Hell is a Hoax

Azure24 said:
Say's who me?? OR mee...

Marsh, you do not seem to understand that mankind (including myself), cannot receive any praise...All power is of God!!!

And by the way. All men will have "a back-stage pass" as you put it...

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Mee, actually. I was taking a jab at the class-based system that he preaches where some people are washed whiter in the blood of the lamb than others, which is really appealing if you fancy yourself one of the so-called 144,000 who are born again and will form God's spiritual government (has a party name been decided on yet?). In the same way, fire-and-brimstone Christianity appeals to those who want to lord it over others: "Ha ha, you're going to Hell and I'm going to Heaven because I go to church on Sundays!"

Azure, humans can indeed receive praise; they receive it from each other all the time when they indulge in self-righteousness, just as the Pharisees did. They believe in the Lord because they believe they will get something out of it, and they follow the Lord because they believe they'll be punished if they don't, and they accept this state of affairs because they look at those around them and say, "It's better to be oppressed like this than it is to suffer in Hell for eternity."

Who follows the Lord because it is good to follow the Lord?

Who would still follow the Lord if there was no Heaven? If there was only the sleepy darkness of the grave to look forward to, who would continue to carry their cross and follow their Lord into suffering, rather than to throw it down and indulge in the pleasures of the world?

Who follows the Lord for the Lord's glory, as opposed to for their own glory? Because they envision some wonderful future for themselves?

Selfishness...
 
I think that the idea of an ETERNAL hell, which is the way that it is always put, is appalling and very sad. Where has this idea come from?

People's misinterpretations mostly.

People want to feel superior to others, for most it seems to be an intrinsic need. They take scripture, and twist it to suit their needs. They are right so they go to heaven, and everyone else is beneath them, and wrong, so they go to hell.

They even stole the word from one of the Norse afterlifes, Hel, or Hel's realm.

If there is a bad place that people who don't follow certain teachings will go to forever when they die, it will draw crowds out of fear and also make an elite "saved" class that people will want to be part of.

It's a useful tool, stemming out of man's natural fear of death and what lies beyond it, and his tendency to pick the easier path. It's a good way to fill pews and offering boxes and an excuse to travel around the world to evangelize, drawing in more followers, because "they're trying to save people's souls."

From what? A made up concept? The devil? I won't even get into that...

An eternal hell is wasteful. If I have learned anything from my time in this life it is that God is not wasteful. He is perfect in all that he does.

And the concept of there being a place where an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God is not, makes no sense.

If hell is anything, it is a cleansing place. Like the burning of the trash in Gehenna. Cleansing people of all of the terrible things that they might have done on earth. And that doesn't take forever.

God made everyone, he made everything, and if he was just going to throw most of the people that he made, out into a "place where he is not," then why would he make them in the first place?

It would be wasteful.

It all comes down to free will really. God is omniscient, so there can be no free will, just the illusion. I've gone into this in the free will thread so I wont get into it too much here, but if God knows everything that you will do throughout your whole life, and knew this before he even created the earth, surely he would know if you are going to do something bad. He would know, even before the earth was created, that you would do something bad. So why would he punish you for eternity, for doing something that he created you knowing that you would do?

It would be wasteful. He might as well have not created you in the first place if he was going to do that.

Phew.
I'm not the best at explaining... get too worked up. :eek:
But there you have my views, or what you can make out of them.

See ya! :D
 
immortalitylost said:
If there is a bad place that people who don't follow certain teachings will go to forever when they die, it will draw crowds out of fear and also make an elite "saved" class that people will want to be part of.

It's a useful tool, stemming out of man's natural fear of death and what lies beyond it, and his tendency to pick the easier path. It's a good way to fill pews and offering boxes and an excuse to travel around the world to evangelize, drawing in more followers, because "they're trying to save people's souls."
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If God's goal is to redeem man back to prefallen conditions, then something needs to happen to affect man. If all you are looking is in this world, we are already on the path of destruction. Suppose, though, that God's plan includes a regeneration of both body and soul to new heaven and new earth. Another reality beyond this one.

Man is God's greatest and worst creation, because Man has the freedom of choice. And all of Man's choices have accumlated throughout history to land us in this point in time, for good or ill. There is beauty and there is destruction, wars and peace, good and bad. From the beginning, God laid out the plan that Man ought to have fallen. Had we chosen the right choices, we wouldn't be in the messy state we are in now. All of our collective choices has brought us to the brink. I don't see us changing our ways anytime soon.

If we are to believe in a Creator God, then that implies that He also knows what is best for us. If you are building a house, you ought to have a blueprint, or it's going to look shabby and ineffecient. We can either chose to follow Him or chose not to. By chosing not to, we are going on shoddy plans.

If God is the epitome of love, then His demand is perfect love. If He offers a way to obtain it, assuming we cannot attain it ourselves, then by becoming One with Him will bring harmony and peace to our lives. Going against that grain will be the antithesis of love, and our lives will devolve into hell.

If God is everywhere, which I believe He is, then anyone that is not in harmony and peace and love with God is going to experience quite the opposite, and all that God is will seem to be a burning to that person. David said that if he made his bed in hell, God is there. The bible also says that God is a consuming fire. If that's the case, then anyone not in tune with God is going to experience God as a consuming fire. Whether that fire manifests itself physically or spiritually, I suppose is subject to debate, but the principle here is that hell is proportional to the the state which we are in.

I, for one, am not opposed to the idea of remedial fires, in whatever manifestion that is. I like to think that God in His mercy will make some way to make it crystal clear what He expects out of all of us and that He will make every effort to get us to turn toward Him, whether there is a purification process or revealing knowledge of the path. But I don't believe that anyone will go to hell through ignorance, unless it is self-imposed.

My hope, at the persent, is in Jesus Christ.
 
Dondi said:
If God's goal is to redeem man back to prefallen conditions, then something needs to happen to affect man. If all you are looking is in this world, we are already on the path of destruction. Suppose, though, that God's plan includes a regeneration of both body and soul to new heaven and new earth. Another reality beyond this one.

Man is God's greatest and worst creation, because Man has the freedom of choice. And all of Man's choices have accumlated throughout history to land us in this point in time, for good or ill. There is beauty and there is destruction, wars and peace, good and bad. From the beginning, God laid out the plan that Man ought to have fallen. Had we chosen the right choices, we wouldn't be in the messy state we are in now. All of our collective choices has brought us to the brink. I don't see us changing our ways anytime soon.

If we are to believe in a Creator God, then that implies that He also knows what is best for us. If you are building a house, you ought to have a blueprint, or it's going to look shabby and ineffecient. We can either chose to follow Him or chose not to. By chosing not to, we are going on shoddy plans.

If God is the epitome of love, then His demand is perfect love. If He offers a way to obtain it, assuming we cannot attain it ourselves, then by becoming One with Him will bring harmony and peace to our lives. Going against that grain will be the antithesis of love, and our lives will devolve into hell.

If God is everywhere, which I believe He is, then anyone that is not in harmony and peace and love with God is going to experience quite the opposite, and all that God is will seem to be a burning to that person. David said that if he made his bed in hell, God is there. The bible also says that God is a consuming fire. If that's the case, then anyone not in tune with God is going to experience God as a consuming fire. Whether that fire manifests itself physically or spiritually, I suppose is subject to debate, but the principle here is that hell is proportional to the the state which we are in.

I, for one, am not opposed to the idea of remedial fires, in whatever manifestion that is. I like to think that God in His mercy will make some way to make it crystal clear what He expects out of all of us and that He will make every effort to get us to turn toward Him, whether there is a purification process or revealing knowledge of the path. But I don't believe that anyone will go to hell through ignorance, unless it is self-imposed.

My hope, at the persent, is in Jesus Christ.
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Man chose to be independant of God. That decision, and subsequent actions have brought us to where we stand now...
 
All that I am saying is that even in the bible there is no mention of an eternal hell. No mention of hell at all to be precise, not as originally written. And I believe that God is everywhere, you cannot be in a place where he is not, yes your right. It is the concept of eternal hell and not hell itself that bothers me. Why it doesn't bother everyone, who can guess. That was all that I was trying to say really.

see ya!
 
Hi folks,

I don't post here anymore (I don't even visit either), but I see my thread is still here (and the one about free will), since maybe over a year now. I guess it's one of those universal subjects that everybody talks about...

Anyway I just want to cover up on what immortalitylost had just written. God is everyone...

We read in Jeremiah 23:24.

"Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD."

Yet we read in Gen. 3:9.

"And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?"

Is anyone here reading this going to tell me God did not know where Adam was? So you see just because God asks does not mean God does not know...

The first quote is the absolute the second is the relative...

I made a thread about this once. Anyhow the best example can give about these two types of truths is about Jesus speaking to the multitude in parables...

Now, we are told in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and John that Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables and ONLY parables...

"All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34)

"But without a parable spoke He not unto them…" (Mark 4:34).

Now contrary to belief, Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables so the multitude could not understand him.

"This parable spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them" (John 10:6).

Why? Because...

"...Because it is given unto you [Apostles] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them [multitude] it is not given" (Matt. 13:10-11).

Yet, in Matthew. 13:51 after several parables...

"Jesus said unto them [multitude], Have ye understood all these things?"

Cheeky? No, not really. You see God asks us questions for our own benefit...The multitude's response to Jesus was:

"YEA, Lord"

But...

"But THEY UNDERSTOOD NOT that saying, and were afraid to ask Him" (Mark 9:32).

You see, they were afraid...Just like Adam in Gen.3:10.

"I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

Notice I highlighted naked....It's true that Adam was naked, but what you may not know is that Adam was also naked in another way. He was SPIRITUALLY naked...The same is true exactly for the multitude...

And because Adam was naked he hid....Hid from what? God? But what is God? God is TRUTH. And if you hide from truth, you will be found by lies and you will not love the truth. And if you do not love the truth, you love lies. The same again is true for the multitude.

Most people understand the Scriptures in the relative, to truly understand the Scriptures we need to understand it in the Absolute...

Most say Hell isn't a mythical feiry place where Satan lives, they say Hell is a place absent from God... This is true, but not in the way they understand. You see the truth is... Hell IS death.

God refers to Himself many times in the Scriptures as the Living God (Matt.16:16), (Matt.22:32), (Matt.26:63), (Mark. 12:27), (Luke.20:38), (John.6:69) etc,etc,etc....

He's called that for a reason....Without God, there literally is no life....

In the relative Jesus died to save believers, in the absolute Jesus died to save all mankind. Now I would quote this, but I have...so many times. God has given assurance to everyone that we WILL have access to the tree of life (Jesus Christ). But to get to the tree of life (Jesus Christ) we Must first go through the flaming sword flashing back and forth (Gen.3:24). The flaming sword meaning God's purifying spirit...
 
Ok, ok I will quote...The reason why we will ALL be saved is because Hell IS death, and Death will eventually be abolished....Therefore Hell is abolished...

I.Cor.15:26....

Now, what I am about to say is simple and yet profound at the same time...Listen carefully...

If Death is abolished....No one will no longer be dead!!! Still don't get it?

There are only two things a person can be in this world...DEAD or ALIVE...And if death is abolished....We only have one thing left....LIFE. I know.... it's profound, it's that easy but few people actually understand this verse. And remember you CANNOT live without God, hence God is the LIVING God as I mentioned in the previous post....Unbelievebale isn't ?:)

But wait there's more... Read Romans. 5:12...

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned..."

and chapter 6, verse 23...

"For the wages of sin is death..."

But I just showed you that death will be abolished....But guess what has to be abolished with it, yes folks. Sin. How is this brought about you ask? Jesus Christ.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom. 8:2)

And there you have it, in a nutshell. Jesus Christ truly is the saviour of mankind.
 
immortalitylost said:
All that I am saying is that even in the bible there is no mention of an eternal hell. No mention of hell at all to be precise, not as originally written. And I believe that God is everywhere, you cannot be in a place where he is not, yes your right. It is the concept of eternal hell and not hell itself that bothers me. Why it doesn't bother everyone, who can guess. That was all that I was trying to say really.

see ya!
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No, eternal damnation (which is the basis of the doctrine of Hell) is mentioned plenty of times. The question is this: does "Hell" exist right now, or will it exist at the time of the end?
 
Marsh said:
No, eternal damnation (which is the basis of the doctrine of Hell) is mentioned plenty of times. The question is this: does "Hell" exist right now, or will it exist at the time of the end?
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Well, if we are to take the story of the swine herd jumping off the cliff after legion begged Jesus not to send them back to that "place"...there could be an argument for hell existing right now...
 
So there was a hell before people could even get into heaven? Me thinks not. Sheol was there, the general place where all souls went in those times. Has anyone ever thought that it was evil spirits, as in people's spirits, possessing people and not 'demons'. Just a thought.

See ya!
 
Sheol is death, Hades is death, Hell is death. They are all the unseen, the unperceptible where there is no knowledge, no thoughts and no counsciousness. We have to undertsand this. No one goes to Heanven when they die immortalitylost. The thing is, we our brought up with so much consistant rubbish that we accept it as truth in our subconscious mind.

No one goes to Heaven when they die...Jesus clearly said:

"...NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven..." (John.3:13)

There are many Scriptures that tell us where a person goes when he "dies." The Scriptures say he "returns" from where he "came." So if he goes to Heaven, then he "came" from Heaven; if he goes to Hell, then he "came" from Hell. But Scriptures do not teach that people "RETURN" to heaven or hell when they die. Read these plain and simple verses that tell us exactly where man came from and where he goes when he dies:

"...till you return [Hebrew, shub]unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:17-19).

"...till you return [Hebrew, shub]unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:17-19).

"Remember I pray you that as clay you did make me, and unto dust you will cause me to return" (Job 10:9)

"You cause man to return unto dust..." (Psa. 90:3).

"His spirit [the Hebrew word here is ruach, spirit, not neshamah, breath] goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psa. 146:3-4).

"...you gather in their spirit [Hebrew ruach, spirit] they expire [Hebrew gava, breathe out, gasp, expire], and return to their dust" (Psa. 104:29).

"For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; ... as the one dies, so dies the other; yea, they have all one spirit; and man has no preeminence above the beasts [in death]: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust again" (Ecc. 3:18-21).

Will anyone reading this seriously contend that BEASTS return to either heaven or hell when they die? Have we not just read in Ecc. 3:18-21 that "ALL [both men and beasts] go unto ONE PLACE?" And aren’t "heaven AND hell" TWO PLACES rather that "ONE PLACE?" Am I going too fast for anyone?

Where did King David go when he died?

 "...David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day..." "For David is NOT ascended into the heavens..." (Acts 2:29 & 34).

Is Abraham enjoying bliss in heaven? Read John.8:52...

If anyone believes Hell is this place or that place or whatever... please state to me clearly where it says it in scripture...
 
Okay then. You speak of Jesus saying that no man has ascended to heaven. When he was alive. OF COURSE no one had gone to heaven yet, they coudn't get there until after his death, when he opened up 'the gates' for us. David, Abraham, same deal. All souls previous to Jesus's death were trapped in Sheol. No hell either you notice, not that there IS a conventional hell even now.

All of your scripture quotes with the dust, returning to dust. It's just a simple reminder to all from the writer that God created man from the earth.

What makes you think that people come into this world from either heaven or hell? Where are you getting that from?

And the verse about the beasts, it sounds more like the writer means to remind people that they are no better than beasts in the end. Both die and return to the earth, the dust.

Why can't heaven and hell be one place? God created both. Perhaps, since I'm thoroughly sure that hell is nothing like the modern Christian conception, It could share space with heaven? Where is heaven after all? How are we to tell how the spiritual plain manifests itself?

But you seem to speak of hell as if it were a real place, and clearly a separate place from heaven, and then dismiss it as made up. I'm rather curious as to which you really believe.

Anyways wonderful reading your thoughts, and I hope that you won't dislike me now.

See ya!
 
Also why is it that you hold to Revelations so strongly. It's almost as if this one book for you precludes the rest of the bible. It's just one man's vision. One man's dream. Very vivid, yes, and written in much more detail than most, but what makes this so compelling that you seem to refer to this book above others if there is a contradiction or misunderstanding. It is the cornerstone of your whole perception of the afterlife. Not trying to be mean, or judge your beliefs, just interesting I guess.

See ya again!
 
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