Where to draw the line?


Coexistence insha'Allah
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Okay gang, we can agree that this is a very stupid girl who started down an insane path but were her actions enough to justify possible imprisonment in your opinion?

BBC NEWS | UK | 'Lyrical Terrorist led double life'

I would like to withold my opinion until I hear others (but you just know I have an opinion about it :p).

Am I being just a little niave, but I think she is the girl who was justi wanting to stand out from the crowd. In its own way, she was saying it was cool. Shes very immature and stupid and one day I reckon she will be very embarassed by all this. Its a pity that the world today even rates this as a story, for me she is jsut a kid wanting attention. in my day (here we go.....) it was the punk movement. Yeah, i wandered around writing poetry about how governments start wars and we are useless to stop them. I drank, smoked had a beautiful purple mohawk, had ten ear piercings in my right ear, (my friend barb had the left ear done). We were rebelling (against nothing really) made sure everyone saw us and basically run amok. I think she is doing something similar but its been blown out of proportion. Maybe i am niave. by the way a "bint" in my lingo isnt something you would be proud of. LOL
Mate.... If you going to give her a fine or short sentence you best lock me up for freaking life......

This is one of my bits of work from old old old.... times... So... read at your own risk lol.... Obviously I disagree with this 100% now.... But, it is only words... Words are harmless... Stupidity is the danger, those that maybe influenced by simple words.....

Words of protest, which no one understands.
They swarm here in there thousands.
They ruin, abuse and destroy our lands.
Crime rates rise like the number of gangs.
Capitalise on our companies and hire fellow parasitical bands.
Our Government like ostriches with their heads in desert sands.

Eliminate and cease this freeloading invasion.
I care not what problems you face in your own nation.
They are yours, not ours. I ***** hate you with passion.
Take our jobs, benefits, and houses, raise our taxes and over flow our population.

Only few words come to mind when I think of our nations new contamination.
Final solution is my conclusion;

Eradication, obliteration, termination, runiation,
Destruction, dissolution, anhilation, expiration,
cessation, extintiction of these parasites!

Oh how I despise, all these cockroaches all I wish is their demise!
You are this planets cancer, your the tumour, every time a parasite is born an angel dies.....
...as a youth I also wrote some rather savage poetry, most of it glorifying the death of morons, and I also spent a lot of time crafting horror stories involving serial killers and gruesome deaths...I also collected books on forensic psychology and analysis of evidence, and spent quite a lot of time fantasing about killing lots of ppl with bombs, instructions for which I kept in a book by the bed... this behaviour was pretty consistent between the ages of, say, 13- and about 17...

it did not mean I was a serial killer myself, or had leanings towards becoming one...yet...if I had, for example, met an older man who also shared the same leanings, I might have committed murder myself.

and if I had killed, and the police had been in my house and found such writings and such books it would be used against me in court as good circumstantial evidence- it would prove that I had the taste for murder, it would prove that I found it fascinating and worthy of further perusal...and then, this would be used as evidence of premeditation, surely?

however... the facts are: she's not 15, she's 23, she is British, born and bred, she has a job, so by this age her naiviety should have been tempered a little by real life and the world of work, that she says she does not know what extremists are, etc, must be fallacy, unless she's a complete moron, and also blind deaf and dumb, as most 23 year olds know what extremism is, especially if they are Muslim, as they are confronted with such themes every day because they are muslim...

... she did not really begin writing poetry until she was about 18-19, and then it involved the usual- guns and gangstas.. this might be offensive to some, but Tupak Shakur made a name for himself there, didnt he?... regardless...

it was only a few years later did she become Muslim, take up the Hijab, etc, and then become the Lyrical Terrorist... that she states she accidentally stumbled accross extremist Mujahadeen type sites sites is again, I think, a lie.

it sounds to me like she found it funny to pretend to be a terrorist and do her Jihadi thing, maybe she even thought she could make a name for herself in the process, but now the poo has hit the fan she is trying to extract herself from such, by feigning naviety...

however much I may find this behaviour worrying, knowing what I know about how weak and impressionable people, it is not a criminal act to write inflammatory lyrics, poems and prose.

You cannot police fiction, song lyrics, art- we do not live in that type of enviroment.

If these books- Terrorist cookbooks, etc (I had one called the anarchists cookbook, btw) are such inflammatory material, then they should be banned. But what happens when you start banning books? Can we ban the Bible? As a book it supports genocide, infantacide, homophobia, the burning of witches...

when will it stop?

She did not, in my opinion, commit a criminal offence by reading a few books. Nor by writing about the glorification of martyrdom and jihad, is she a criminal... however, under the terrorism act "incitement" or "possession" is enough for them to make you a criminal...

all muslims should note: do not buy Frederick Forsythes' novel, entitled "The Oddessa File", as within this you will find a neat passage which details
how to make a bomb!
Eh, soon simply thinking will be a crime. People will be on trial for spending their time keeping journals instead of shopping. If you don't report to work on time, you will be labeled a 'suspicious individual'. :eek: ;)
A formula for"democratic" governance.

1.Find a young, naieve, average person.
2.Encourage their intellectual explorations into "forbidden" pursuits.
3.Place said person into a context where his/her expressed beliefs may be judged by those who are more "traditional" minded. Better yet have him/her work in a politically sensitive context/environment like an airport wherein he/she may be observed and judged at all times.
4. Single out that person and identify him/her as being "extreme" in their beliefs, hence more likely to put actions to their words/beliefs, and hence are more likely to become a clear and present danger to their more traditional neighbors.
5. Publicize the hell out of his/her persecution.
6. Put him/her "away" either in prison or exile in order to teach a lesson to those who might be tempted in the future to deviate from the propagandized "norm".

What you have here is a systematic approach to engender and spread unwarranted fear throughout post-modern populations, thus rendering said populations to be more "submissive" to harsher observation and intellectual "control" methodologies. Those with "fascist" tendencies must always continue to create enemies to justify their ongoing existence, control, and power.

Eventually creative activities begin to disappear, original thought begins to disappear, even truly felt love begins to disappear, and all are replaced by modes of living wherein people begin to treat each other as "objects" instead of the spiritual beings that they truly are.

Thank you very much Eric Allen Blair *aka George Orwell*

Insightful commentary, flow. True enough, I think.

As a side note, I don't see 1984 as a devil in this, though. Orwell was clearly agitating against such a totalitarian state, don't you think? Or did I miss the point?
Absolutely Pathless...all true artists receive messages of things as they are and things as they will be. Their job is to alert the people to the context and meanings of those messages. Orwell (Blair) was one of our more prescient artists and definitely had a true foreknowledge of what was probably coming.

The past 23 years have proven that. For those of you that doubt me, look up the Chaldean and Greek meanings for "foreknowledge" in your Strong's Concordances.

What is entertainment ? What is prophecy ? Sometimes they are one in the same and stand the tests of time.

I have to agree largely with Francis on this one but would add I think her a coward too for writing that stuff then retracting it when her liberty was at stake. Some martyr :p

I also think what you said Flow to be extremely pertinent. A mountain made out of a molehill. A great opportunity for political capital to made in the sick desire of our government to control our every thought and movement.

I even used to talk about flying a plane into Parliament during the Queen's Speech, (when all the leeches are there), back when Thatcher was in power and I a teenager. But as you say Francis, the anger/extremes of youth soon fade.

She is a rather stupid and spineless wanabe at the end of the day. She obviously hates our "establishment" but she could have done no more for them in the propaganda stakes if she had been paid to do it.

yes, I agree, after all, lets not forget the most recent political hot potato- widening the powers of detention without charging of ppl just like this 23 yr old woman... the average person reading this story will not see there is no real crime, they will see a potential terrorist...
Average people watch WAY too much television ! Almost all of the strategies of government that I mentioned above rely upon that fact of post modern life. Passive reception and uncritical absorption of information automatically renders people clueless.

I am absolutely intrigued by your answers, I saw the story very differently. When I first read it I made the assumption that there must be more to the story, as it is not yet a crime to write poetry (although some of the rubbish poetry I have read maybe it should be).

Therefore I did some digging and it turns out that she joined an organisation aged 15, this organisation has links to some very unsavoury radical groups. As part of the same investigation a man was arrested at the airport leaving for Pakistan with a bag full of cash.

So it seems there is more to this story, however where should we draw the line? Should a person have to actually commit a crime or at least have the makings of committing one (ie bomb making equipment) before they can be arrested? At what point should the security of the population come before a persons personal rights?

What would a person have to do in your view before they should be arrested for crimes related to terrorism?
Hi MW, Salaam:

No I do not believe that the flies in the ointment lie soley within this person's sad story. It exemplifies much larger issues IMHO.

The real problem lies in the utilization of "foreknowledge" technologies by governments and their usage to profile and model the future probabilities of any particular person or group of people to cause disorder at some future point(s) in time. The real problem lies in the misuse of such technologies to "manufacture probable enemies of the state" in order to "scare" the rest of the populace into passivity so that our lives might progress in the ways that those in control wish them to. IMHO, it's all a very unnatural system of societal control and management.

The temptations are too large to resist for those who would "scapegoat" unaware unfortunate mopes who really do not have a clue as to why they're in the situation that they are in. And the television-based media propaganda machinery in developed nations is an integral part of this complex.

Trust me, Big Brother is out there and is doing these things without fear of discovery by the general public because it's all black ops, or increasingly contracted out to corporations that do this stuff in secrecy for fun and profits. I've run into the facts of the matter too many times myself for it not to be true. Orwell was just way ahead of his time in predicting the onset of all this. Or as I like to say, 1984 started in 1984 for some of us.

To answer your final question, we live under and by the law. If we break it we pay a price. The issue is, do we really understand what motivated us to break the law, or were we manipulated into it for someone else's profit or schadenfreude desires ? Post modern societies are now at the point where most individuals are not equipped any more to discern such distinctions.

Films that you might view that give you the essence of these arguments would be Minority Report, DeJaVu, and Enemy of the State.

I have to agree with you there Flow. The programming, the control, is insidious and now so deep that many would laugh at you for suggesting many of its techniques existed at all. As in Huxleys "Brave New World" or that movie "Logans Run" the majority just think you are sick to suggest that this is not the best of all possible worlds.



At what point and for what 'crime' the authorities should intervene is a very difficult question to answer. Games of power are played out that do not match those we see portrayed for general consumption. I feel pretty convinced that every "successful" terrorist labelled event we have seen since and including 9/11 was allowed or even orchestrated by our leaders. Of course I will be called a paranoid conspiracy theorist for that but there are so many facts that add up to what can only mean that an illusion is being painted in our news bulletins. Goebbels would be green with envy.

I have no illusions about what our governments get up to and the dirty little games they play but I am trying to analyse this particular story.

Okay the girl wrote poems - big deal. However those poems were inciting others to commit violence on a grand scale. They included telling Muslims to teach their children, from the age of 7, to watch Jihadist video's and grow up to be martyrs. Tey included poems about how to behead people and what it would feel like (ie glorifying hatred and violence).

Is that not the propogation of terrorist information? Is that not trying to incite terrorist activity in the mainstream population?

Should we ignore such things and hope they grow out of it or nip it in the bud and demonstrate to the population at large that we as a society do not accept this level of deep seated hatred and the call to violence?

Also, while we are in Iraq and Afghanistan killing innocent people do we have a right to say no to violence on our own soil?

My answer about her in particular is that yes she should be prosecuted for incitement to racial hatred. Not terrorism. But ultimately she is a coward and has exposed herself to that truth. She can talk the talk but not walk the walk. Her cowardice has given political capital to her enemies so karmic irony as ever reigns supreme.

If I had been the judge I would have imposed maximum sentence, not for what she wrote, but because she tried to bullshit her way out of it.

Do we have a right to say no to violence on our own soil? Of course we do!! Does not mean we will get it tho.

Do we have a right to say no to violence on our own soil? Of course we do!! Does not mean we will get it tho.

Hi Tao

I agree she should have been prosecuted and will wait with interest to see what sentence she gets on 6 Dec. So many people have see her as a lost girl trying to rebel. For heavens sake she was 23, so was not exactly without knowledge or understanding of what she was doing. I would like to see some Islamic re-education rather than just lock her up though, in the long run I think it would have more effect.

Okay we have the right to say no to violence on our own soil. So what right have we to take violence to other peoples soil?

That was fast!!

None except a self-given hark back to Imperial greatness arrogance on the world stage. Personaly I think the solution simple. Nobody but a UN army is allowed to bear arms. Arms industry would be delighted about that tho wouldn't they.