human stupidity- the curse of mankind

Excuse me, has anyone seen my friend Tao? He went away for a while and some bloke has come back in his place. I miss my old friend Tao. :(

I am quite happy to be stupid - as long as I don't lose my intelligence.

Salaam
 
Maybe it's his new computer. I think it's a Dell...and y'know...their HQ is in TEXAS ! *nothing personal Deb and Jack*

flow....:rolleyes:

Ahah, in that case I shall go and saboutage his new computer. At least it isn't the body snatchers again. :)
 
I dunno Tao. Nowadays, at least in the civilized world, religion works as a valuable counterbalance to government. I have a greater fear of government absorbing the role of religion than I do of religion usurping the role of government. I'm glad people are stupid. I'm glad most people are born followers. It makes life easier for me...except when I'm impatient and pissy and projecting my own feelings of inadequacy onto others. When that happens everyone starts to look stupid to me as I give myself an injection of derision and disdain projection to compensate for feeling crappy.

Chris

But we have no "civilised world", everywhere there is war, suppression of liberty and gross inequalities. The Anglican church wars amongst itself, the Catholic against every other faith and Islam is unable to tackle the rot of radicalism infesting it. Evangelism gets so blinkered in the US it is almost indistinguishable from the worst Islam has to offer. In each case the so called theists are in bed with the politicians, vice versa or they are one and the same.

It is true that down on the street there are many individual priests, pastors and imams that bring comfort, help and true charity to the communities they serve. People that love their people. Without religion these people would not only continue to exist but would prosper and be able to do the work they currently toil to find funding for. All that would be removed is the meaningless and ultimately pointless jargon that few really listen to anyway.

Tao
 
Yes.

I am not excommunicating you. It is a fact that you have not said one good thing about religion in this thread, not even one single good example, when there are many to mention!

The good things that happen in religion happen in spite of religion not because of it. They happen because most people when not threatened are warm and loving. Religions offer a place of gathering where human goodness can manifest. Such gatherings do not require religion. My purpose on this thread is not to defend religion, but you cite me any example you like and I am sure I will be able to demonstrate that the above is true in every case. Religion is superfluous baggage, and its negative aspects outweighs any good it serves.



This was interesting. . .I have never heard of it. If you wish, you can fill me in:)
Due to time constraints can I simply refer you to this thread where you can I hope get a gist of where my thoughts lay. http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/gaia-theory-and-its-relationship-4210.html

Regards

Tao
 
Excuse me, has anyone seen my friend Tao? He went away for a while and some bloke has come back in his place. I miss my old friend Tao. :(

I am quite happy to be stupid - as long as I don't lose my intelligence.

Salaam

I am sorry I disappoint you..

I think if you were to look back this process of shedding off the last remaining threads of possibility of me finding "faith" started some time before my old comp broke. I still have what people here are describing as 'spirituality' it is just that I do not ascribe it to divine origin. I hope that I can continue to add a little to the discussions here and all remain friends :)

yours...

Tao
 
Tao,
Do you see the value of faith between people? Not as a religion, but between people... one person having faith in another and vice versa? Believing, trusting, and serving one another?

I find that faith from God, and faith in God, are no different. Any relationship can be approached like a scientific experiment.

Relevant to the thread: I find that a strong key to ridding self of stupidity is faith. As simple perhaps as the child who asks, "Can you help me?" It is a fork in the road, a whole new path. The child has learned how to learn... faster.
 
The good things that happen in religion happen in spite of religion not because of it....................


Due to time constraints can I simply refer you to this thread where you can I hope get a gist of where my thoughts lay. http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/gaia-theory-and-its-relationship-4210.html

Regards

Tao

Tao,
Thank you for the time and energy you're putting into this......in the lines and between the lines, I feel I'm also receiving a clearer picture of words of intelligence.

Yes, it's time we stopped making a god of religion it's self.......
And yes, I see a man who is very aware of his own spirituality in relation to the world. One who has faith in self and not without compassion for others.

You may be riding one of the four horses of the apocalyse, but man you ride it well...... dont look back, we do indeed live in changing times, and dont doubt the possibilities of transformation, i've been more than turned inside out myself over the past few months, the positive is the appreciation of realisation in a place of self forming reality.

- c -
 
The good things that happen in religion happen in spite of religion not because of it. .... Religions offer a place of gathering where human goodness can manifest. Such gatherings do not require religion.
Yes, it's time we stopped making a god of religion it's self.......
Is it just me or does anyone else see the same discussion regarding the NRA and gun control?

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Namaste Tao, Ciel, I largely agree yet differ. A matter of perspective. Yes their are folks that will find ways to distort and take advantage of anything and they are found in and out of religion. And yes religion provides a format whereby many find easy to invade and play as such. And yes religion also provides a format whereby others can do good, and have comfort....and guess what, when there is a better system, folks will gravitate to it! Currently how many can you name? Those with intelligence have had the same number of years to create the non religious groups which gather millions across borders...what is the difference? Stupidity? I think not.

As before, my belief is that each belief system started with a divine spark, and was refined by more divine sparks...enlightenment, revelation, prophets, those speaking, or hearing, or feeling, or sensing, or knowing the eachness of the allness and attempting to translate what they absorbed from the all into this three dimensional five sense world that we live in.

Is it stupidity on our part that we can't verbalize and pass on this amazing information to all we see? Or is it stupidity on the side of those listening? Or is it simply inadequacy of bandwidth and the environment. Like trying to run your oven with a cheap hardware extension cord....everything in the middle fails...it is inadequate for the amount of energy flowing thru it.

And oft times we are currently inadequate to absorb the fullness of the current flowing thru us.
 
wil,
Yes, this the very reason why I find what Tao is saying to be so refreshing.

A sense of clear space.




- c -
 
Tao, wil, Ciel...

OK, getting a little serious now. Yes wil, if this is all about anything these days, the increasingly disruptive tossing about of people, societies, and their beliefs, it is about what is flowing through us all in a relentless fashion. It is a set of universal energies in flux that are pushing us all towards changes that have been needed for some time, but which must, of necessity come slowly lest there be more and more chaotic episodes, more often.

One side of the human species equation says," no we must have predictability, reliability, stability, determinism at any cost, because anything else will lead to anarchy." My opinion is that these, what might otherwise be labeled fascist tendencies, are advocated most vehemently thru traditionally male-controlled, institutional frameworks of world governance, including some of the major religious institutions.

The other side are the more earth-bound , female oriented attitudes of embracing change as it comes and to make new ways of living and continuance by selecting the best of what is embedded in these energies and using that to power the engines of the future, which are the children. These voices say, "we must harmonize ourselves with what is natural and not artifice, for that is where we come from, and that is where we all must remain now and in the future, so rooted to guarantee our collective well-being. Now I realize that I am overly generalizing the basic conflict here, and there is considerable crossover everywhere, but this, IMHO, is the foundation. Men are from Mars and women are from Venus...if you will.

This is a very deep set of conflicting forces and realities which have always been there, and have always been organized and societally managed through systems of spiritual belief, whether in a community sense, or on a national, or planet-wide basis. In this era of profound scientific and technological change, we are still collectively trying to comprehend the scope of all of this and where we as individuals and communities fit into possible future scenarios.

Yes Tao...more fundamentlist and orthodox approaches are not embraceable by those seeking and willing to adapt realistically to these sets of changes. Yes Ciel...we all need more space to see and comprehend just what is really going on in order to find our individual and communal ways. And wil, I agree that existing beliefs have a foundational set of aspects that may enable them to pull these efforts into united approaches towards realistic solutions and plans. After all, if you go back far enough in time, one finds that ALL religions originated in the practices devised by us to observe nature and its changes.

But the problem here is that there is no sufficiently educated and effective leadership to help us to do so and cope with this great thing of global adaptability to massive change. And until there is, we are cursed to follow the ineffective meanderings of societal leadership that is collectively cursed with the "stupidity" of not really understanding the dynamics or nature of what is happening, and would rather avoid the issue by ignoring it and seeking avenues of false security, like accumulating greater riches and wealth and supposed security thru control over the lives and destinies of the less fortunate.

My two cents.

flow....:cool:
 
But the problem here is that there is no sufficiently educated and effective leadership to help us to do so and cope with this great thing of global adaptability to massive change. And until there is, we are cursed to follow the ineffective meanderings of societal leadership that is collectively cursed with the "stupidity" of not really understanding the dynamics or nature of what is happening, and would rather avoid the issue by ignoring it and seeking avenues of false security, like accumulating greater riches and wealth and supposed security thru control over the lives and destinies of the less fortunate.

flow....:cool:

Flow,
Leadership........ You know I still believe God is the ultimate director in all affairs, just takes some time and balance in the God global economy.
And it's a two way thing between the exchange rate balance of here and there.
Seeing the clarity of the situation, count yourself in...... morphic resonance...... and we live on a planet made of many ones as many.

- c -
 
Hello Ciel...Yes, a director. I have to admit that I sometimes erroneously envision G-d as a combination of Spielberg, Hitchcock, and Truffault. It's as good an anthropomorphization of the situation as I can conjure sometimes. I'm certain that a lot of all of our frustrations center around the need for our patience until the director(s) speaks and acts through the many in differing places. I tend to look at the smaller events as His/Her interventions. Thanks...and enjoy the smoooothies.

flow....;)
 
Can atheists and religious people have a real dialogue?

The good things that happen in religion happen in spite of religion not because of it. They happen because most people when not threatened are warm and loving. Religions offer a place of gathering where human goodness can manifest. Such gatherings do not require religion. My purpose on this thread is not to defend religion, but you cite me any example you like and I am sure I will be able to demonstrate that the above is true in every case. Religion is superfluous baggage, and its negative aspects outweighs any good it serves.




Due to time constraints can I simply refer you to this thread where you can I hope get a gist of where my thoughts lay. http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/gaia-theory-and-its-relationship-4210.html

Regards

Tao

Can atheists and religious people have a real dialogue? My youth pastor asked us this past week to list 3 reasons why people do not go to church. The number one reason on my list was religion. It included Hindus, Muslims, Baha'is, Buddhist, Atheist, and any other denomination inside of Christianity that may not be accepted. As Thich Nhat Hanh would say, we have to appreciate that truth can be received from outside of--not only within--our own group.

Atheist remind me of the pharisees. Tao, by the way, I am not calling ya'll hypocrites, because all of the pharisees were not hypocrites. They simply would not accept non-pharisees. I have tried talking to athiest, but they make me feel as though they are superior to me. My ideas are just stupid, so why even mention them? Atheists just remind me of another organized religion. They are like Christians that do not accept Christian universalists, who believe truth can be found outside of their group; atheist have a monopoly over truth or so they claim.

Just being honest. I am interested in real dialogue with atheist. I would invite them to church, but they do not wish to talk to me about religion. Well, the one I talked to a couple of weeks ago. He is a nice guy. Tao, what do you think?
 
Tao,
Do you see the value of faith between people? Not as a religion, but between people... one person having faith in another and vice versa? Believing, trusting, and serving one another?
Absolutely!!!....And this is why I can say with such confidence that religion is superfluous baggage.


I find that faith from God, and faith in God, are no different. Any relationship can be approached like a scientific experiment.
I am afraid I have, despite i think being genuinely open to such revelation, never encountered this God of which you hint. Anything can be approached with science. Other than that, and this time i genuinely do not attempt to counter your opinion, I really do not understand these two sentences in the context of this thread. Sorry.

Relevant to the thread: I find that a strong key to ridding self of stupidity is faith. As simple perhaps as the child who asks, "Can you help me?" It is a fork in the road, a whole new path. The child has learned how to learn... faster.
Here I agree with your premise and think you have presented it elegantly and succinctly. But... religion is not required, indoctrination is not required. A child asks a question in innocence and deserves honesty in reply. Any reply with "God" in it must be qualified with emphasis by "some people believe" otherwise it ceases to be an honest reply. I never was able to ask such questions as a child of my parents but the questions did enter my mind. The two people I did approach were an elderly devout catholic woman (with a rather overtly tactile approach to young boys :p) and my Geography teacher whom probably never realised how much he influenced my conciousness. ( It is interesting to note that he was by my peers one of the most disliked teachers, due to his strictness, but was by far my favourite. I never had a reprimand from him, which is unique as every other teacher seemed to hate me and, this is back in the days of the "strap", and used to remind me daily of their hatred. ) The strap:

Away from that 'aside' i would state that the greatest injustice done to children globally is the indoctrination of religious faith. Well maybe it follows starvation and poverty but you get my point I'm sure. Children deserve honesty but too often the adults around them are either too stupid or too indoctrinated themselves to provide it. Religion perpetuates ignorance and belief in unsubstantiated dogma, not the pursuit of pure truth. And every nation, every community is infected with what amounts to a tyrannical need to perpetuate its geographical mythos. Giving this to a child gives him/her nothing. The opposite. It fills his/her head with the age old reasons to culturally despise the brothers and sisters they are denied the opportunity to love.



Tao
 

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Re: Can atheists and religious people have a real dialogue?

Please forgive me Wil, Ceil and Flow for skipping past your input into this thread but I really do have time issues and I type so very slowly!!


BB, Hi again :)

Can atheists and religious people have a real dialogue?
I stated earlier in this thread that it is my belief that the natural want of the human condition is to find commonality with each other. Religious structures rarely aid this. In fact they tend to polarise differences beyond there true significance. An Atheist would not waste his time in a church because he would feel every word was meeting ears essentially deaf to his words.

Atheist remind me of the Pharisees. Tao, by the way, I am not calling ya'll hypocrites, because all of the pharisees were not hypocrites. They simply would not accept non-pharisees. I have tried talking to athiest, but they make me feel as though they are superior to me. My ideas are just stupid, so why even mention them? Atheists just remind me of another organized religion. They are like Christians that do not accept Christian universalists, who believe truth can be found outside of their group; atheist have a monopoly over truth or so they claim.
Well can I tell you that it is to me as great a coming out to declare myself an atheist as it would be to declare myself gay, (which I am not....i bend over for no man!! :p:p). maybe you do not know me so well but in my time coming here, and indeed throughout my life, I have and continue to search for some meaning. Atheism is a cold word in the perception of most here and myself. So I adopt it reluctantly. It is cold for no small reason. It means giving up that warm comfort blanket of a super-daddy out there somewhere assuring us that it is all gona be ok in the end. But truth is not always easy, truth is ambivalent to what we would like. It simply is.
I am sorry that you feel belittled in the face of atheistic discussion, I am sure that some people do take on Atheism for self aggrandising purposes but hope you see that what i post on this thread is not to try and make me look smart or intelligent (I am both and stupid and foolish and impetuous too at times), but because I am sharing "where I am at" with my friends here.
I have a poor understanding of Rabbinic sects but linguistically my own understanding of the Pharisees is those of the chosen, keepers of the knowledge. In that respect atheism can seem religious but it is not. Atheism does not dwell on dogma or the untestable. It does not rely on anything other than the truth that best explains our provable reality. A good Atheistic speaker like Dawkins will always trump even the best theist orator because at the root Dawkins uses the provable. This is deeply unsettling and frustrating to the theist who relies on superstition, dogma and a few battered old texts.
As an example. The Evangelicals and Muslims that harp on about the end of days and cite their prophecies from their respective tomes go to great lengths to quote how precise these age old writing are in predicting current events. But the most momentous events in the history of mankind are not mentioned at all. the first man to leave Earth and the first man on a foreign sphere, the moon, play no part in any prophesy. Why? Because these ancient writings were not prophesy but earlier evangelical "the end of the world is nigh" headcases. All we see is the same tripe repeated again and again...... usually pushed by some megalomaniac madman. Because we have such a long, and sadly often cherished, tradition of harbouring such insanities within our cultures they continue. But they have no basis in fact. No-one has ever had a prediction of any magnitude even close to what such self-important fools profess to have revealed to them. Its all at very best self-delusion...and all too often cynical manipulation.

Atheism is not an easy choice either personally nor in our contemporary world. It is in many respects a lonely place to be at present. But at least it is genuine and honest. It is probably easier to be an atheist in Europe than anywhere else at the moment and I am so very very grateful I live in a place that has allowed my mind to develop free from the societal pressures to conform to the deceptions that abound elsewhere.

Regards

Tao
 
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