Questions on the Garden of Eden, human chauvanism

[Bellator]

This is mostly directed a christians, since I am not very familiar with what Islam and Judaism have to say about these issues, but feedback from any of the above would be nice.

In the story of the garden of Eden, God forbids Adam and eve from eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, saying that they will surely die if they do. The serpent then tempts eve and says they can be like God by knowing good and evil if they eat the fruit, and that they will not surely die. They proceed to eat the fruit condemning the human race to sin for all time.

There seems to be something wrong with this story. Apparently God wanted Adam and Eve to live as mindless drones and not gain knowledge from the tree. And wasn't the serpent right about the fact that they would not die if they ate the fruit? Did God lie, or was it some strange metaphor that if they sinned they would be dead to him?

On a related note, here is an intersting passage (taken from NIV version):
genisis 26-30
" 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so."


This passage illustrates the human chauvanism and anti-environmentalism present in the bible. It is saying humans own the whole earth and alll the creatures in it. Okay, to be fair its not nessecarily anti-environmentalist. I can already hear people refuting by saying that we should be good stewards of the earth. I am not aware, however, of any passage in the Bible (or Torah or Quran) which says this. This notion of ownership can and certainly has led to disrespect for the earth.

Even if it did say that we should be good stewards of the land, itsn't it still arrogant to think of ourselves as superior to everything else on earth? Granted, the evidence suggests that humans are the most intelligent species known, but better? The crowning jewel of God's creation? It seens religion in the western world has always supported the notion that we are the center of the universe. It was after all the church which created the notion of a geocentric universe.

what do you think?

 

[Dream]

What do Christians think? We are currently talking about it in the Marriage section of the Christianity forum.

Since we are in the Abrahamic section, I'd like to mention that Bananabrain once posted "this is the hardest thing to understand in the whole of Torah." In the same post, he also said " basically, the point to focus on is this: what is being describe is the process by which we became human. by human i mean human as we would understand it - more than an animal, more than an angel, less than Divine but nonetheless made in the Divine Image." He posted that in the following thread: http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/garden-of-eden-2328.html#post24526

Some other related threads:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/did-moses-write-the-frist-8395.html#post130480
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/g-d-breathes-life-into-7579.html#post115326
http://www.comparative-religion.com...tudying-jewish-scriptures-4797.html#post56456
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/egalitarianism-in-judaism-and-the-5605.html#post69573

 

[LeoSalinas22]

hello mr enterprise

This is mostly directed a christians, since I am not very familiar with what Islam and Judaism have to say about these issues, but feedback from any of the above would be nice.

first and foremost, i am not christian, nor jewish nor muslim. i don't know what the heck i am. just someone looking for answers. but above all, looking for justice. anyways, here we go.

In the story of the garden of Eden, God forbids Adam and eve from eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, saying that they will surely die if they do. The serpent then tempts eve and says they can be like God by knowing good and evil if they eat the fruit, and that they will not surely die. They proceed to eat the fruit condemning the human race to sin for all time.

everything was correct up until the part of condemning the sons of man. aren't you glad they ate the fruit. with out it, we would be mindless drones, no? instead, we are like God, knowing what is right and what is wrong. don't be so negative, my friend.

And wasn't the serpent right about the fact that they would not die if they ate the fruit?

i have a theory on this, but i get the feeling you read it already on the "marriage" thread on the christianity forum. if you haven't, feel free to look up my post there. if not, ask me about it and i'll delve further into it with you.

Did God lie, or was it some strange metaphor that if they sinned they would be dead to him?

to me He didn't lie at all. again, it depends on your outlook on life. to me, i would rather be poor than rich. in pain than in pleasure. sad instead of happy. no i am not a sadomassochist! just kidding. but seriously, i would rather be a pessimist than an optimist. this is just me, though. it is true that we die. but it is the only way we'll know how to cherish the existence He gave us. imagine if our skin was as tough as a rhino. we would be impervious to pain. how would we learn to be more grateful or careful for that matter? or imagine if we had wings to fly. each time there was a problem, we would simply just fly away and not face our problems. dying to me is the only way we'll learn to be better people. if we didn't die, then what would be the point of living? hope i haven't confused you.

This notion of ownership can and certainly has led to disrespect for the earth.

Even if it did say that we should be good stewards of the land, itsn't it still arrogant to think of ourselves as superior to everything else on earth?

true. we are raping the earth when instead we should be like obedient children to their mother. after all, she provides us with nourishment, like a babe suckling a mothers breast. in reality, we are at her mercy. hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, famines etc. the majority of us are proud and think this vice versa, but not all of us are so.

Granted, the evidence suggests that humans are the most intelligent species known, but better? The crowning jewel of God's creation?

i'm not sure if you would agree with me, but as i mentioned in the beginning, the sons of man know what is right and wrong. animals don't. we have the ability to choose to give life, or take it. to love or hate. to make war or to make peace. art or science. animals don't have these traits. sure monkeys or elephants have been known to make paintings. or sign language for the primates? what else? there is a reason why the sons of man are like this and animals aren't.

It seens religion in the western world has always supported the notion that we are the center of the universe. It was after all the church which created the notion of a geocentric universe.

first, there is a big difference between being religious and being spiritual. big difference, my friend. second, don't judge God because of the lies of the sons of man. we created these lies. not Him. anyways these are my thoughts. thank you for reading them.

 

[Dream]

In Christianity, the question sometimes arises: "Is the story literal or figurative?" Well it is at least figurative, and it might be miraculously literal or not. Take into consideration that Genesis 3:15 is taken to be a prophecy by all Abrahamic faiths, universally. How could we know that this was a prophecy if the story were strictly literal? We could not. The only way to understand the story is through its figures. You mentioned that lie of the serpent which appeared to come true -- Its a very short story so easily memorized, so why does the author purposely place such an obvious idiosynchrasy into such a charming little story about a boy and a girl and their pet snake? There is likely a message surrounding that lie which will enrich the whole story for you once you have pursued it. The things in the story that stand out are meant to be scrutinized and studied closely, so they are purposely difficult to understand.

 

[Thomas]

This is mostly directed a christians ...

OK. I'm Catholic.

In the story of the garden of Eden, God forbids Adam and eve from eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, saying that they will surely die if they do.

Yes.

The serpent then tempts eve and says they can be like God by knowing good and evil if they eat the fruit, and that they will not surely die.

A bit more than that, the serpent tempts with the notion they can be 'as' gods ... a small, but nevertheless important distinction:
"your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:5)

They proceed to eat the fruit condemning the human race to sin for all time.

So what have they actually done? Well, they've defied God, for a start, and next:
"And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons." (3:7)
So the immediate result was the realisation of 'nakedness' — which bothered them now, but not before, and they felt shame, and so hid themselves, from each other and from God. So we can see the immediately that the serpent was lying, and the outcome was not good ... without God even being present.

I could wax on about the eye being opened is the external gaze, whereas the eye with which they saw before was the eye of the soul, which sees the heart and essence of all things ... that eye was shut.

There seems to be something wrong with this story. Apparently God wanted Adam and Eve to live as mindless drones and not gain knowledge from the tree.

Not at all. It was a specific kind of knowledge[/k] He warned them of, which is the knowledge of death. Basically He said "You can have knowledge of most anything that takes your fancy, but don't go after that kind of knowledge, because it is poisonous to your nature."

And wasn't the serpent right about the fact that they would not die if they ate the fruit?

No he wasn't, was he? We're not immortal, are we?

Did God lie, or was it some strange metaphor that if they sinned they would be dead to him?

No, straight forward. He did not say 'drop dead on the spot' ... He said die ... and man dies.

On a related note ... This passage illustrates the human chauvanism and anti-environmentalism present in the bible.

It does if you read it from a post-modern perspective, but the Bible was not written with that in mind, so the requirement is upon us to try and figure out what the scribe meant, not assume that what it means to me, is what it meant to him ...

It is saying humans own the whole earth and alll the creatures in it.

Not quite. It says God brought forward "all the beasts of the earth ... to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name" this is an honour for Adam, and a delight to God, who has created Adam as the pinnacle of his creation. Gen 2:15 says "And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it" which is, the environoment and the ecology.

Okay, to be fair its not nessecarily anti-environmentalist. I can already hear people refuting by saying that we should be good stewards of the earth. I am not aware, however, of any passage in the Bible (or Torah or Quran) which says this. This notion of ownership can and certainly has led to disrespect for the earth.

2:15 "And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise of pleasure, to dress it, and to keep it" which is, the environoment and the ecology.

Also 'dominion' is not itself a bad term. Kings and Emperors have dominion, and the good ones sought the good and the benefit of all under their sway ... so it's rather a case of pointing out where the fault lies ... with man, not God.

Even if it did say that we should be good stewards of the land, itsn't it still arrogant to think of ourselves as superior to everything else on earth?

Again, superior is your term. What the bible means is that man should use his gifts and abilities for the benefit of all.

Granted, the evidence suggests that humans are the most intelligent species known, but better?

Again, nowhere says 'better' ... rather, to those who are given more, more is expected.

The crowning jewel of God's creation?

Metaphysically, yes.

It seens religion in the western world has always supported the notion that we are the center of the universe.

No, that's way too generalised. Religion in the Abrahamic Tradition speaks of a direct and unmediated dialogue with the Divine — from the Center to the center, as it were, as each time one says "I" one speaks of a center — thus the relationship has always been symbolised as a vertical relation.

It was after all the church which created the notion of a geocentric universe.

No, it was the Greeks. The geocentrism of Aristotle became the astronomical model until Copernicus suggested a heliocentric model ... which the Church greeted with enthusiasm and support.

Thomas

 

[path_of_one]

I ditto Thomas. Genesis does not, on its own, present a model of anti-environmentalism. In fact, it is Genesis (in part) that the Amish refer to in their environmentally-friendly small and local-scale farming communities and practices.

Genesis can either be interpreted as saying that the earth was created for us and it's ours for the taking, or that we were created for the earth and our job is to tend it as stewards. It's up to people how they see it and what they justify. To me, it is pretty clear that the earth is God's, not ours, and we were created to act as stewards.

Notably, God created the animals with the possibility of finding a suitable partner for Adam, but none quite right for Adam was found. Then He created Eve. I think that's fascinating. We were originally vegetarians and the animals were created as companions, not as resources.

Overall, I think it is just how we see the text. It isn't blatantly pro-environmentalism the way that many Pagan myths are, but it isn't blatantly anti-environmentalism either.

As for sin and the serpent, at this time I have no comments. I don't think it was a literal talking serpent and my jury is out on whether God always meant for people to come to that knowledge or not. As I've said elsewhere, if I read it all literally, it makes me wonder about God. Knowing people were what He created them to be, and the weaknesses they had, but then putting stuff around that was tempting and dangerous doesn't sound like Paradise to me. Sounds like a false paradise. And then, when they didn't know good from evil, to then judge them based on doing wrong... doesn't seem right either. Without knowing good from evil, how then can they be held accountable for disobedience? These are the questions I run into when I try to interpret Genesis in the conservative Christian way. When I see it as a metaphor for the origins of the universe, earth, and humanity, and a statement about humans' relationship with God, each other, and the earth then I can process it without the contradictions.

 

[Bishadi]

Star ship,

you are thinking and it is good.

everything was correct up until the part of condemning the sons of man. aren't you glad they ate the fruit. with out it, we would be mindless drones, no? instead, we are like God, knowing what is right and what is wrong.

it seems that the story of A&E is one of the parables of the bible.

It was the day that consciousness was born.

we became aware of good and bad

as well the self (the fig leaf covering/ Genesis) Or the garmets given by Allah in the Quran...........

the point is, the day of the "apple story' was a day that 'choice' was born....

it was one of the most important stories in theological literature in which is has been abused, used and the causation of why women are second to man (an ignorance of the religious teachings, as no man alive would exist without the better half of procreation)

should mankind be the stewarts? YES and they are, as well will be ever after.

See the Hopi Indians and find, they are the 'keepers of the land'

note where and how they are located in the midwest....... and then look up the 'lake of reflections' or blue lake in Taos.........

they are now the 'last' but will be the 'first' ..... and that land behind the pueblo is an important location

 

[Dogbrain]

There seems to be something wrong with this story. Apparently God wanted Adam and Eve to live as mindless drones and not gain knowledge from the tree.

Or not gain knowledge from the tree at that particular time. There are many forms of knowledge that I have denied to my children until I, as a parent, feel the time is right for them to finally learn it. I don't try to teach my two-year-old to drive, no matter how many times he tries to climb into my seat in the van instead of his own.

And wasn't the serpent right about the fact that they would not die if they ate the fruit?

Does Adam still live, or has he died? The serpent was wrong. They died. Their spirits were cut off from God at the point they disobeyed Him--their first, spiritual, death. Then their spirits and bodies split from each other later--their second, bodily, death.

This is reversed by the Great Physician, Christ, to returns our spirits to God, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life.

It is saying humans own the whole earth and alll the creatures in it.

No, it does not. It says that humans are to rule the whole earth and all the creatures in it. God still owns the earth. Where in there can you find the command to "despoil" or "plunder". There is a difference between "subdue" and "despoil".

Even if it did say that we should be good stewards of the land, itsn't it still arrogant to think of ourselves as superior to everything else on earth?

So why did God incarnate as a human instead of a talking dog?

It was after all the church which created the notion of a geocentric universe.

I'd like to see some proof of this claim. A geocentric model was favored by ancient Greeks such as Anaximander, Aristotle and Ptolemy. Ancient China had a similar model of the universe. Are you saying that "the church" travelled back in time to before its foundation to dictate geocentrism to these ancients?

 

[taijasi]

Actually, metaphysically we are far from the "crowing jewels" of God's creation. One or two jewels may have become shifted somewhere over the past few million years, but humanity was never there to begin with.

Materially speaking, we do not observe the higher kingdoms that accompany the planet with us, because these do not express through dense (flesh & blood) bodies ... for the most part. Please take into consideration what the Zohar has to say on this point:

"The Breath becomes a stone; the stone, a plant; the plant, an animal; the animal, a man; the man, a spirit; and the spirit, a god."
​

Adam & Eve of course, can be understood in a metaphysical role and as referring to one or more of several earlier phases of humanity's development upon the planet, since the Genesis narratives are symbolic ... not literal accounts of either Cosmological, Planetary/Solar, or even individual human origin.

 

[Dogbrain]

Actually, metaphysically we are far from the "crowing jewels" of God's creation. ... Please take into consideration what the Zohar has to say on this point:

I do not need to consider the Zohar, as it is a work that my own Church would most likely reject.

 

[taijasi]

I do not need to consider the Zohar, as it is a work that my own Church would most likely reject.

I hope you decide to think for yourself one day Dogbrain. It's a most ... rewarding practice.

 

[seattlegal]

Revelation 11:18 talks about destroying those who destroy the earth.

 

[Dogbrain]

I hope you decide to think for yourself one day Dogbrain. It's a most ... rewarding practice.

I hope you decide to stop being an asswipe and spewing out personal insults to people who dare to disagree with your dogmas.

 

[taijasi]

I hope you decide to stop being an asswipe and spewing out personal insults to people who dare to disagree with your dogmas.

Perhaps if you weren't so smug yourself, you'd learn how to take other viewpoints in stride ... especially if you're so confident that your own views are correct.


Ever seen the little bumper-sticker that says Co-Exist? Might be worth contemplating ... right before you decide to call someone an "ass-wipe" next time.

"I think it was true it was people like you that crucified Christ
I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced"
-- Black Sabbath, `After Forever'​

It's a forum, buddy ... learn to get along. Your precious church doctrine wouldn't exist without the Zohar, and without the dozens of other Gospels that were unfortunately excised from the early official canons. You don't have to like this fact, you don't have to read the Zohar ... or anything else that rubs you wrong. But fix your attitude. Because brother, it really stinks.​

Namaskar,​

andrew​

 

[Dogbrain]

Perhaps if you weren't so smug yourself, you'd learn how to take other viewpoints in stride

Yes, when I call you out on hurling personal insults and give you a little of YOUR OWN medicine, you can't take it, can you? You have to snide, whine, and indulge in more ad hominem.

YOU are the one who decided to claim in public that I don't think for myself. YOU are the one who decided to stoop to personal insults. I'm just playing the game YOU picked. If you act like an asswipe, I'll call you out as an asswipe.

You can adore the Zohar or any other book you like, doesn't bother me. But you are hiding behind a thin veneer of sophistication in order to toss out personal insults to anyone who dares disagree with you if they don't have what YOU deem to be the "right" reasons to disagree.

Like it or not, this is a forum, and if you insult people, some of them will respond as you deserve.

 

[wil]

Like it or not, this is a forum, and if you insult people, some of them will respond as you deserve.

Good morning DB and Andrew and all. The site is about discussion. If it gets down to namecalling and snide remarks we lose discussion.

If we have to go tit for tat like my kids, he started it, no she did, she hit me first, he said...it seems we lost our ability for words.

We have differing viewpoints SURPRISE. Could you imagine a garden with only one type of plant, a planet with only one type of tree, revel in our differences and explore the forest.

Peace my brothers, with such obvious wordsmithery and intelligence it is hard to believe we have to sound like the playground.

 

[Dogbrain]

Good morning DB and Andrew and all. The site is about discussion. If it gets down to namecalling and snide remarks we lose discussion.

So, then it's not acceptable to tell someone that he doesn't think for himself?

 

[wil]

So, then it's not acceptable to tell someone that he doesn't think for himself?

I thought I directed my comments at all, including myself. I get lost in the moment at times, ask most anyone here.

But I must tell you, I admire and attempt to emulate those that stay above the fray, stick to the discussion and avoid getting sucked into the namecalling.

What did your wife do the last time you beat her?

If the statement said has nothing to do with you, why respond?

 

[seattlegal]

If we have to go tit for tat like my kids, he started it, no she did, she hit me first, he said...it seems we lost our ability for words.

Sounds like Adam and Eve.

We have differing viewpoints SURPRISE. Could you imagine a garden with only one type of plant, a planet with only one type of tree, revel in our differences and explore the forest.

Peace my brothers, with such obvious wordsmithery and intelligence it is hard to believe we have to sound like the playground.

No wonder Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden.

 

[taijasi]

Sounds like Adam and Eve.

No wonder Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden.

Thank Goodness every Master has one ... and thank Goodness for the many Paths of approach.