Trinity

[Thomas]

The Son of God, though, did not then go on to say, ‘and on you, Peter, I will build my congregation.’ No. He said, "on this rock-mass I will build my congregation." Since the subject under consideration was the identity of Jesus, the "rock-mass" must have been the one whom Peter acknowledged as "the Christ, the Son of the living God." In other words, Jesus was saying, ‘Upon the rock-mass, which you, Peter, confess, I will build my congregation.’

Stuff and nonsense. That is your own man-made interpretation to suit your own agenda. Consider:

Matthew 16:18:
"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Now, we know the man's name was Simon bar Jonah, and here we have him named 'Peter', "Cephas, meaning 'rock' ... and it's upon that rock ... that is Peter ... that He will build His Church.

Not Jesus says "I will build my Church" ... on Peter, by implication ... which means the Petrine Church is Christ's Church ... all others are counterfeit.

Otherwise you are saying Jesus introduced 'cephas' as a purely spurious and meaningless point, the only possible reason being to render the Scriptures unintelligible ... why introduce the name 'rock' attached to Simon bar Jonah at all, if not to make a point that it is Peter on which the Church is founded?

+++

In fact Christ says these words in response to Peter's confession which, as Christ says, could only have been revealed by God. So Christ will build His Church on the Revelation given by God to Peter ...

Matthew 16:17
"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven."
Note Simon is blessed by God with this knowing ... so Jesus treats this as a signal of His Father's doing ... it is His Father's will ...

That the apostles did not understand Jesus’ statement to signify that Peter was the rock-mass is evident from the fact that they later disputed about who seemed to be the greatest among them. (Mr 9:33-35; Lu 22:24-26) There would have been no basis for such disputing had Peter been given the primacy as the rock-mass on which the congregation was to be built.

And the Apostles were the first to admit they often did not know or understand the implication of what He said to them.

The Scriptures clearly show that as foundation stones, all the apostles are equal.

Well clearly they do not as it is evident in Acts and the Epistles that Peter was considered 'first amongst equals' ...

All of them, including Peter, rest upon Christ Jesus as the foundation cornerstone.

Of course, it is Our Lord's Church after all, it does not belong to them, it was entrusted to Peter, and to them.

Thomas

 

[path_of_one]

im a vampire and a christian and i believe that my views on death, disease and natural disasters are influenced by my living for thousands of years and seeing lots of religious stuff. so i would say that im in some esotoric minority but i believe in God, i just like to bite people, but i was born that way i didnt choose it.

Are you poking fun at me, Blazyn? Because I chuckled, but would much prefer you just tell me directly what you are thinking. I am not in some "esoteric minority." The indigenous religions of my ancestors affected Christianity considerably in how it was expressed early on in the Celtic lands (hence, Celtic Christianity) and you can still see many of the impacts to the Episcopalian and Anglican church today. Furthermore, the modern Druid movement was started by Christians and still has a considerable number of Christians in it today.

I know a lot of Christians who see death and disease as an enemy and evil. I also know a lot of them that don't. I don't claim any sort of special knowledge about anything, but like everyone I have my beliefs that are a result of my experience of God, reading the Bible, reading other Christian writers, and comparing these things to other religious texts and practices. There is nothing "hidden" (esoteric) about it. The stuff I read and practice is out there for anyone to look at, should they get interested. It's nothing earth-shattering- I just worship God in a way that incorporates loving and caring for the Earth and all beings.

Haven't a clue what the vampire reference is about, but I guess it's just for humorous value.

 

[mee]

Stuff and nonsense. That is your own man-made interpretation to suit your own agenda. Consider:



Thomas

all spirit-begotten followers of Christ are equally stonelike, with Jesus as their foundation cornerstone.—1 Corinthians 10:4; Ephesians 2:19-22; Revelation 21:2, 9-14.


It is also of interest that Augustine (354-430 C.E.), usually referred to as "Saint Augustine," at one time believed that Peter was the rock-mass but later changed his view. Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (Mt 16:18, ftn, p. 296) quotes Augustine as saying: "The rock is not so named from Peter, but Peter from the rock (non enim a Petro petra, sed Petrus a petra), even as Christ is not so called after the Christian, but the Christian after Christ. For the reason why the Lord says, ‘On this rock I will build my church,’ is that Peter had said: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On this rock, which thou hast confessed, says he, I will build my church. For Christ was the rock (petra enim erat Christus), upon which also Peter himself was built; for other foundation can no man lay, than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."—Translated and edited by P. Schaff, 1976.

 

[Thomas]

Mee —

I think your interpretation of Jesus referring to Himself when He talks of the rock makes no sense in the context of the Scripture. As ever, pulling a verse here and there out of the whole enables one to argue anything one likes.

But more significantly, Matthew 16:19:
"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
That gives Peter authority in Our Lord's name on earth (and indeed in heaven).

And again: Ephesians 2:20:
Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

No-one argues that Jesus is the head of the Church, and the Church is His Mystical Body ... but the text is plain that authority over the Church is granted to the Apostles and their successors.

Thomas

 

[mee]

The combined testimony of the Scriptures thus makes it clear that Jesus, the one whom Peter acknowledged as "the Christ, the Son of the living God," is the rock-mass. It is on him that the congregation is built, with the apostles, including Peter, serving as a secondary foundation.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Mee -

I see you go on to repeat your point, without addressing any of the issues i have raised.

The combined testimony of the Scriptures thus makes it clear that Jesus, the one whom Peter acknowledged as "the Christ, the Son of the living God," is the rock-mass.

Well obviously it does not, because that is a very idiosyncratic interpretation held by your tradition alone, the tradition of men ... so the implication is that the error lies with you.

On the other hand, I have the testimony of the saints and sages who interpret the text according to the Tradition of the Apostles, to whom the Word of Scripture, and its transmission, was entrusted by Our Lord.

The closing of the Gospels states it plainly:

Matthew 28:19-20
"Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
This to the Apostles

Mark 16:15
"And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature."
This to the Apostles

Luke 24:44, 49
"And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled which are written in the law of Moses and in the prophets and in the psalms, concerning me. Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures ... And I send the promise of my Father upon you... "
This to the Apostles ... note that Christ opens their understanding ... so I would suggest if you want the true interpretation of Scripture, look to the Petrine Office — any other that does not accord with this is counterfeit.

John 21:15-17
"When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep."

Need I say more?

Thomas

 

[mee]

The closing of the Gospels states it plainly:

Matthew 28:19-20
"Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
This to the Apostles

Mark 16:15
"And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature."
This to the Apostles

Luke 24:44, 49
"And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled which are written in the law of Moses and in the prophets and in the psalms, concerning me. Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures ... And I send the promise of my Father upon you... "
This to the Apostles ... note that Christ opens their understanding ... so I would suggest if you want the true interpretation of Scripture, look to the Petrine Office — any other that does not accord with this is counterfeit.

John 21:15-17
"When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep."

Need I say more?

Thomas

very true indeed , those words were spoken to the followers of christ and then Jesus went back to heaven, in fact the last thing Jesus said was in matthew 28;19-20

and when he came into kingdom power in 1914,(inline with bible prophecy and chronology) he shortly after inspected to see how things were going , what did he find ? there were many ones who claimed to be doing his will and claiming to be teachers of the bible , but what did he find ?

he found that many had been misled just as he had foretold , and those who claimed to represent him had infact taken on many babylonish teachings and had made the word of God invalid.

so then who really are the faithful ones , who are really doing what Jesus taught and commanded .


Jesus was ready to give them lots more responsibility if they were doing it the right way , and he would also feed them lots of good spiritual food and the true knowledge would become even more abundant. and Jesus has chosen the ones that were faithful .

matthew 24;45-47 Daniel 12;4 getting back to what Jesus REALLY taught is the way to go , and in this time of the end the command from Jesus is to GET OUT OF HER ( the worldwide empire of false religion) revelation 18;4


and a GREAT CROWD from all nations are heeding that command and here they are spoken of in revelation 7;9-10 it seems that those who thought they were the ones , were not the ones at all, and there is a big change around .

pure worship is around . and there is no adultarating and manmade dogmas in sight. matthew 24;45-47

 

[Thomas]

so then who really are the faithful ones , who are really doing what Jesus taught and commanded.

Catholic and Orthodox, first up, the ones who can demonstrate a continuous tradition of adherence to Scripture ... than as time goes on, man moves closer and closer to his own ideas, reinterprets Scripture to suit himself ...

getting back to what Jesus REALLY taught is the way to go , and in this time of the end the command from Jesus is to GET OUT OF HER ( the worldwide empire of false religion) revelation 18;4

I know! You guys and your new-fangled interpretations ... but will you listen, Mee?

... and there is no adultarating and manmade dogmas in sight ...

Like this 1914 thing?

Thomas

 

[mee]

Catholic and Orthodox, first up, the ones who can demonstrate a continuous tradition of adherence to Scripture ... than as time goes on, man moves closer and closer to his own ideas, reinterprets Scripture to suit himself ...


I know! You guys and your new-fangled interpretations ... but will you listen, Mee?


Like this 1914 thing?

Thomas

ok ,as this thread is about the trinity, Jesus did not teach the trinity, but many have taken on manmade things which have there roots in babylonish teachings and the trinity is just one of those teachings, plus the immortality of the human soul . and as we all know those teachings are rife in christendom.


but they do not want to give these babylonish teachings up ,they are happy to be contaminated with manmade doctrines .


when Jesus came to inspect he could have chosen any of the ones claiming to be Gods followers of the bible , but he chose the ones that were sincere about getting things right inline with the bible .

and i am glad to say that the 1914 date is inline with bible prophecy and chronology, and the understanding is very abundant in this time of the end Daniel 12;4 and yes the understanding is being revealed to those who Jesus is feeding matthew 24;45-47 .


yes Gods people do not go hungary in a spiritual way ,they are full to the brim with understanding , and it is all bible based good food .

but i think most people can see that the ones who are in darkness with no enlightenment at all are just going their own way, and casting the bible aside.

its more a case of going along with what the world wants ,rather than sticking to the bible and its teachings .

so Jehovahs people(the great crowd revelation7;9-10 do not listen to those that are not inline with the bible they listen to the channel Jesus is feeding matthew 24;45-47 and it is very good

 

[Thomas]

ok ,as this thread is about the trinity, Jesus did not teach the trinity,

Yes He did ... you just don't understand. There is Father, there is the Son, and there is another ...

John 14:16
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever"
(my emphasis)

John 14:26
"But the Paraclete, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
Note also the Father sends in the name of the Son

John 15:26
"But when the Paraclete is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

John 16:7
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Paraclete will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you"

If you would only listen, you would understand.

but many have taken on manmade things which have there roots in babylonish teachings and the trinity is just one of those teachings ...

Not so, and it shows how clouded your hearts are that you cannot see it, so full of your own self-justification ... so quick to condemn...

when Jesus came to inspect he could have chosen any of the ones claiming to be Gods followers of the bible , but he chose the ones that were sincere about getting things right inline with the bible .

Yep. The ones who don't invent spurious and ill-founded prophecies.

and i am glad to say that the 1914 date is inline with bible prophecy and chronology, and the understanding is very abundant in this time of the end Daniel 12;4 and yes the understanding is being revealed to those who Jesus is feeding matthew 24;45-47.

OK. Show me where it says 1914. And if it doesn't, please explain how this is not a manmade doctrine.

but i think most people can see that the ones who are in darkness with no enlightenment at all are just going their own way, and casting the bible aside...

... its more a case of going along with what the world wants ,rather than sticking to the bible and its teachings...

But Mee, that's precisely what your people did!

Thomas

 

[mee]

Yes He did ... you just don't understand. There is Father, there is the Son, and there is another ...



Thomas

holy spirit ,

and having the correct understanding about just what the holy spirit is, means we are not misled to take on board manmade doctrines like the trinity teaching . but many have been misled down through the centuries and people have got to believe it .
so you are correct i do not understand the trinity because it is not a bible teaching .
and remember it is not just Jehovahs people who can see the truth about that , others also can see from the bible that it is not a bible teaching.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Mee —

The Bible says more about the Trinity — the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (all mentioned by name) that it says about 1914 (never mentioned at all), so who's believing in manmade doctrines now?

You can quote any text you like, but unless you can quote the verse that explicitly says '1914' — then that is your interpretation of the text, it is not what the text says.

In short:
Catholics interpret what is there.
Jehovah's Witnesses read into the text what is not there.

There is no way in the world you can accuse anyone of manmade doctrines whilst you continue to propound your own doctrine of 1914, without hypocrisy. You are guilty of precisely the accusation you lay against others.

Thomas

 

[mee]

Hi Mee —

The Bible says more about the Trinity — the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (all mentioned by name) that it says about 1914 (never mentioned at all), so who's believing in manmade doctrines now?

You can quote any text you like, but unless you can quote the verse that explicitly says '1914' — then that is your interpretation of the text, it is not what the text says.

In short:


Catholics interpret what is there.
Jehovah's Witnesses read into the text what is not there.

There is no way in the world you can accuse anyone of manmade doctrines whilst you continue to propound your own doctrine of 1914, without hypocrisy. You are guilty of precisely the accusation you lay against others.

Thomas

are you not aware that the bible is a book of phophecy , and that many have fallen asleep to bible prophecy , i am glad to say that those who have not fallen asleep are now enlightened indeed. Daniel 12;4 those weeds that were sown along with the wheat , are now very clear to see .

Jesus said that those weeds would be allowed to grow up with the wheat ,

Before the "weeds" of false Christianity are collected and destroyed, however, Jesus’ illustration indicates something else that must happen. For centuries the growth of false Christian "weeds" was so extensive that the "wheat" of true Christianity was practically obscured. But Jesus described the wheat being separated from the weeds during the "harvest," which he said represents "a conclusion of a system of things." He also said: "At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun." (Matthew 13:39-43) The evidence shows that we have been living in the conclusion of the system of things since World War I, 1914 (Matthew 24:3, 7-12) make no mistake its all happening, along with all the other evidence inline with bible prophecy and chronology . those who have not been blinded are seeing things very clear indeed. and the flashes of understanding are becoming brighter and stronger than ever.

 

[mee]

Hi Mee —


Jehovah's Witnesses read into the text what is not there.



Thomas[/quote
Or even true knowledge that has been made abundant Daniel 12;4Daniel 2;44

 

[mee]

Hi Mee —



you continue to propound your own doctrine of 1914,

Thomas

or even to make known
1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

 

[BlaznFattyz]

how did this thread go from discussing god revealing himself in three persons to feeding the attention hog by discussing the religion of false prophecies and numerology in a christian forum. god is spirit, so he reveals himself thru the spirit which manifests himself here on earth while the father is still in heaven his presence is here on earth. for a time thru jesus while god walked among us, and thru the holy spirit that dwells with true believers and the church who take the gospel of jesus christ and salvation to the ends of the earth.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Mee —

are you not aware that the bible is a book of phophecy...

That may well be all it is to you, but that is not all it is to Christians.

Show me where it says 1914, if you can't do that, then it is your tradition, not God's.

... and that many have fallen asleep ...

Your doctrine.

The evidence shows that we have been living in the conclusion of the system of things since World War I, 1914 (Matthew 24:3, 7-12) ...

I see nothing in Matthew 24:3, 7-12 that says 1914 ... so this is your manmade doctrine, not the Apostle's.

Thomas

 

[mee]

I see nothing in Matthew 24:3, 7-12 that says 1914 ... so this is your manmade doctrine, not the Apostle's.

Thomas

For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, matthew 24;7
think about it ,when was the first time that all nations became involved in the war , ......world war 1 1914 .....and as we all know it is known as the great war . this was the first time that this happened , yes there had been wars before the first world war but this was something different whole nations were involved , yes the signs of the times are upon us and it was the START of the last days in 1914 ,and now we are well along into bible prophecy and the signs that Jesus spoke of . of cause this is only one of the things that point to 1914 the bible points to other things as well .







1914 A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.


How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.
When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.


In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?



Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.


​

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.


Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.







​

 

[mee]

Hi Mee —






Your doctrine.





Thomas

no manmade doctrines just good bible based information


"Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments."—REVELATION 16:15.


Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that YOU may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man."LUKE 21;36

"Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU know neither the day nor the hour. MATTHEW 25;13

Knowing just where we are in the stream of time means we are not caught out ,


Keep looking, keep awake, for YOU do not know when the appointed time is. mark 13;33


yes, keeping awake to bible prophecy and chronology means that we know just where we are in the stream of time .


Continuing

to Keep on the Watch​

"SINCE Jesus clearly stated that no man could know ‘that day’ or ‘the hour’ when the Father will order his son to ‘come’ against Satan’s wicked system of things, some may ask: ‘Why is it so urgent to live in expectation of the end?’ It is urgent because practically in the same breath, Jesus added: ‘Keep looking, keep awake . . . keep on the watch.’ (Mark 13:32-35

Jehovah’s Witnesses have been watching for decades now. Watching for what? For Jesus’ coming in Kingdom power to execute judgment against Satan’s wicked system of things and to extend the full benefits of his Kingdom reign earth wide! (Matt. 6:9, 10; 24:30; Luke 21:28; 2 Thess. 1:7-10) These watching ones know that the "sign" of Jesus’ presence has been in evidence since 1914 and that the present system of things entered its last days in that year.—Matt. 24:3–25:46.
But, as yet, Jesus has not come as Executioner and Deliverer.
​

​

​

 

[mee]

and thru the holy spirit that dwells with true believers and the church who take the gospel of jesus christ and salvation to the ends of the earth.

its all happening
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. matthew 24;14


And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 GO therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." matthew 28;19-20




the last thing Jesus commanded was to GO and it is being done on a worldwise scale , and Jesus is with those ones .


Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first. mark 13;10



its all happening


How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent forth? Just as it is written: "How comely are the feet of those who declare good news of good things! ROMANS 1;15