrong... how does that not differ to racism? I have plenty of friends who are harrassed and spat at, simply because they are gay... how is that right? we know it's not okay to do it to black folks anymore, and we have to put our clan robes in the attic, but it's still okay to bash gays, as they choose to live that way...

whether they do or not isn't the issue- the issue is... should these individuals be allowed the same standard of respect and tolerance we aim to receive ourselves, and if not, why not? Because they like a bit of bum love? Two women diddling each other- hardly a hanging offence, is it?

okay... what about... fetishists? should we malign Petra because she likes being paddled in PVC panties? What about George, who dresses up as a baby and wants someone to mother him? what about ppl who buy sex toys and blow up dolls? shall we not let them into church either? does jesus hate them, too?

I was reading an article in a magazine not so long ago about a christian woman who set up her own online sex shop, selling furry handcuffs, and cutsey coloured vibrators, and she even had the blessings of her priest... she doesn't sell anything too kinky, just the usual light bondage and sex aids stuff, and she doesn't have any problems and is making a lot of money selling this stuff to OTHER CHRISTIANS...

what do queers do in the sack? the same things you do, the same things your mother and father did to make you... how did they make you? have u asked? was mommy dressed up in red lace crotchless panties, did Daddy wear a gimp mask? Were you conceived hurriedly on the kitchen table amidst steaming plates of spaghetti? or did they do it in the dark, ashamed, hidden under the bedclothes...?

my friend dave went out one night, to a gay bar, which he does every week, and on the way home, after a delightful evening watching the in-house drag queens sing Abba songs he was attacked. They put a hole in the back of his head almost ther same size as a side plate. They found him unconscious on the road and took him to hospital. Now, Dave is not a nasty drunk. He couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag. I'd go so far to say he's a coward, really. He'll run away at the first sight of trouble, never complains about bad service in restaurants, yet somebody had decided because he was gay it was okay to beat him unconscious. All that anger and hate, just because he takes it up the bum.

But hey, it's his own fault. If he had behaved the way society expects him to then he wouldn't have been attacked.

as for natural feelings... I grew up in a racist household, and for us as children it felt natural to hate "Pakis". There was paki's in the corner shop. We hated them. They smelt of curry. They had dirty brown skin, they should go back to where they came from and leave the money they made off our white backs behind.

Now, as an adult, I realise that in fact, this is not natural behaviour. My reasons for hating the Asians in the corner shop all came from my social group and my family. These "Paki's" didn't even come from Pakistan. They came from Burnley, and that made them English. They were Hindu's, not Muslims. They sent all their kids to school in the morning clean and well fed, which was more than I got. They worked all the hours God sent in some crappy shop because that is how it is when you have a family buisness- everyone has a job to do. The woman behind the counter- Mrs Fearnley (how British does that sound?) was a decent woman, and she would often let me off a few pennies if I was short of money when shopping there. My dad would walk a mile to go to a white shop where he was ripped off simply because in the local shop the woman behind the counter had dark skin and a wore a sari. But hey, we can't hold it against him, really, as he grew up in Birmingham, in the time of Oswald Mosely.

so, u see, homophobia is not that different to racism... we make assumptions about other ppl based on nothing more than a few soundbites and what we deduce to be the general consensus of opinion.

so, where do we go from here? *** jihadists versus the Moral majority's crusaders?

you know the **** will win- they will have the best uniforms...

bye bye..
 
Francis,

I think that post to have been simplistic and certainly misses the point I was trying to make. I have nothing against people being gay but it does disgust me when forced to think about their sexuality. This has nothing to do with cultural programming tho. It is my own innate sense of what is or is not natural. And I am tired of the broken record of liberalism trying to convince me I am prejudiced when I am nothing of the kind.

You notably failed to address the issue of gay rights activists seeking to go into schools and educate kids that its ok to be gay. At a time when most kids are struggling with the physical effects of puberty. And to address the issue of the right of others to feel being gay is not natural that is the 'majority'. I have no wish to tell anybody with who they may or may not have a consensual relationship nor what they may or may not do within it. But when a Gay group gets local authority funding to go and give condoms to my 14 year old son in his classroom I hit the bloody roof. That is just wrong. Gay rights groups do not want 'equality', they seek special status and demand the right to evangelise to impressionable kids. Well no, sorry, but we dont give such rights to Suzy the Bondage queen, or Frank the nappy fetishist. So why the hell do we think it acceptable for gays?

Tao
 
Francis King I disagree with a lot you say.

And i'm not talking about or condoning anyone hurting anyone.
If someone attacks another it is against the law.

The fact is i disgree with you, I want to live my life a different way to how you want to live yours.
You have that right.

You know what Catholicism teaches.
I know what to expect in a gay bar.

I'm not talking about taking away anyones right, i'm trying to defend it.

I'm talking about peoples rights and beleifs, not about hurting anyone, but someone being able to follow what they deeply beleive is right and not be forced to partake in what they deeply beleive is wrong.

What i find is there seems to be a trying to force on people to have to condone homosexual acts, when they deeply don't.

I'm not trying to go into the debate of whether you think it right or wrong, or whatever else you want to debate about.

I'm talking about peoples deeply held beleifs and feelings, and there trying being forced on them to condone things, and do things against their deeply held beleifs and feelings.

I can see ther being chairties having money taken off them and put in a homosexual pocket who just wants to cause a bit of trouble and maybe line their pocket.

I just see this talk of equal rights and freedoms in our soceities being clearly proved false.

I don't think it's about freedom for some people, but people doing selfishly as they want and couldn't care less about anyone else.
There may be some genuine people wanting the good and fairness of all.
But come on, the evidence is manifesting itself, people just selfishly want to only do as they please and promote their own agenda.
 
That defies reason and most religions.
Most religions originated with another race, with Christianity, spread throughout many races.
Race is of course natural.
Christians used the bible for quite a while in the US to enslave black people...it is part of our Christian and American history we'd love to forget....but we never should...especially in the current debate.

In less than 100 years we will be denying that Christians or Americans ever had this argument and claim we were always so enlightened as to know that homosexuals had equal rights not to be denied by gov't or church...
 
Christians used the bible for quite a while in the US to enslave black people...it is part of our Christian and American history we'd love to forget....but we never should...especially in the current debate.

In less than 100 years we will be denying that Christians or Americans ever had this argument and claim we were always so enlightened as to know that homosexuals had equal rights not to be denied by gov't or church...

Come on, as i've already said, if they had any interest in what the Bible said and Christian history then they couldn't find an excuse for racism in the Bible or Christianity.

Whether Americans perverted what a religion said for their own means maybe one thing, but what i said i beleive is evidently true, if people were racist it's not the blame of the Bible or Christianity.

What are you suggesting that in 100 years Catholic, Orthodox Churches will change their beleifs about homosexuality?

I don't see that possible, considering throughout it's history all over the world of many different races Christianity has managed to survive to this very day and still not altering it's doctrines.

I don't think you'll ever see a woman Bishop, or woman Pope in the Orthodox or Catholic Church, not in another 2000 years.
But are you suggesting such Churches will change it's ever held beleif on homosexuality that they would have homosexual weddings, gay Bishops and Popes?

I don't beleive so.

I think as all throughout history those who seek enlightenment will enter that path, and it's one that will never change not in a 100 years or ever.
And really there's nothing anyone can do to change that.

I think many people are being led to the more traditional roots of their faith and want such, and find answers.

Homosexuality is such in nature that it speaks eternally to peoples nature.
I don't think 100 years is going to change how people feel as people have felt all throughout history.
I think it's a nature thing, and even a Spiritual thing, and whether you agree with it or not, i don't think that will ever change.
 
Christians used the bible for quite a while in the US to enslave black people...it is part of our Christian and American history we'd love to forget....but we never should...especially in the current debate.

In less than 100 years we will be denying that Christians or Americans ever had this argument and claim we were always so enlightened as to know that homosexuals had equal rights not to be denied by gov't or church...

I agree with you Wil but how will this be achieved. Was the bible changed in order for society to accept coloured people? I am assuming the Bible never said coloured people are lesser people, yet it does say homosexuality is wrong. So how are Christians going to deal with the teaching of G-d, as opposed to their modern moral ethics?


As for the issue of coloured people and homosexuality being the same issue, I have to disagree. Coloured people were abused based on ethnicity alone, nothing to do with lifestyle or cultural practices, purely on skin colour. As women throughout history have at times been oppressed purely on gender, not lifestyle. Homosexuals are not accepted by some because of their lifestyle, what they choose or are biologically drawn toward doing.

May I throw something else into the cooking pot. The issue of sexual freedom. Have we caused this issue in the west by bringing our sexuality out of our homes and into everyday life (advertising, sex education in schools, films, etc)? In my home town in Egypt, we have homosexuals and nobody bothers them. One reason is because they keep this private side of their life private. If they choose to bring it into the street then yes there will be trouble, however, if a hetrosexual couple bring their private life into the public eye there would also be trouble. There was a court case a while back in egypt because of inheritence laws (which are different for men and women). A young man received a brothers share of his fathers estate and then changed his sex to female. His brother went to court to reduce his inheritence to a females share. The court decided that inheritence must be according to the sex of the person at the time the inheritence is handed out. I bore you with this story for a reason, to show that homosexuality exists in all societies but in some it remains a private matter and therefore does not become a 'big issue'.
 
It is my own innate sense of what is or is not natural.

Animals display homosexual behaviours. So what are they being culturally driven to it?

You notably failed to address the issue of gay rights activists seeking to go into schools and educate kids that its ok to be gay. At a time when most kids are struggling with the physical effects of puberty.

And when those of them who are feeling attracted to their own sex are likely to become traumatised by those feelings and bullied by their peers.

What i find is there seems to be a trying to force on people to have to condone homosexual acts, when they deeply don't.

I agree we should respect the freedom of speech of those we disagree with. That doesn't mean we shouldn't disagree with them though.

I can see ther being chairties having money taken off them and put in a homosexual pocket who just wants to cause a bit of trouble and maybe line their pocket.

Any basis for this allegation? How do you know they just want to line their own pockets or is that an assumption based on the fact they're gay?

Homosexuals are not accepted by some because of their lifestyle, what they choose or are biologically drawn toward doing.

So what is the gay lifestyle? Plenty of gays don't run around screaming 'I'm Queer! Deal with it!' they go about their lives quietly, they don't tell everyone the details of their sex lives, they don't harass boys or try to 'convert' people. They just go about life as normal people and happen to go to bed with someone they love who is of the same sex as them. Not all (or probably even most by the standards of alot of straight people these days) gays are promiscuous. So some gays make a big deal of it? That doesn't make them representative, just loudest.
 
I think what many people often overlook when they see gays involved in politics which seeks to change legislation is that there are some real issues at stake. For instance, if I'm not mistaken, in the U.S. it does not matter how long a gay couple has been together in a steady relationship, exercising good citizenship and exhibiting productive lives--if one of them dies, the other does not gain custody of the child that came into the marriage or relationship as a result of a previous attempt at heterosexuality. Even if the child has not been well-acquainted with the biological parent or grandparents from that previous relationship, they may easily gain custody. And in many cases, homosexuals do have problems with their families accepting them, and so are estranged. In cases such as this, the child is frequently taken away from the only other loving parent he or she has ever known and thrown into a completely unfamiliar situation while in mourning for the death of someone they knew as a caring, loving parent. I mean, how cruel is this? If this was happening to your child, wouldn’t you have to speak up and suggest that the laws in this regard should change?


There are many other issues like this. In a democratic process, everyone is supposed to have a voice if they so desire. It is supposed to protect the interests of all good citizens, including you and I. To deny a good citizen reasonable freedom and equal treatment under the law is to laugh in the face of one’s own freedom, and it is to eventually shoot one’s self in the foot, because, as the saying goes, "Everything that goes ‘round, comes ‘round."


Unless what we really want is a theocracy, we cannot (nor do I believe we should) treat our citizens unevenly. If we do this, we should be prepared when it happens to us as well.


InPeace,
InLove
 
Although I'm against homosexuality.. Or shall I say disagree with it. I can't help but brush off that some of the world’s greats were gay, from Leonardo Di Vinci to Sir Isaac Newton. As I have said before BETA males are not gay by nature they are just beta males! In fact they are if anything higher in the food chain then alpha males because they have extraordinary Homosapien minds which ends up turning against them.
 
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