Trinity

Do you believe in the Trinity?

  • Yes, completely

    Votes: 7 36.8%
  • No, vehemently

    Votes: 2 10.5%
  • Yes, but not like you think.

    Votes: 4 21.1%
  • It doesn't concern me in my belief

    Votes: 4 21.1%
  • None of the above

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19
For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, matthew 24;7 ... think about it ,when was the first time that all nations became involved in the war , ......world war 1 1914
Wrong. Many nations, yes ... but not all ... and many nations had been involved in conflicts mant times before.

The error, Mee, is in reading the bit that suits your argument, and ignoring the bits that don't. Whereas the good Christian reads the whole thing, and listens to what Scripture is saying:

Matthew 24:4-5
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
You see, you've missed the point that WWI was not a war of religion, it was about politics and industrialisation. According to the text you cite, wars will come about by those proclaiming to be the Christ ... this is nothing at all to do with the causes of WWI — so even by your own favoured text, you've got the wrong war.

The Thirty Years' War (1618-1648) however, was a religious war, a direct conflict between Catholics and Protestants over who spoke in the name of Christ. So reading Scripture, Thirty Years' War fits the bill better.

Matthew 24:6
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet."
That confirms it, then. There was so much politiking going on!

Matthew 24:7
"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom... "
Yes ... all the nations of the Holy Roman Empire were involved.

"... and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."
Yes again! A huge factor of the Thirty Years' War was that mercenary armies were used extensively, and entire regions were scavenged bare by the foraging armies. Famine and disease were widespread and devastated the population of the German states and, to a lesser extent, the Low Countries and Italy. Whole countries became bakrupt. The war may have lasted for 30 years, but the conflicts that triggered it continued unresolved for a much longer time.

On a relative scale, the 30YW was far worse than than WWI — the European population in WWI suffered shortages, but not famine, nor pestilence, on the scale of Europe in the 30YW.

Over the course of the TYW, the population of the German states was reduced by 30%; in the territory of Brandenburg, the losses had amounted to half, while in some areas an estimated two-thirds of the population died. Germany’s male population was reduced by almost half. The population of the Czech lands declined by a third. The Swedish armies alone destroyed 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns in Germany, one-third of all German towns.

Mat 24:8
"All these [are] the beginning of sorrows."
Yep. The 30YW changed the map of Europe thereafter.

So my suggestion is, according to Scripture, The Thirty Years' War is a far better candidate.

yes there had been wars before the first world war but this was something different whole nations were involved,
Wrong again. Every country in Europe was involved, and the battles took place over a far wider geographic region. Also, only the armies of nations were involved, whereas in the TYW the civilians populations suffered terribly, being slaughtered on a wide scale.

I suggest your 'biblical students' have made errors due to a poor grasp of history.

The rest is just a matter of working Scripture to produce the answer you want to find. That has been proven scientifically — even by JWs who have 'revised' their findings on more than one occasion.

And furthermore:
Mat 24:36:
"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
This is the bigger issue ... you actually ignore the Word of Scripture by even trying to find some kind of date, by setting a timetable for God ... the teaching of Our Lord is clear — we must be ready for His coming at all times, for no man knows when that time will be — and you think you know, and I say that you are wrong.

D'you think that a man in 1414 say, will be forgiven for not bothering because he worked out that the coming of the kingdom was not for another five hundred years?

Thomas
 
So my suggestion is, according to Scripture, The Thirty Years' War is a far better candidate.



Thomas

1914 was the start of the last days , thats why it is known as the FIRST WORLD WAR and THE GREAT WAR . it was the start of the end. yes a turning point indeed .


on Monday morning, June 29, 1914, the newspapers carried a shocking headline: "HEIR TO AUSTRIA’S THRONE IS SLAIN." Perhaps that item of news seems very old to you now—almost like something out of ancient history. Nevertheless, it startled those who were alive at the time. And it set in motion a chain of events that still affects us .

What​
Hope for an End to War?

WORLD WAR I, fought from 1914 to 1918, was called the war to end all wars. But since then there have been over 200 wars, including the greatest to date—World War II.
Clearly, human efforts to abolish war have been a complete failure. Is it any wonder, then, that many say, "There will always be wars"? Is that what you believe?
The setting up of the United Nations in 1945 after World War II was intended to give war-weary humans a hope for a world without war. That hope is expressed in an inscription on the wall of the UN plaza in New York City, which reads: THEY SHALL BEAT THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES. AND THEIR SPEARS INTO PRUNING HOOKS: NATION SHALL NOT LIFT UP SWORD AGAINST NATION. NEITHER SHALL THEY LEARN WAR ANY MORE.
Sadly, the nations by their warmongering have made a mockery of this beautifully expressed hope for peace. Nevertheless, these words will be fulfilled! This is because they originated over 2,500 years ago with a Source higher than imperfect humans. They represent a promise made by Almighty God.—Isaiah 2:4.​
 
Mat 24:8
"All these [are] the beginning of sorrows."




.





Thomas

yes 1914 was the start of great sorrows, and it has got worse and worse it really was the start of the end .All these [are] the beginning of sorrows."
 
And furthermore:
Mat 24:36:
"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
This is the bigger issue ... you actually ignore the Word of Scripture by even trying to find some kind of date, by setting a timetable for God ... the teaching of Our Lord is clear — we must be ready for His coming at all times, for no man knows when that time will be — and you think you know, and I say that you are wrong.



Thomas
Jesus arriving in kingdom power and being given kingship in the heavenly kingdom is one thing, but Jesus coming to execute judgement is another thing . and as you rightly say no man knows the hour or day when Jesus will go into action to execute Judgement. i think more study is needed so you are not confused by Jesus COMING and his presence (PAROUSIA)
 
Jesus arriving in kingdom power and being given kingship in the heavenly kingdom is one thing, but Jesus coming to execute judgement is another thing . and as you rightly say no man knows the hour or day when Jesus will go into action to execute Judgement. i think more study is needed so you are not confused by Jesus COMING and his presence (PAROUSIA)
I think I'll stick with Jesus' own words "No one knows the moment of the coming, not even the Son, but only the Father.." (para)

In the mean time the Holy Spirit is here and has been here since the ascention. So, we have never been alone.

v/r

Q
 
I suggest your 'biblical students' have made errors due to a poor grasp of history.



Thomas
shall we see what some say about the 1914 date .


1914 the Year That Shocked the World

"The Great War of 1914-18 lies like a band of scorched earth dividing that time from ours. In wiping out so many lives . . . , in destroying beliefs, changing ideas, and leaving incurable wounds of disillusion, it created a physical as well as psychological gulf between two epochs."—From The Proud Tower—A Portrait of the World Before the War 1890–1914, by Barbara Tuchman.




THE first world war was by far the widest and most destructive human conflict up to that time. The second world war—really just a continuation of the first—was far worse. In these two wars, more than 25 million military men, besides civilians, were slaughtered.
 
In the mean time the Holy Spirit is here

v/r

Q
it certainly is , and it is working on those with insight and because of that true knowledge is now abundant

"And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."DANIEL 12;4


And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. Daniel 11;33


And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.DANIEL 12;9-10


And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.DANIEL 12;3



ITS ALL HAPPENING FOR THOSE WITH INSIGHT
:)understanding is now abundant and they know just where we are in the stream of time . but those with insight do not keep it to themselves it is abundantly made known .
 
Hi Mee —

shall we see what some say about the 1914 date .
1914 the Year That Shocked the World ... by Barbara Tuchman.

OK — Here's another one by the same author:
In A Distant Mirror, historian Barbara Tuchman reveals in harrowing detail a "tortured century" with parallels to our own. People in the fourteenth century were subjected to natural and man-made disasters, including the Hundred Years' War, the Crusades, insurrection, lawlessness, the Schism of the Church, massacres of Jewish people, and the Black Death, which claimed the lives of nearly half the population living between India and Iceland.

By her own account, that outstrips WWI — and renders the 14th century as a better example (even than my own 1618) as prophesied.

+++

THE first world war was by far the widest and most destructive human conflict up to that time.
Again, an emotive statement that needs qualification.

The second world war—really just a continuation of the first—was far worse. In these two wars, more than 25 million military men, besides civilians, were slaughtered.
So even by your own account, the WWII was far worse than WWI, in which case 1939 should be the set date.

Nor is claiming WWII as a continuation of WWI historically accurate. Although there was a perceived ill-treatment of Germany via the Treaty of Versailles (1919) which was a cause of much discontent, that had been sorted by the late 30s, by which time Hitler had occupied Alsace-Lorraine, annexed Austria and occupied the Sudetenland.

The reason why he got away with it was because many saw these actions as redressing prior unfair actions ... but no-one said, "OK, but that's your lot." So he assumed he could carry on, and set his eyes eastward, with Poland being the first step.

I am not criticising Tuchman, but there is a difference between popular and scholarly history, and the big one is popular history books tend to make lurid generalisations that scholarly historians would not make, and nor would Tuchman if she was addressing an audience of her peers.

So you've triple-confounded yourself now ... there are three dates that are better fits to prophecy than 1914 — 1337 (outbreak of the Hundred Years' War), 1618 or 1939 ... all you've got to do is revisit your figures, nothing new for the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm sure you'll be able to make em fit one of the above.

Thomas
 
Hi Mee —



OK — Here's another one by the same author:
In A Distant Mirror, historian Barbara Tuchman reveals in harrowing detail a "tortured century" with parallels to our own. People in the fourteenth century were subjected to natural and man-made disasters, including the Hundred Years' War, the Crusades, insurrection, lawlessness, the Schism of the Church, massacres of Jewish people, and the Black Death, which claimed the lives of nearly half the population living between India and Iceland.

By her own account, that outstrips WWI — and renders the 14th century as a better example (even than my own 1618) as prophesied.

+++


Again, an emotive statement that needs qualification.


So even by your own account, the WWII was far worse than WWI, in which case 1939 should be the set date.

Nor is claiming WWII as a continuation of WWI historically accurate. Although there was a perceived ill-treatment of Germany via the Treaty of Versailles (1919) which was a cause of much discontent, that had been sorted by the late 30s, by which time Hitler had occupied Alsace-Lorraine, annexed Austria and occupied the Sudetenland.

The reason why he got away with it was because many saw these actions as redressing prior unfair actions ... but no-one said, "OK, but that's your lot." So he assumed he could carry on, and set his eyes eastward, with Poland being the first step.

I am not criticising Tuchman, but there is a difference between popular and scholarly history, and the big one is popular history books tend to make lurid generalisations that scholarly historians would not make, and nor would Tuchman if she was addressing an audience of her peers.

So you've triple-confounded yourself now ... there are three dates that are better fits to prophecy than 1914 — 1337 (outbreak of the Hundred Years' War), 1618 or 1939 ... all you've got to do is revisit your figures, nothing new for the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm sure you'll be able to make em fit one of the above.

Thomas
remember 1914 is the START of the last days and that date is inline with bible prophecy and chronology . and its all happening since that date . many things point to that date . along with bible prophecy and chronology. :)

When the Gentile Times ended, Jehovah was to give the power to rule to the One "who has the legal right," Jesus Christ. Therefore, 1914 would mark the time when Christ began to rule as King in God’s heavenly Kingdom, and since his rulership extends down to this day, it touches you and me .
 
Hi Mee —




So even by your own account, the WWII was far worse than WWI, in which case 1939 should be the set date.



Thomas



1914 historic Shakeup"

An editorial in the German newspaper Die Welt commented on the historical importance of the date August 1, 1944. In response, a reader complained to the paper that the editorial ignored a more significant date—August 1, 1914. On that date a "historic shakeup of world proportions began, not only affecting Germany but changing Europe and the whole world," according to the reader. "The war brought us tremendous losses and ended with the ‘treaty’ of Versailles, which was the bud from which the second world war later sprouted. The development of Soviet Russia, superpower U.S.A., the dethronement of Europe, the awakening of the Third World, all these things were initiated by the first world war. There are few dates of greater importance than that fatal August 1, 1914!"
 
the START of the last days and that date is inline with bible prophecy and chronology . and its all happening since that date . many things point to that date . along with bible prophecy and chronology. :)

You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone!
 
You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone!



a spiritual paradise now , and then on into a paradise earth .:) matthew 5;5
 
i'll have a paradise burger, paradise fries, and a paradise coke.



I will have good healthy spiritual food it is good for me matthew 24;45-47.

:)
i dont like rubbish food it dulls the mind and body
 
I will have good healthy spiritual food it is good for me matthew 24;45-47.

:)
i dont like rubbish food it dulls the mind and body
So can wine, but that doesn't seem to bother you. :eek:
 
i'll have a paradise burger, paradise fries, and a paradise coke.

I'll have some spiritual alcohol and get spiritually drunk.

I'll turn on the spiritual computer and play some spiritual computer games.

Then I'll turn on the spiritual television set and watch some spiritual movies.

I'll go spiritually mad, insane and have spiritual orgies.

I will go to my spiritual bed, sleep spiritually and then have a spiritual awakening.

In the spiritual dawn, morning of the next day, I will have a spiritual breakfast where I eat spiritual eggs and bacon. I will be ready spiritually for the challenges in the day ahead.

:)
 
There are few dates of greater importance than that fatal August 1, 1914!"

OK. A date of greater importance is 1815. If Wellington had not beaten Napoleon, then Europe would be a Republic, and WWI would never have happened.

So 1414 depends on 1815 ...
and 1815 depends on ...
and your knee-bone is joined ... altogether now!

I go with Scripture:
1 John 2:18
"Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour."

We have been in the end times for 2,000 years, every hour is the last hour...

Thomas
 
So can wine, but that doesn't seem to bother you. :eek:
no it doesnt bother me at all :)

"Wine is a ridiculer, intoxicating liquor is boisterous, and everyone going astray by it is not wise."—PROVERBS 20:1.


going astray with intoxicating liquor is not wise .


so it goes with rubbish food , but the difference with food is, it takes longer to show up sometimes .
and before a person is aware it has efected his whole mind and thinking. and he thinks he is on the right path but he is way along the wrong one. and it can be a long journey to find that right path and put himself in the right direction . because the opposers(of the right way) put allsorts of things in the way to try to confuse him . and lead him away from the right path . so its best to stay with what the bible teaches,



Go, eat your food with rejoicing and drink your wine with a good heart, because already the [true] God has found pleasure in your works ECCLESIASTES 9;7:)
 
I go with Scripture:
1 John 2:18
"Little children, it is the last hour: and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour."

We have been in the end times for 2,000 years, every hour is the last hour...

Thomas
VERY TRUE , and way back in the early christian congregations, it started to appear , and it appeared even among themselves . those in opposition have been around for centuries. yes their are MANY antichrists .

Jesus warned his followers that the world in general would hate them. He said: "People will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many."—Matthew 24:9, 11.



Because Jesus’ disciples are persecuted "on account of [Jesus’] name," the persecutors are clearly antichrist, against Christ.

The "false prophets," some of whom were once Christians, are also in that category. (2 John 7)

These "many antichrists," wrote John, "went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us."—1 John 2:18, 19.


The words of both Jesus and John plainly indicate that the antichrist is not a single person but is made up of many individual antichrists. Moreover, because they are false prophets, one of their main objectives is religious deception.​
 
Back
Top