Why Christians believe in Jesus although he doesn't fulfill the prophecies??

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by jyhopester, Dec 9, 2007.

  1. MysticMansion

    MysticMansion Interfaith Forums

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    Read the acts of the Apostles which states about just a few of the occasions after Pentecost that sermons were given and how many Jews accepted Baptism. In one cast 5000 men and their families, in another I think about 8000 Men which means their families also. There were only about 40,000 Jews living in Jerusalem at the time of Christ.

    This was only two occasions not all the occasions of Baptism in the Holy land. It was always the majority who accepted Christ.

    The only majority that didn't convert were the Jewish priests who never wanted a Messiah and that is shown clearly in the story of the three wise men. They convinced King Herod to fear the new born and were in that way instrumental in the killing of the innocents by Herod's order.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    How do you know how many Jews lived in Jerusalem?

    You know there weren't 40,000 people in Jerusalem in recorded history until the late 1800's?

    Amazing to me that we have hundreds of years of records and no modern population that large until then.... yet I've seen estimates even larger than yours...

    have you any data/figures you can provide that contradict this paper?

    http://www.hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/article/viewFile/430/329

    It is going with the claim that there weren't more than a thousand jews that converted the entire first century....
     
  3. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Regardless of the number of people in Jerusalem, most of those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, later went back to Judaism when they heard he had "died". That took a few years for some to receive the news due to issues with communication at the time. It seems a vast majority knew that the messiah would not/ could not die. Being ressurected does not constitute not dieing.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I doubt anyone knows the answer to that question. A jewish history site estimates somewhere between 20-50,000 people, although not all Jewish, obviously.

    The idea that we can 'assume' the growth rate of Christianity based on the growth rate of of Mormonism seems somewhat 'out there' to me.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    supporting data for your contention?

    Yes thomas... the growth of mormonism amongst a christian community may not be exactly the same... but it is the only thing I found with an attempt at supporting data and not just conjecture or wishful thinking...

    For the life of me...I can't figure out how there could be 40 or 50,000 there then and then for the next 1800 years the area could not sustain that population...
     
  6. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    This being a matter of faith.
     
  7. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    That Ressurection doesn't support not dieing? If you do not die, how can you be ressurected?
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The very supposition is conjecture. Mormonism grew at a certain rate, therefore it's safe to say that Christianity grew at that rate, too? Really?

    Based on what?
     
  9. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I agree. Just stating there were people who did agree. Noone is saying it is an all encompassing view. If he died and was resurrected, then he died. Regardless of the rest. And that's how most Jews/Muslims see it. We just have different views on what happened. Muslims say Jesus (PBUH) didn't die (which somewhat helps the prophecy), and Jews say, because he died he couldn't be The Messiah, or most even say he couldn't be a prophet.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    doh... I agreed that tying it all to mormonism doesn't amount to much.... however... there is a beginning one guy and his band of merry men...and there is a number of followers that we believe centuries later....and there is some sort of progression, ebb and flow... the paper makes the best arguement for what happened that I've seen so far...you know...he posited something, he dug up evidence and data, and showed how the evidence and data supported his argument... in his mind...

    here all we get is X is true... without anything.... I do it..but say I think or believe or understan...not I know.

    Always willing to look at more info...actual info....

    I ask BJN some proof that all the 'converted' Jews went back to Judaism.... after Jesus died...

    I don't have issues with what people think or believe...fine with me. But the I know, or this happened without anything to support it... I question.
     
  11. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    Just pointing it out for the sake of objectivity.
     
  12. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    did I say all? If so I appoligize. I meant some or maybe even many. This all comes from several Youtube history channels and The History Channel. past that I have read it on several passing Jewish and Muslim websites, and will admit they may be biased. But judging by today's jews, I see no reason to think that some or many of the Jews who had followed Jesus (PBUH) as the Messiah would have rejected his Messianic status when he was "killed"
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I dare say very few followed him as Son of G!d...during his life...they followed him as a teacher, a rebbi...twasn't till AFTER his death and resurrection that the real party started.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    That's my point. The entire paper doesn't amount to much, if you look at it critically. Lot of assumption. Even the language should flag that up.
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    LOL. Pretty safe comment, bearing in mind Scripture says just that!
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi BigJoeNobody –
    I see where you're coming from, but I really think these are unsupported claims made by the TV channels. We just don't have the figures, and the only evidence we have to work on is Scripture, so it depends whether one believes the testimonies or not.

    Based on what we can reconstruct, Jesus founded his base at Capernaum, and was established there before beginning His peripatetic mission, culminating three years later in the third journey to Jerusalem where He was crucified.

    We then have, to over-simplyify, three strata of materials:
    Phase one: The Pauline literature. (c50-60AD)
    This was the first strata, the insights of a Jew who had undergone a profound 'awakening' and who brought a staggeringly 'mystical' message. He had taken the Jewish idea of a 'chosen people' and carried it to its axial extremes – horizontally the 'chosen people' was not a particular tribe, but anyone and everyone, and vertically it wasn't 'the people and God' but 'the people in God'.

    (People who like to declare Paul a 'Hellenist' or whatever really don't get it. They read the letter, not the spirit ... )

    Phase two: The Synoptic literature (c60-80AD).
    The synoptics put the 'flesh and bones' on Paul's mystical message, addressing the particular issues faced by particular communities. Their testimonies are, in a sense, an apologia that already assumes the mystical message of Paul as a given.

    Phase three: the Johannine literature (c70-120AD).
    John settled at Ephesus, a community founded by Paul, and came into contact with a community that was already back-sliding from Paul's holistic preaching into Hellenist duality. John, an eye-witness, re-asserted Paul's mystical teaching with a more thoroughly worked-out theology of mystical union, utilising events from the life of Christ, and underling their meaning – hence he uses the word 'sign' rather than 'miracle'.

    But it is John who shows us, by his observations, that there was dissent in the community right from the very beginning. Even when Jesus was preaching at Capernaum, before He began His travels, there were many who found His teaching on the Eucharist just too much to stomach, and left.

    +++

    The 'problem' of the Cross was that many hoped and believed that Jesus would come again to Jerusalem and lead a popular uprising. He was welcomed like a king. He now had a considerable reputation, and the Sanhedrin took the pragmatic step of getting rid of him, because the Romans would stamp them flat if indeed a populist revolt kicked off.

    When He didn't overthrow their oppressors, the people, who had welcomed Him one day, condemned Him the next.

    The message of peace is the toughest message of the lot.
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    No it doesn't amount to much....but it is the most we've got so far...
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Nothing is never more than nothing.
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    agreed.... but his thesis is the only one that provides any documentation that details anything about the time...

    I searched the net and found nothing to support any of the other numbers tossed around.

    Maybe I ain't no searcher...but appears nobody here has brought anything else to the table better.
     
  20. Esiar

    Esiar New Member

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    My opinion: They're wrong and misunderstand the scriptures. I could go more in dept but you can look into it yourselves.

    Casting out Demons through Jesus & Obvious prophecy (Some of them have double meanings, like Hosea 11:1).
     

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