New Testament prophecies are fake

What we have here is an interpretation of Scripture.

So depending upon how one is disposed, one can accept Thomas Paine, or not. None of what he says is a 'proof', merely an interpretation, so to say that the prophecies are 'fake' is to overstep the mark — Paine's thesis is at best that Scripture has been misconstrued — but he has no way of showing, or proving, that his own interpretation is itself not free from error.

Also it is highly selective in its choice of material.

At the very outset, he disposes of the Nativity on the basis that Joseph was informed 'in a dream', and what Paine fails to account for is how the term 'dream' would be understood by the scribe in his day. Certainly not as a 'dream' as Paine describes it.

In my opinion, Thomas Paine's argument in not compelling.

Thomas
 
Thomas Paine states what Jews have stated for 2000 years, that Jesus is not their Messiah and did not fulfill the prophecies.

This one basic difference between a Christian and most other religions, Christians believe he did fulfill the prophecies and is G!d incarnate on earth.

Why would it surprise anyone that a non-christian would have a thought or proofs of other than that?

These are his beliefs, they are not Christian beliefs. He stated however he was a believer in G!d, just not Jesus....

Studies of him and other founders make me wonder why folks think we were born a Christian nation...we were founded on G!d given inalienable rights...he is not alone amongst founders denying the gospels.
 
wil said:
Thomas Paine states what Jews have stated for 2000 years, that Jesus is not their Messiah and did not fulfill the prophecies.

This one basic difference between a Christian and most other religions, Christians believe he did fulfill the prophecies and is G!d incarnate on earth.

Why would it surprise anyone that a non-christian would have a thought or proofs of other than that?

These are his beliefs, they are not Christian beliefs. He stated however he was a believer in G!d, just not Jesus....

Studies of him and other founders make me wonder why folks think we were born a Christian nation...we were founded on G!d given inalienable rights...he is not alone amongst founders denying the gospels.
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Thomas Jefferson on the other hand was profoundly affected by the Gospels, and took them to great heart...

As for the united states being founded on any religious principles, indeed it was. It was founded and incased in moral law based on the Judeo-Christian principles.

Anyone who cares to analyize the four primafacia documents that herolded the birth of the United States will realize that. (Constitution, Declaration, Bill of Rights and the Federalist papers).

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Thomas Jefferson on the other hand was profoundly affected by the Gospels, and took them to great heart...

As for the united states being founded on any religious principles, indeed it was. It was founded and incased in moral law based on the Judeo-Christian principles.

Anyone who cares to analyize the four primafacia documents that herolded the birth of the United States will realize that. (Constitution, Declaration, Bill of Rights and the Federalist papers).

v/r

Q
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I disagree. Most people may believe this, but our founding fathers were diest. Believe it or not, but this is fact.


Is anyone actually reading Thomas Paine's essay??? He is not merely putting Christianity down, he's using the Old Testament to prove there are no prophesies being fullfilled in the four Gospels. He takes it list by list, prophesy by prophesy, and looks up what the old testament is actually saying. Read it objectively. You can believe what you want to, that's the beauty of it. I read it in college. Thomas Paine was actually well versed in the Bible, OT and NT.
 
bodhi_mindisfree said:
I disagree. Most people may believe this, but our founding fathers were diest. Believe it or not, but this is fact.


Is anyone actually reading Thomas Paine's essay??? He is not merely putting Christianity down, he's using the Old Testament to prove there are no prophesies being fullfilled in the four Gospels. He takes it list by list, prophesy by prophesy, and looks up what the old testament is actually saying. Read it objectively. You can believe what you want to, that's the beauty of it. I read it in college. Thomas Paine was actually well versed in the Bible, OT and NT.
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Hi Bodhi_mindisfree,

Yes, I read it from cover to cover and checked out each example for myself. Came to pretty well similiar conclusions as he did but without discounting its many inspiring and spiritual truths. In my view, the New testament excluding revelations and minor errors still makes it a very excellent book that is well able to point a person to spiritual principles that will lead one to God.

Love and Peace,
JM
 
bodhi_mindisfree said:
I disagree. Most people may believe this, but our founding fathers were diest. Believe it or not, but this is fact.


Is anyone actually reading Thomas Paine's essay??? He is not merely putting Christianity down, he's using the Old Testament to prove there are no prophesies being fullfilled in the four Gospels. He takes it list by list, prophesy by prophesy, and looks up what the old testament is actually saying. Read it objectively. You can believe what you want to, that's the beauty of it. I read it in college. Thomas Paine was actually well versed in the Bible, OT and NT.
Click to expand...

Indeed. When Paine sent a draft copy of his manuscript "Age of Reason" to Benjamin Franklin (decidedly less than evangelical by his own confession), Franklin responded thus:

"I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion that . . . the consequence of printing this piece will be a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits into the wind, spits in his own face. But were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? . . . [T]hink how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue . . . . I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person . . . . If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? I intend this letter itself as proof of my friendship."

This was Samuel Adams' response to Paine's writ:

"[W]hen I heard you had turned your mind to a defence of infidelity, I felt myself much astonished and more grieved that you had attempted a measure so injurious to the feelings and so repugnant to the true interest of so great a part of the citizens of the United States. The people of New England, if you will allow me to use a Scripture phrase, are fast returning to their first love. Will you excite among them the spirit of angry controversy at a time when they are hastening to amity and peace? I am told that some of our newspapers have announced your intention to publish an additional pamphlet upon the principles of your Age of Reason. Do you think your pen, or the pen of any other man, can unchristianize the mass of our citizens, or have you hopes of converting a few of them to assist you in so bad a cause?"

John Adams had this to opine:

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will."

Adams also likened the Christian based nation to coming closest to well, heaven:

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God.... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

On 28 June 1813, Adams had this to say to Thomas Jefferson about the nation and Christianity:

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite....And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: . . . Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."

These are direct quotes from some of the forefathers you consider to be deists. I will leave you to consider what Franklin stated at the Constitutional Convention:

"God directly -- if not "miraculously" -- intervened in the "natural" functioning of the universe." (para)

So, I can not in good conscience accept your "facts" that the founding fathers were deists, since their own words convince most, otherwise.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Thomas Jefferson on the other hand was profoundly affected by the Gospels, and took them to great heart...
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um er the author of our declaration was profoundly affected by the gospels, so profoundly that he rewrote them removing the resurrection, transfiguration and all the miracles...you are close enough to stop in at the Jefferson Memorial and purchase a copy of the Jeffersonian Gospels for yourself.
 
wil said:
um er the author of our declaration was profoundly affected by the gospels, so profoundly that he rewrote them removing the resurrection, transfiguration and all the miracles...you are close enough to stop in at the Jefferson Memorial and purchase a copy of the Jeffersonian Gospels for yourself.
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All very true. However, taken into the context as thought of by Jefferson in his papers and memos, Jefferson (who was deeply affected by the teachings of Jesus), thought that the Gospels had been corrupted. He was never a member of any deist community. The "fact" that Jefferson could and did take the oath of office ("test oath"), and based upon the original definition of "deist" in Jefferson's time (IAW Blacks Dictionary), Jefferson was no "infidel" or "deist", who could not swear an oath.

Jefferson (like Franklin, Adams, Washington, etc.), was wary of state sponsored religion, to begin with.

by today's standards, some might argue Jefferson could very well be considered Unitarian. However, he most certainly considered God as being alive and well and quite involved in the affairs of mankind.

Just because one feels something has been corrupted and re-writes "history" more to his liking does not make them a deist...try telling a Muslim that one...

v/r

Q
 
wil said:
um er the author of our declaration was profoundly affected by the gospels, so profoundly that he rewrote them removing the resurrection, transfiguration and all the miracles...you are close enough to stop in at the Jefferson Memorial and purchase a copy of the Jeffersonian Gospels for yourself.
Click to expand...

By his own admission, the so-called Jefferson Bible wasn't intended to be propagated in the manner in which is is now:

"Jefferson also related just how he had gone about editing the Gospels: "I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill." In the end, Jefferson's first effort resulted in a forty-six page cut-and-paste edition of his own making."

Source: "A Postmodernist Before His Time -- Thomas Jefferson on Jesus"

I believe what Jefferson was trying to was strip down the gospels to the very basic teachings of Jesus, to sift through the accounts of the Man to distinguish what He taught. Much like creating an anthology of the teachings of Christ in order to extract His fundamental message. Regardless of how Jefferson regarded the historic Jesus, he had an upmost high regard to the morals and principles of the Christian faith.
 
Franklin said:
the consequence of printing this piece will be a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits into the wind, spits in his own face. But were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? . . . [T]hink how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue . . . . I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person . . . . If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? I intend this letter itself as proof of my friendship."
Click to expand...

One can see from reading Franklins response that he didn't necessarily disagree with the reasoning and logic of Paine nor did he believe that it wasn't true but rather that a great majority of mankind is weak and ignorant and have need of the motives of this religion to restrain them. It seems to me he felt that the masses copuld not handle the truth and that no good for our nation would come of it. Sometimes I wonder how many other leaders of this great country hold back the truth and fabricate lies for the 'perceived good of the country'.

Love and Peace,
JM
 
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George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
[SIZE=-1]From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)[/SIZE]
 
John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
[SIZE=-1]From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.[/SIZE]
 
Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
[SIZE=-1]From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.[/SIZE] "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)
 
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
[SIZE=-1]From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.[/SIZE]
 
The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.
 
Of course, all these are from the same website, but I hope you get the drift. The people who founded the first colonies may have been Christians, but our nation was not founded on Christianity. The beauty of it all is, you can believe what you want.

Peace be with you all,
 
the argument may be looked at as only christian minds could think of freedom and liberty for all, including religion.
 
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