must religion come to an end?

[Ciel]

True religion is an ambassador of love.

Could all those of Sirius now get the hell out of here, time for you to do some cleaning on your own astral light. And leave us in peace..........

Thus sayeth an volcanic meek, with mighty compassion.

- c -

 

[dauer]

Or we could... get sirius. xD

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I have a hard time resisting a good pun, or a bad one.

 

[Paladin]

Let's face it, people are at different stages of development when it comes to belief and practice. Not going to get into a whole stages of faith thingy here but I suspect there are those present who not only need belief and religion to keep from having an existential meltdown but also need to convince others of it as well. I can love and respect the diverse ideas and beliefs of many religions and philosophies but I know the map isn't really the terrain. At some point don't we really have to put the map down and walk under the heavens, feel the road under our feet and still after learning so very much about God, the Universe and Everything still be able to look into the night sky, all speckled with stars with the same wonder and bewilderment that we used to? Would it be such a terrible thing to open ourselves up to whatever is, and ask what that might be? Can we even stop for a moment and consider that the very process of what we so very arrogantly call "understanding" might be what seperates us from actuality?

You know, sometimes it is enough for me to go about my daily chores and leave the universe to make it's own way without me trying to figure it out. And somedays I sit by a streamside and am awestruck the way a tiny leaf spirals through the air and lands so delicately upon the water, spinning about untill it disappears around a bend.

 

[mee]

True religion is an ambassador of love.

true ,
After Christ had been resurrected to the heavens, being no longer on earth in person, his faithful followers were appointed to act in his place, “substituting for Christ” as ambassadors of God.

The treatment accorded a ruler’s messengers, or envoys, was regarded as treatment given the ruler and his government.

 

[_Z_]

dauer

in the main i simply meant it as the layman would, is there a need for over clarification? i don’t really think so.
it is as simple as; there are Muslims, there are buddhists, christians, jews etc. the religions may be open to each other - not that i see much historical evidence for that - but the followers feel they belong to a single set.

paladin, hail

leads me to think that you like to sail away into the ethers at times

indeed ~ and to be stood firmly on the ground on occasion - at least twice in my life that is .

as if all the practices and religons have had their say to me and now it is up to me

to hit the nail right on the head! [yes exactly] HURRAH!

mee

After Christ had been resurrected to the heavens, being no longer on earth in person, his faithful followers were appointed to act in his place, "substituting for Christ" as ambassadors of God.

thats what i am talking about.

 

[dauer]

_Z_,

I don't think it's accurate to say that you understand it as the layman would. Laymen (of which I am one) and women disagree with each other on many words, including this one. That is why I requested precision. It's very easy to use a word and, throughout a discussion, make reference to different definitions for that word rather than sticking with a single definition and working from it.

What you stated here differs from your previous definitions and doesn't really define the word religion so much as give your thoughts about one particular aspect of religion that you see, which is that it leads to distinct groups. I agree. The nature of words is to define and distinguish things. I don't think it really says that much about religion that could not be said about things like corporations, nations, cultures, political movements etc. If I insert your new definition into your original post it comes across like this:

has [affiliation to particular groups] come to an end?

simple question, difficult answer. in my mind i think people will probably want [affiliation to particular groups] of some kind for a long while yet, this is more an intellectual/wisdom question.

i think [the groups individuals affiliate with] agree and contradict each other on many levels, without believing in a single one it is easy to get confused. in the end it seams like it would be better if i went through life as if there were no [distinct groups].

as long as i can look life in the eye and see what it is thinking, i can find my own answers.

how do you feel; must [affiliation to distinct groups] come to an end?

If that is what you mean, and I am still uncertain if it is because you have defined religion in a few different ways so far, then I don't think there is a reason we should stop affiliating with distinct group. I think it's better to have a rainbow of colors than a gray mush. I think it makes life easier, too, to have larger and smaller collectives and to have language with which to speak about those distinctions. I think it would make more sense to focus on fostering love and tolerance than to think that the distinctions themselves are at fault. An apple is not an orange, nor is it an apple tree.

I think it's unlikely the people of the world will stop affiliating with individual groups. I don't think it would be a productive development if group affiliation ceased.

 

[mee]

True religion will survive God’s judgments, so that, finally, all honor and glory will be given to the One whom Jesus said is "the only true God." He is the One identified by the psalmist who declared: "You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth."—John 17:3; Psalm 83:18.

 

[_Z_]

dauer

That is why I requested precision. It’s very easy to use a word and, throughout a discussion, make reference to different definitions for that word rather than sticking with a single definition and working from it.

upon reflection i agree.

affiliation to distinct groups

yes, and to sets of meanings esp where they set boundaries and draw lines. basically i see things in two basic constructs; in the one, anything that can be put in a box i.e. is limited. then secondly, that of not putting things in boxes nor accepting the constrained views which emanate thereof.
this then is what i mean.

thanks for your wisdom - much appreciated as always.

mee

boxed religion defined.


firstly the text presumes god is judgemental. ‘he’ may not even have the ability or the desire to judge. he created existence, why judge that which you have made and take the blame to the them - especially when they are born in ignorance [and mostly die in it]? the idea seams ridiculous to me.

why would god require honour and glory? these are mundane earthly things.

sure god may be the highest ~ if there is a hierarchy! the problem here is that when we so define god, we place him against other aspects of reality when he is surely all-encompassing. some may divide things in such a manner that they see god as without himself like in the notion of brahman, i personally go the other way and don’t divide him up.

just as 'everything' as entire cannot be defined, nor can god. this is his reality. it is not wisdom to give such a vast and incomprehensable being the limits of man!

 

[Francis king]

interesting...

to me, religion is coming to an end, or rather, the religion of infalliable Gods and unchangable tomes written in stone is ending, and instead, ppl are becoming more spiritual- they do not follow religion because they are supposed to, they follow religion because they want to... sure, they may not be ultraorthodox, they might not even agree with all the articles of faith of their own specific religious systems, but they are usually ethical, and personable, and decent, and inquisitive, and are looking for something good, as they feel there is something good there in religion worth looking for... they are more open to discussion, they are more tolerant of other, different opinions, and there is less insistence about what is right and what is not...

and yet- maybe thats just me in my rose tinted specs... as sometimes, I see something different.. sometimes I notice a rise in ultra-orthodoxy, I see a rise in fanaticism, yet... I think this is just the death throes of the old order as it dies...

yes, there is a huge industry in religion, so much so I myself call it "Religion Inc".... but... was it not always so? think of christian-esque relics, and how much they were bartered for on the open markets, think of the big stupas we have housing objects which might have once belonged to the buddha....

okay, today it is more noticeable, today it is more well managed, and we have Jesus mugs, and buddha mousemats and mohammed (may he be blessed) cookie jars... mormon music, JW jam and scones, christian music channels, soley buddhist publishing houses, faith schools, faith based communities, etc etc, and this in itself is not a bad thing...

money isn't dirty, money isn't greedy, money isnt some maligned root of all evil- in fact- money is very good to have- its very useful to u, if ur a messiah type and want to save the world, as that is what most ppl who need saving really need- they need money for food, for accomodation, for rehabilitation, for recreation, etc, etc...

look at organisations such as...CAFOD, Oxfam, Rokpa, all the small evangelical churches who run soup kitchens and dish out free food to the drug addicts and alkies- do they do good works? yes they do...

I don't agree with the widows mite coming to my cathedral to build a gold statue we can look at when ppl haven't got enough food to eat... but by the same token, I don't think it is right for a priest or monk to have holes in his shoes which let the snow in either...

as for a church that says "...don't buy our stuff, don't fill our coffers, you can do this by yourself"- I have one- my own- and maybe one day the "pundarika tour" will come to a neighbourhood near u!

as for a missionary that says... "you don't need to come to our church, just be a good person (yep), read this book (it's called "the road to nirvana", incidentally), and follow these guidelines (the ole buddhist path). Call me if you need a hand, but don't send money, that would be abhorrent"... erm, I am that missionary!

but, if ppl want to give me money, they can, why not!

 

[bob x]

"sometimes I notice a rise in ultra-orthodoxy, I see a rise in fanaticism, yet... I think this is just the death throes of the old order as it dies... "
I would hope so, but I tend to be pessimistic on that score. At the very least, I have accepted that I am not likely to live long enough to see the orthodoxies die.

 

[Paladin]

Where does religion exist? What could spirituality be comprised of? Is separation from actuality real? We have discussed religion as meme, spirituality as another construct, societetical agreements, afiliations, relationships all according to what? What would happen I wonder if for even a moment we stepped outside our own stories of what is real and what isn't. What would happen if we had no place to stand, nothing to locate us in time and space, stripped of our sureity,our concepts, models and maps. It would be a rare person indeed who would even ask for such a thing.

Religion will not come to an end any sooner than the idea of self deception, dellusion and denial. Spirituality will be with us as long as the human psyche is what it is. Who among us can honestly say that we are not buying into some conceptual reality if only just a little?

There isn't a value judgement here, that would require way more than I could imagine. In addition, I have no where to stand from which to proclaim good, bad or neutral. That might approximate actuality.
The irony is that religion is still the glue that holds together societies. I still manage to engage a life that for all I know might be a "weak and Idle theme yeilding no more than a dream"
Maybe ultimately there is no meaning in the universe, but when I witness the human race, it's triumphs, its tenderness, stupidity and outrageousness, its desire for something better, and its descent into pure evil, I am bewildered.

Must Religion come to an end? Perhaps, for the individual who longs for what is behind even the process of understanding, who must become the truth even if that provides the process of his own undoing.
But in the meantime, there is supper to cook, and I need to change the oil in the truck, cuz there is work to get to in the morning.

 

[mee]

firstly the text presumes god is judgemental.

i think the bible informs us that the whole of mankind will be judged


WHAT PICTURE does Judgment Day call to your mind? Some imagine a great throne, and in front of it a long line of persons who have been resurrected from the dead. As each person passes before the throne, he is judged by his past deeds, all of which are written down in the Judge’s book. Based on the things he did, the person is sent either to heaven or to a fiery hell.

The Bible, however, gives a much different picture of Judgment Day.


It is not a day to be dreaded or feared. Note what the Bible says of God: “He has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed.” (Acts 17:31) This judge appointed by God is, of course, Jesus Christ.

We can be sure that Christ will be fair and just in his judgment.

Jesus, who himself said: “The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.” (John 5:22, KJ) So Jesus will be God’s appointed Judge on Judgment Day. but the judgement of BABYLON THE GREAT oh yes (THE WORLD WIDE EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION)Over the centuries, the world empire of false religion has shed oceans of blood.


“Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.”—Rev. 18:4.


this harlot and yes she will be judged Who is she? she is a global empire, she is religious, and she is Satan’s counterfeit system that he uses in fighting against the seed of God’s woman. (Revelation 12:17)

 

[mee]

okay, today it is more noticeable, today it is more well managed, JW jam and scones,

or even JW telling out the GOODNEWS of better things.

And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. matthew 24;14..

(Mark 13:10) Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first.

(Revelation 14:6) And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

Ok, so what is the goodnews,? the goodnews is that Gods heavenly kingdom goverment is now well established inline with bible prophecy and chronology ,DANIEL 2;44 and Jesus has been given great aurthority .DANIEL 7;13-14. And soon Jesus will go into action and after that only Gods kingdom will be left to rule , so putting our trust in that kingdom will lead to our salvation. Do not put your trust in human set ups , because they are not the way to peace on the earth . look to the one with the legal right and it is Jesus christ . and he is now gathering people from all nations into UNITY REVELATION 7;9-10 I am waving my symbolic palm branch to welcome the one that Jehovah has given kingship too. and it is Jesus christ . and so are millions from all nations . it is the only way to salvation


(Romans 10:18) Nevertheless I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the extremities of the inhabited earth their utterances.”.


and yes you never know they just might have a nice scone along the way .

 

[17th Angel]

I see now that the only thing that must come to an end is hatred.... Division, Lack of equality, lack of unity... Lack of Peace, Lack of freedom... From religion we have a drive, Love.

lack

/læk/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lak]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.deficiency or absence of something needed, desirable


Sorry I was just really curious to the word 'Lack' and what it meant... It's on the nose, I must say...

Religion is just another one of those flowers of Love.. They all bloom at different rates and come out in different colours, scents and styles... But they all can be pretty darn beautiful. Just need the right gardener The better the skill and knowledge of that Gardener, and the more of his/her heart and soul that goes into their flowers... A very rare flower can bloom.... You know how flowers can be! In most enviroments, if not just pure free flowers growing in the wild, they need care and you have to put the effort in, or they wilt.....

 

[mee]

Just need the right gardener The better the skill and knowledge of that Gardener.....

That would be Jesus christ , he has the knowledge of his father Jehovah God . he had the best one to teach him .
and if we listen to Jesus it will go well for us and we can have real good fruitage .


And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him." LUKE 9;35 .

 

[mee]

revelation 18;4 is a command from Jesus .

 

[17th Angel]

Funny how you should say Jesus(saws) Because when I was speaking of the gardener, I meant you, me, whomever else reads it... They are the gardener of their religion mee.... You can make -your- religion wilt or you can make it bloom... Only you can do that, can you just for a moment, just look at any other religion or way, and see if done correctly, that is good, that is Peace, that is Love? Becuase, there is no way I am going to believe that you cannot see any good in another way of life/culture/religion. So yeah, to clear that up folks... I meant -YOU- not which ever leader, saviour, god, gods, messiah, prophets, founders, presidents, elders and whatnot "represent" your religion, because end of the day, these are a rare few, that have made it.... They all represent a different group.

Yes you have them in your religion, that isn't a monopoly, there are no rights to use. Jesus(saws) Muhammad(saws) Ghandi, buddha, Abraham, adalbert! Bernard of Clairvaux, Bibiana, Joan of Arc, Anges of poitiers, Aidan of Lindisfarne, Zarathustra, Shabbetai Tzevi, Al Mahdi, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Krishna, Moses, The Bab, Baha'u'llah, Dalai Lama, Louis Farrakhan, Pope John paul II, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King, Isaiah, Mary Baker Eddy, Loyla, Lao Tsu, Confucius, St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas even John Wycliffe!! These were all once gardeners... And they all represent the same thing, and it isn't religion..... They all started at religion, but it went onto something "bigger" If I may say so in my honest opinion, hold no insult.... Please lol.

Thanks for reading.

 

[mee]

Funny how you should say Jesus(saws) Because when I was speaking of the gardener, I meant you, me, whomever else reads it... They are the gardener of their religion mee....

Thanks for reading.

very true and those who stick to what Jesus taught cannot go wrong he was the greatest teacher and the greatest man who ever lived .
he is the way the truth and the life .

 

[17th Angel]

 

[Gatekeeper]

has religion come to an end?

simple question, difficult answer. in my mind i think people will probably want religion of some kind for a long while yet, this is more an intellectual/wisdom question.

i think religions agree and contradict each other on many levels, without believing in a single one it is easy to get confused. in the end it seams like it would be better if i went through life as if there were no religions.

as long as i can look life in the eye and see what it is thinking, i can find my own answers.

how do you feel; must religion come to an end?

One day all religion will come to an end, and we will be unified in thought, spirit, and purpose. It will be the day God's established kingdom manifests on earth. All the hate, and intollerance, and racism, religious division, and war will be be done away with, and all will be one - "All in all"

I believe it, and am looking forward to the day - even if I'm not alive to see it.

Love

James