Christian Eschatology Challenge

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This is a little challenge. Can you, in your own words, lay out a basic , eschatological time line outlining the major events that get us from now to the second coming? Just basic bullets is fine, no scriptural references are required unless you want extra points. But no C&P. If you can't type it up in your own words you don't understand it. That's the challenge part.

The purpose is to compare and contrast sectarian differences in Christian eschatology, and just talk about it without getting all grandiose.

Chris
 
The purpose is to ... just talk about it without getting all grandiose.

Haha!! Plain-spoken, I love that.

Eschatology is a big word, though.

End times? Bah-humbug! Here's my take on the second coming:
  • Person realizes that they are part of all life, connected, part of a whole, and that what they do to others they do to Christ (or to 'themself' [it's hard to get a singular of 'themselves', folks]).
  • This person naturally then begins to act in a Christ-like way, and begins to work out their own hang-ups, which make them a much cooler, nicer, kinder person.
    • People like them more, they like themself more.
    • The person stops chasing after so many external rewards and holding themself :rolleyes: to ridiculous societal standards.
  • Bam!!! A "second coming" in an ordinary life. Born Again, Born Again; verily I say, Born Again!!
:) :D :cool:

Yes, I'm serious.

Peace Out,
Pathless
 
Pathless said:
End times? Bah-humbug!

It's easy to dismiss all those end-time predictions as doom and gloom tactics to draw people to Christ, (or not). Indeed, I am saddened by the abuse and profit some have in taking advantage to people's fears and sensibilities. Christian bookstores are replete with books that assert all kinds of end of the world scenerios. It's depressing enough to hear of a seemingly bleak future without the thought that someone is making money off this.

Nonetheless, there is to me seemingly compelling evidence from my own studies to lead me in the possibility that events foretold in scripture may play out in some similiar fashion. I can't dismiss the fact that we are living in an age where nuclear obliteration of the world is a reality, that the means exists right now that us humans can destroy ourselves completely, even without II Peter 3:10-12 explicitly telling us so.

Eschatology is dependent on historical events coming into play. Traditionally, at least in evangelical circles, a typical series of events would play out as follows (which may or may not occur in this exact order):

- Israel becomes a nation again
- A revived Roman Empire emerges to become an economic powerhouse
- A political figure, gudied by another spiritual prophet, takes control of this Roman Empire and makes a peace compact with Israel.
- Gog and Magog and her allies invade Israel, but are Israel somehow survives.
- The Roman leader breaks the pact and declares war on Israel.
- All the nations of the world converge against Israel, including Middle East and Far East nations.
- An epic final battle is fought in the valley of Meggido.
- But before Israel is destroyed, Christ returns and supernaturally destoys all the opposing armies.
- Christ sets up a 1000 year kingdom from Jerusalem from which He rules the world and peace is made. There are nations outside this kingdom that also have peace.
- During this same 1000 year period, Satan will be bound up and ineffectual his influence on people.
- But after the 1000 year period, Satan is released to deceive the nations again, but then is throw in the bottomless pit.
- There is a Great White Throne judgement to judge the wicked.
- There is a New Heaven and New Earth, the old heaven and earth pass away and the Kingdom of Heaven is established forever.

Why it would be played out this way is hard to determine. Some believe that most of the events in Revelation is centered around the restoration of Israel as a promise by God all the way back to the time of Abraham. That God will restore His People, Israel.

I'm not so much interested in why as in how. Much of these things listed seem rather far fetched, yet why does the current political landscape of the world seem to be drifting toward this very thing?

- Israel became a nation in 1948, after some 1900 years of Jewish exile. And given their history, the Jews and their culture have remarkable survived throughout the centuries.
- Europeon Community has become a loose conglomerate of nations that has seen many political and economic changes that is uniting them more and more. They even have a rotating EU presidency, which very recently changed from Germany to Portugal.
- Russia, which has been identified by some biblical scholars as Gog and Magog, has formed alliances with some Middle East countries such as Iran (Persia) and China (kings of the East) in recent years.

I could go on, but I hope you see my point. I mean why is Israel such a political hotspot in the first place? It's a just small country about the size of California, a strip of land on the coast of the Mediterranean that really doesn't have that much to offer, other than for religious reasons for three of the world's most significant religions. Why hasn't it been obliterated by the surrounding nations that hate it? (Maybe the Palistinians have a purpose in their preservation?)

I just think it's odd that we are living in a tedious world at large and that endtime events in the Bible are not as farfetched as people think.
 
Hi Dondi. :)

- But before Israel is destroyed, Christ returns and supernaturally destoys all the opposing armies.

Eh, the Christ I believe in is not a military man.

I'm not so much interested in why as in how. Much of these things listed seem rather far fetched, yet why does the current political landscape of the world seem to be drifting toward this very thing?

Could it be...

a self-fulfilling prophecy??

Could it, just possibly--just possibly!--be that those in power have had these Christian apocalyptic notions and values so deeply etched into their psyches that they are conspiring (no matter how consciously or unconsciously) to bring about a violent climax to history?

The current struggle of militant Christianity vs. militant Islam (with seemingly endless armies of other militant, reactionary factions just trying to get a piece of the action) is all about the apocalypse. It's all about a who's better, who's best, our side is going to win and take the cake, suckers!! mentality, with the loser not only doomed to deaths filled with gore, hatred, and torture, but not even recognized as human.

Christ doesn't go in for sh1- like that. Truly, I cannot believe that any beautiful creative spiritual force is sitting anywhere in the cosmos rooting for one side in humanity's stupid efforts to destroy itself. Christ is not wearing a big foam finger out there in the stands, armed with nukes, while Mohammed (pbuh) is staked out on the other side of the field eating unsalted popcorn and exhorting his team to cook up a nuclear warhead and punt it into the Christian end-zone.

Ridiculous, right??!

I cannot understand people's needs to make a gross puppet out of divinity, playing a game of sick ventriloquism, taunting the evil-doers on the other side with jeers that amount to, "You are less human than us, you uncivilized bastards... because God is clearly on OUR side."

... ... ... ...

Huh, wha--? Oh, pardon...
I don't know what came over me.
Did I have a seizure? Speak in tongues?

Sorry, folks, sometimes I just can't hold back my amazement, my incredulity at the lengths humans will go to justify destroying each other instead of doing the real difficult work of cooperating together.

... ...

And Dondi, this post is not directed at you; please don't take it as an attack. Clearly from your post your jury is still out as to the validity of Armageddon. You did, however, spark a jumping-off for a rant of mine...
so... thanks, I guess...?

And Peace,
Pathless
 
hello everyone,
to start off, i too think that everything is going to start in the middle east area. that area alone cannot be denied that something big is going to happen there very very soon. of all the areas on earth why there? i honestly think that when something happens to the dome of the rock, that is when everything will start to happen. aren't the jewish and the muslims fighting for this land? isn't this the sight where the 3rd temple is supposed to be built? i am still really not clear on this yet, but i do know this area is very important to the jewish and muslims alike.

i also think that there will be a "son of perdition". as for the way the bible explains it, i don't think judas was the the son of perdition. or maybe it is a title, maybe there are more than one... perhaps son of perdition is an idea, or a prophecy? i don't know, really, and perhaps won't know in this generation.

as far as the way i think things are going to end up, they have to end up in such a natural manner and in such a manner that no one recognizes, because remember that despite all the prophecies in the bible, no one will recognize them when they are actually happening in this world. what i mean by natural i mean by natural catastrophies, meteors, astroids, sun expanding, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. freaky stuff that comes directly from God's Hand Himself. signs in the heavens that are just too weird for anyone to deny or accept for that matter. i would crap my pants more at something natural because it is such a mystery and no one will have an explanation to why a natural catastrophe happened or why it is happening. a bomb, well at least we know where one of those comes from, but a moon turning blood red or experiencing or feeling a darkness that can be felt like in the book of Exodus or the plagues in ancient egypt for that matter! no one can explain those except if we look to God for answers and conclude that if He did it once, then He will do it again. except on those parts where He says He won't do it again, of course! well to give a basic idea or outline of chronological events, here it is:

-first the son of perdition. he will serve as the catalyst to start everthing.
-the 3rd temple will be built at the expense of the dome of the rock.
-then nations will go to war against nations.
-persecution and death of the Saints.
-the Son of Man will descend from heaven. though i have to agree with pathless on this one, He will not use military might for that would somehow not be right and unnatural. it would have to be something along the lines of the Might of God displayed the way God displayed His Might through Moses or Elijah.
-resurrection of the dead should happen shortly after the Son of Man's decension from heaven. these dead are the first to be resurrected because they bore God's Name in their hearts and cared not for their lives in this world.
-at the climax of the battle, the earth will be refined like silver or gold in a fiery furnace. except this fire will cleanse the earth and its inhabitants of wickedness. this fire could be the tribulation or it could literally be some kind of crazy cosmic fire from heaven like in II Peter like dondi pointed out. this could be during the 1,000 year Riegn of the Son of Man.
-then the second resurrection for the Day of Judgment.
-then finally, God's Kingdom will finally be established here on earth for all of time.

remember that these are merely my thoughts and i hope i don't offend anyone. i could talk about this sort of stuff until the arrival of God's Kingdom but this will suffice... thanks for reading and God bless you all...
 
Could it be...

a self-fulfilling prophecy??

Could it, just possibly--just possibly!--be that those in power have had these Christian apocalyptic notions and values so deeply etched into their psyches that they are conspiring (no matter how consciously or unconsciously) to bring about a violent climax to history?

I find it highly unlikely that "those in power" have "Christian apocalyptic notions and values" considering that Russia was basically a Communist state (and probably still is), Iran is a Muslim state, and Israel is a Jewish state. And while Europe has had strong Christian affiliations with the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, it is increasingly becoming secularized.

Or maybe you have your eyes on the United States. Truly, if there is any conspiracy, it would be most likely propagated be American evangelicals who hold to these endtime ideas. Frankly, the United States is not specifically mentioned in scripture, although again some believe it might be an extension of the European community, having had roots in England, France, and Spain, among others.

But Pathless, aside from all that, you seem to think that these endtime scenerios are just popping out of nowhere, when it really has it's origins in scripture. How else are we to view such apocalyptic books as Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and portions of the gospel such as the Olivet Discourse given by Christ in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13. This kind of stuff is all through the Bible.

This is not about God taking sides. God has only one side, the side of righteousness. Anyonewho calls himself/herself a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, FSMist, or whatever and committing such atrocities is not playing on God's side. Much of what happens in these endtime scenerios are the result of MAN'S doing and responsibility, not God's.
 
But Pathless, aside from all that, you seem to think that these endtime scenerios are just popping out of nowhere, when it really has it's origins in scripture. How else are we to view such apocalyptic books as Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and portions of the gospel such as the Olivet Discourse given by Christ in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13. This kind of stuff is all through the Bible.


Dondi, that this stuff is in the Bible is exactly my point! No, I don't think these scenarios are popping out of nowhere, but I also don't see them as the fulfilment of Biblical or other prophecy. Rather I see them as a product of that, or part of a system of feedback:
"Oh look at all the war, and after all that's what Revelation says! Oooh, what powerful, exciting times we live in! The day of Redemption and Damnation is Nigh!"​
And then these thoughts/speeches/dialogues reinforce the Apocalypse ride. Yes, books like Revelation have a part to play in all of this--indeed, I think that such hate-filled, fear-filled, pseudo-symbolic doggerel as the book of Revelation are chiefly responsible for this B.S. Accounts of Apocalypse and condemnation scare the Bejesus out of people, and in doing so, reinforce fear-based responses, such as military operations, invasions, nation-building, side-choosing.

Yes, I am speaking of the U.S.'s role in all of this, which is far from insignificant. I know something about Christianity and I know something about American life. Of life in Palestine, Israel, Russia, China, and all the rest, I know considerably less. I do see in this country a frightening embrace of doomsday prophecy, and it makes me very sad, very frustrated, and very ill to know that the country I was born in and still live in is populated with people who not only take what they have for granted, but feel that it is their God-given right to decimate other societies without conscience. And I see Christian Apocalyptics playing a big role in this for too many people.
 
This being a very open subject here goes.

As in the days of Noah.
It will be very hard to see good in people as a whole.

The middle east will be involved (Babylon in every place in scripture has been in its same specific geograhpic location)

Christ will come the dead in Christ will rise believers will be greatful.
Non-believers will be freaking out not sure

There will be a 1000yr reign in which time we will learn the true nature of Christ, Satan will be bound not being able to deceive many people will come to Christ.

After the 1000yrs Satan will be loose for what the Bible calls a season all those he can decieve will stand with him refusing Christ fire will come down and consume them instantly.
Then the dead will be judged and destroyed in what the Bible calls a lake of fire fallen angels along with their leader destroyed.

The city John saw will decend taking its place on what is pretty much a remodeled earth.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


pretty much what I read...

chunks are missing I am not a prophet so dont take my guess's as anything solid or from God I think the last part there is pretty accurate a couple verses that peek my interest come from Solomon and Matthew

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


All mine no copy and paste but for the verses
 
Dondi, that this stuff is in the Bible is exactly my point! No, I don't think these scenarios are popping out of nowhere, but I also don't see them as the fulfilment of Biblical or other prophecy. Rather I see them as a product of that, or part of a system of feedback:
"Oh look at all the war, and after all that's what Revelation says! Oooh, what powerful, exciting times we live in! The day of Redemption and Damnation is Nigh!"​
And then these thoughts/speeches/dialogues reinforce the Apocalypse ride. Yes, books like Revelation have a part to play in all of this--indeed, I think that such hate-filled, fear-filled, pseudo-symbolic doggerel as the book of Revelation are chiefly responsible for this B.S. Accounts of Apocalypse and condemnation scare the Bejesus out of people, and in doing so, reinforce fear-based responses, such as military operations, invasions, nation-building, side-choosing.

Yes, I am speaking of the U.S.'s role in all of this, which is far from insignificant. I know something about Christianity and I know something about American life. Of life in Palestine, Israel, Russia, China, and all the rest, I know considerably less. I do see in this country a frightening embrace of doomsday prophecy, and it makes me very sad, very frustrated, and very ill to know that the country I was born in and still live in is populated with people who not only take what they have for granted, but feel that it is their God-given right to decimate other societies without conscience. And I see Christian Apocalyptics playing a big role in this for too many people.

You're right that our attitude ought not to be rubbing our hands, gleefully anticipating the coming destruction. But rather pray for people to repent and turn to God.

May I say one point to make something clear. It is my belief that all the events in these scenerios are not designed to compel individuals to repent, per se, but for nations to repent. Once you understand this distinction, you can see this in a different light. God is trying to redeem nations, too. But is warning those who oppose righteousness to repent. Jesus repeatedly warned whole cities to repent, lest they come to the same fate as Sodom and Gomorrah. That's not directed at individuals, but to stir up the nations. Jonah went to Ninevah and warned the people about God's wrath, and the whole city repented. Thus God spared them. But how will it be for the United States? I shudder to think that I would be in a nation that will be judged by God. God did warn Lot and his family before destroying the world, but how many of us who live in the states, even Christians, would flee America, knowing God will reign down destruction on America as a whole, unless it too repents.

I, for one, do not emphasize the Rapture, for I think too many Christians look at it as a free ride away from it all, while leaving the "heathen" to fend for themselves. If it happens, well. But we ought to bringing people in with love and compassion, while warning them of the judgement to come.

On the individual level, we ought to know God out of love, but also know that He is God. Come to the Savior knowing that there are great things in store for those who follow Him and obey Him. We shouldn't have to resort solely to scare tactics of destruction and hell. We should bring people to a realization that there is a better way to live through Christ. that should be the emphasis. All the Law and Prophets are based on Loviong God and Loving your neighbor. Jesus said that if we do this, we shall live.
 
This is shaping up well! Remember, the challenge part is to type it up in your own words. Embedded text links are a really sweet touch, thanks Dondi! Yes, I guess eschatology is a grandiose word, there Pathy, but at least I didn't use exegesis in the same sentence like I was gonna. Dondi gets the prize so far for neatness and following instructions. Can we merge Leo's chronology with Dondi's?

Dondi's

- Israel becomes a nation again
- A revived Roman Empire emerges to become an economic powerhouse
- A political figure, gudied by another spiritual prophet, takes control of this Roman Empire and makes a peace compact with Israel.
- Gog and Magog and her allies invade Israel, but are Israel somehow survives.
- The Roman leader breaks the pact and declares war on Israel.
- All the nations of the world converge against Israel, including Middle East and Far East nations.
- An epic final battle is fought in the valley of Meggido.
- But before Israel is destroyed, Christ returns and supernaturally destoys all the opposing armies.
- Christ sets up a 1000 year kingdom from Jerusalem from which He rules the world and peace is made. There are nations outside this kingdom that also have peace.
- During this same 1000 year period, Satan will be bound up and ineffectual his influence on people.
- But after the 1000 year period, Satan is released to deceive the nations again, but then is throw in the bottomless pit.
- There is a Great White Throne judgement to judge the wicked.
- There is a New Heaven and New Earth, the old heaven and earth pass away and the Kingdom of Heaven is established forever.

Leo's

-first the son of perdition. he will serve as the catalyst to start everthing.
-the 3rd temple will be built at the expense of the dome of the rock.
-then nations will go to war against nations.
-persecution and death of the Saints.
-the Son of Man will descend from heaven. though i have to agree with pathless on this one, He will not use military might for that would somehow not be right and unnatural. it would have to be something along the lines of the Might of God displayed the way God displayed His Might through Moses or Elijah.
-resurrection of the dead should happen shortly after the Son of Man's decension from heaven. these dead are the first to be resurrected because they bore God's Name in their hearts and cared not for their lives in this world.
-at the climax of the battle, the earth will be refined like silver or gold in a fiery furnace. except this fire will cleanse the earth and its inhabitants of wickedness. this fire could be the tribulation or it could literally be some kind of crazy cosmic fire from heaven like in II Peter like dondi pointed out. this could be during the 1,000 year Riegn of the Son of Man.
-then the second resurrection for the Day of Judgment.
-then finally, God's Kingdom will finally be established here on earth for all of time.

Chris
 
Dondi said:
May I say one point to make something clear. It is my belief that all the events in these scenerios are not designed to compel individuals to repent, per se, but for nations to repent. Once you understand this distinction, you can see this in a different light. God is trying to redeem nations, too. But is warning those who oppose righteousness to repent. Jesus repeatedly warned whole cities to repent, lest they come to the same fate as Sodom and Gomorrah. That's not directed at individuals, but to stir up the nations. Jonah went to Ninevah and warned the people about God's wrath, and the whole city repented. Thus God spared them. But how will it be for the United States? I shudder to think that I would be in a nation that will be judged by God. God did warn Lot and his family before destroying the world, but how many of us who live in the states, even Christians, would flee America, knowing God will reign down destruction on America as a whole, unless it too repents.

Is there a text to support the idea of the nations ruling with Christ? What sort of changes would need to happen in Israel, as it is today, to make it the catalyst for the advent? How are these changes being brought about in terms of current geopolitical, geo-social trends? Is there a dividing of the nations event where the repentant and unrepentant nations coalesce into opposing forces? How does that come about do you think?

Chris
 
Pathless speaks to my heart and my mind.

Christ in you...who said that?

Namaste...there it is again...

Put the mind of Christ in you...

just choice...

occam's razor..
 
Is there a text to support the idea of the nations ruling with Christ? What sort of changes would need to happen in Israel, as it is today, to make it the catalyst for the advent? How are these changes being brought about in terms of current geopolitical, geo-social trends? Is there a dividing of the nations event where the repentant and unrepentant nations coalesce into opposing forces? How does that come about do you think?

Chris


Well, yes, there is textual support. In Revelation 19:11-16 we have a picture of Christ's return, not quite as meek as He was the first time, but in all power and glory of God. And He will rule the nations with an iron rod. The next chapter, Revelation 20:4 has Him reigning on earth for 1000 years. The after the New Heavens and New Earth forms, there is healing of the nations from the Tree of Life out of the Thone of God and the Lamb in Revelation 22:1-2.

As far as how all these things will play out in the geo-political sphere, I think it will center on the land of Israel and on Israel's readiness to prepare itself for the Lord. Ezekiel 37:21-28 is partially being fulfilled, where the Jews that were scattered among nations have reformed into Israel as a nation. But much has yet to be accomplished, for the Messiah is yet to come to rule. That may depend on the repentance of people of Israel before the messiah comes. Or it may be a result of the Messiah's coming. The battle against Gog and Magog and her allies in the next chapters (Ezekiel 38-39) may have a unifying effect.

It seems that Israel will be for the most part alone in this conflict. I see no mention of her having any allies, at least not completely faithful. The war will be fought against Israel and her enemies. I am unclear what will happen to those countries that will be taking a neutral stance. I'm up for more study on this.
 
the symbolism here being the breaking of old clay pots to pieces with an iron rod, so will the ungodly nations be to jesus christ.

Whatever. The scriptures are filled with the idea of the Messiah as King who will rule in righteousness and justice:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." - Jeremiah 23:5-6

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you." - Zechariah 8:20-23

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles." - Zechariah 14:16-19
 
the symbolism here being the breaking of old clay pots to pieces with an iron rod, so will the ungodly nations be to jesus christ.

Could you show where you found this Idiom.
where breakin clay pots with an iron rod comes from etc. ?
 
"He who overcomes and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star."

theres lots of verses that deal the potter and the clay and the breaking of the pots in pieces throughout the bible.
 
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