The Resurrection: A Re-evaluation

[Dondi]

Listening to a Christian program on TV called Amazing Facts, the speaker, Doug Batchelor, was talking about the state of man at death. And I was struck by the notion that when a man dies, according to him, that the soul dies with the body, that there is no more consciousness, no memory, no thoughts, no awareness. He used a couple of passages to support this view:

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." - Psalm 146:4

"Their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." - Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10

So Mr. Batchelor explains that every person that has ever died is still dead. That there is no separation of the soul or spirit that goes up to heaven. Or hell for that matter. And of course, I thought this view was problematic on several fronts. One of which is the passage where Paul says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." - II Cor. 5:8

But he counters by saying that for us in the grave, since we have no consciousness, that the passage of time while we are dead will seem like a twinkling of an eye, when the last trump is sounded and all that are dead rise up, and in doing so the body is raise along with the soul (the soul is given as a literal breath). So for example, while it may actually be 2000 years since the Apostle Paul died, and he is still in the grave, it will only seem like a second since he died, for he would have no passage of time. It is the same phenomena that we experience when we lay down to a dreamless sleep only to wake up in the morning with no sense of time.

This way, everyone will be resurrected simultanously to judgement, those in the first stage, or first resurrection, to life, then after 1000 years, the second group rises to eternal damnation (Rev. 20).

Now I know this sounds a heck of a lot like 'soul sleep', and JWs seem to have the market on it, but in a way it kinda makes sense as far judgement is concerned.

Batchelor gets a bit more into it in this article: The Truth About Death

What are you thoughts about this?

 

[Dream]

I agree with that point of view. It does raise some interesting questions for me:

1. Where are Enoch and Elijah?
2. Why did Steven see a vision of heaven at his death
3. How did Samuel appear to Saul?
4. How did Moses & Elijah appear on the mountain?

It answers many other questions, though.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

dang it dondi? you been reading my mind or what? your post is almost exactly how i have been explaining the Ressurection to my boy. thanks for that.

dream, i have some answers and questions for you.

Where are Enoch and Elijah?

this may seem very far out way of thinking. to me, they are like the angels of heaven. they can transform in to flesh and spirit at will. go into space or earth whenever they want. at this time, they are literally in heaven, waiting the appointed time to return. this brings me to my question, wasn't it you that said that elijah had died when the chariots of fire came for him? unless i misunderstood or maybe it was someone else who said it? and who the heck are the two witnesses in revelation? so many questions. but plenty of frustration if you ask me.

Why did Steven see a vision of heaven at his death?

i think he saw the future revealed to him by God. as normally what happens to a prophet. that's what i think.

How did Samuel appear to Saul?

though i am not a jw, i have to agree with how they explain this. evil spirits tend to take the form of whomever they want. God does these things to test us sometimes. it is either that or....

How did Moses & Elijah appear on the mountain?

i am of the mind that they can travel time. just as i think the angels in the TANACH probably can. so this is the other answer that i have for how samuel appears to saul. angels mean messengers, right? so they can literally travel from the future to deliver these messages. it is the only explanation i have that makes any sense to me. if there is another explanation, PLEASE let me know. i have been struggling with the very same questions you have posed on here, dream. but if i am ignored, that is also fine, i don't blame anyone for ignoring me. my mentality is just too extreme when it comes to these sort of things.

anyhow, thanks for putting up with me.

 

[Dream]

Thanks for those points! Opinion deserves opinion, so I'm going to really cut loose for a second and throw some ideas at you. Cut me some slack here for being so courageous and don't jump on my back.

Fortunately the above are the kinds of questions that can afford to simmer for a while. Elijah ascended vertically in fire, which is something he has in common with a certain angel in the story of Sampson. I think Jacob's vision of stairs is related. Moses was buried by God on a high mountain, which is directionally the same thing as a lot of stairs. So all of these were described as ascending either at the point of death or else instead of dying. The angels on Jacob's stairs both ascend and descend. He that ascends stairs may also descend them, no? It is possible that these ascensions are symbolically interpreted, representing the prophetic impact of the person's life upon the rest of us. It could also mean that Elijah and Enoch are, as you say, angels. They are elsewhere called angels, and they may be part of that group styled a 'Cloud of witnesses' in Hebrews 12:1. Whether ascension is symbolic or not, it could represent the long term impact of the prophet's life, which is similar to your time travel idea. Also, I remember Elisha requesting a double portion of Elijah's spirit and also someone mentioning that Abel's blood still speaks.

Keeping in mind that all of Revelation is transmitted by symbols(Rev 1:1), the two witnesses probably are a reference to Deuteronomy 17:6, the instructions concerning due process for a murderer. In it we learn that death is only justifiable by the mouths of two (or three) witnesses. Never by just one. This is important because Revelation repeatedly refers to the death of an enemy and witness, but two separate witnesses are required to convict it before God's throne. Probably this passage about the 'Two witnesses' refers directly to the judgment in Daniel 7:26 against a beast who constantly harasses the saints. It is up to us to figure out who are the two witnesses required to condemn that beast and what exactly it is that will be condemned forever. The beast certainly is not just one ecclesiastical body and not just a group created after the time of Jesus, but something else much bigger. It is something that has to do with the reason we were all created. Martin Luther fired his shots short when he decided it must be the Catholic church. Despite whatever the Catholic church has done, it is still to insignificant, too piss-ant small to be called the 'Accuser of the brethren'. Casting down that church would be a relatively easy task. Against Luther's opinion, I recall someone saying that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers -- against the rulers of darkness of this age. Here is another passage in which the witnesses appear:

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The witnesses are them that testify against the accuser of the saints. Some things that can be observed from the above two verses: 1. casting down the accuser was not a simple task because it required witnesses 2. the power of Christ was involved in the work 3. the 'word of their testimony' is related to 'not loving their own lives', possibly the same thing. 4. the casting down of the accuser is very important

 

[17th Angel]

Hope you're ready for Mee I am sure he'll have much to say on this topic....

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Leo,

thank you for the post.

i am of the mind that they can travel time. just as i think the angels in the TANACH probably can. so this is the other answer that i have for how samuel appears to saul. angels mean messengers, right? so they can literally travel from the future to deliver these messages. it is the only explanation i have that makes any sense to me.

the idea of time traveling makes sense to you?!


metta,

~v

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Those that are hidden in Christ are alive in Christ, and go from death to life for the Son of God has defeated death for us and we are alive in him. The second these saints die, is the same time they are spiritually with the Lord. It isn't until the resurrection, that they receive new transformed bodies. Those that did not receive Christ as their personal saviour are dead, and their resurrection is for their judgement.

 

[path_of_one]

I have to say that while it isn't necessarily Biblical, the overwhelming number of NDE accounts I've read or outright personally witnessed while working in hospice just doesn't jive with soul sleep to me. I'd have to ignore mountains of evidence of something else. The NDE accounts are overwhelming and include people who have been dead for 10+ minutes, in accounts I myself have heard. On top of that, you have oodles of people (mostly young children) from all over the world who have memories from a young age of another life in the past. What do we make of that?

I know we could just dismiss everyone outright and say well, this other thing makes sense, so evidence can just be swept under the rug... but if it isn't the human experience, what's going on? Personally, I do not believe that God just gives us things like dinosaur bones or NDEs to allow our souls to be won over to Satan. I just don't think God is deceptive or cruel this way. I think He's on our side and wants us to come to Him, to know Him, and to be saved. So what's up with all the NDEs and whatnot if soul sleep is correct?

I've heard some *very* detailed NDE stories from people who should be dead and now aren't (were healed miraculously). And I have seen dying people meet their loved ones who went before. Personally, I feel uncomfortable with dismissing their experiences outright and telling them it is all some sort of farce. I mean, it's kind of like telling a Christian that their personal experience of Jesus is all in their head. Might be true, but doesn't seem very wise or open-minded to just dismiss it.

And there are textual contradictions, like Jesus telling the guy on the cross next to Him that "today you will be with me in Paradise." Yes, mee, I know your version of the Bible changes the grammar and argues that changes the meaning. But that is just not the gist of what I'm getting from Jesus there...

I don't have any real answer... maybe it's different for all of us.

 

[Quahom1]

Listening to a Christian program on TV called Amazing Facts, the speaker, Doug Batchelor, was talking about the state of man at death. And I was struck by the notion that when a man dies, according to him, that the soul dies with the body, that there is no more consciousness, no memory, no thoughts, no awareness. He used a couple of passages to support this view:

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." - Psalm 146:4

"Their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." - Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10

So Mr. Batchelor explains that every person that has ever died is still dead. That there is no separation of the soul or spirit that goes up to heaven. Or hell for that matter. And of course, I thought this view was problematic on several fronts. One of which is the passage where Paul says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." - II Cor. 5:8

But he counters by saying that for us in the grave, since we have no consciousness, that the passage of time while we are dead will seem like a twinkling of an eye, when the last trump is sounded and all that are dead rise up, and in doing so the body is raise along with the soul (the soul is given as a literal breath). So for example, while it may actually be 2000 years since the Apostle Paul died, and he is still in the grave, it will only seem like a second since he died, for he would have no passage of time. It is the same phenomena that we experience when we lay down to a dreamless sleep only to wake up in the morning with no sense of time.

This way, everyone will be resurrected simultanously to judgement, those in the first stage, or first resurrection, to life, then after 1000 years, the second group rises to eternal damnation (Rev. 20).

Now I know this sounds a heck of a lot like 'soul sleep', and JWs seem to have the market on it, but in a way it kinda makes sense as far judgement is concerned.

Batchelor gets a bit more into it in this article: The Truth About Death

What are you thoughts about this?

Jesus told the thief he would be with him that very day, in paradise...I think after Jesus' sacrifice, the rules were re-written.

Then again, time is a construct for man, and is relative. But I seriously doubt that the spirit of man remains with his bones. If that were the case, then his spirit would be spread all over the earth with the critters that pick his bones...kinda would make for a rough sleep, don't you think?

 

[earl]

I have to say that while it isn't necessarily Biblical, the overwhelming number of NDE accounts I've read or outright personally witnessed while working in hospice just doesn't jive with soul sleep to me. I'd have to ignore mountains of evidence of something else. The NDE accounts are overwhelming and include people who have been dead for 10+ minutes, in accounts I myself have heard. On top of that, you have oodles of people (mostly young children) from all over the world who have memories from a young age of another life in the past. What do we make of that?

I know we could just dismiss everyone outright and say well, this other thing makes sense, so evidence can just be swept under the rug... but if it isn't the human experience, what's going on? Personally, I do not believe that God just gives us things like dinosaur bones or NDEs to allow our souls to be won over to Satan. I just don't think God is deceptive or cruel this way. I think He's on our side and wants us to come to Him, to know Him, and to be saved. So what's up with all the NDEs and whatnot if soul sleep is correct?

I've heard some *very* detailed NDE stories from people who should be dead and now aren't (were healed miraculously). And I have seen dying people meet their loved ones who went before. Personally, I feel uncomfortable with dismissing their experiences outright and telling them it is all some sort of farce. I mean, it's kind of like telling a Christian that their personal experience of Jesus is all in their head. Might be true, but doesn't seem very wise or open-minded to just dismiss it.

And there are textual contradictions, like Jesus telling the guy on the cross next to Him that "today you will be with me in Paradise." Yes, mee, I know your version of the Bible changes the grammar and argues that changes the meaning. But that is just not the gist of what I'm getting from Jesus there...

I don't have any real answer... maybe it's different for all of us.

Path, needless to say, I'd say you are so so right, not only with the voluminous NDE literature which cannot be ignored but even as I had recently again posted about the possibility we have been and still are in direct contact with those who have moved on after death (that whole instrumental trancommunication thing). Why would one want to ignore vast human experience of a consistent nature to uphold religious dogma? Earl

 

[Quahom1]

Path, needless to say, I'd say you are so so right, not only with the voluminous NDE literature which cannot be ignored but even as I had recently again posted about the possibility we have been and still are in direct contact with those who have moved on after death (that whole instrumental trancommunication thing). Why would one want to ignore vast human experience of a consistent nature to uphold religious dogma? Earl

Not so sure about the "direct contact thingy". There is that now we see things darkly then we will see clearly point that Christ made. To me that means the things on earth are rather small, in the larger order of things, and our loved ones are very busy in their new environs...

Ours might look back over their shoulders once in awhile, but the primary thought I believe is "they'll figure it out hehehe...".

just a thought.

v/r

Q

 

[Dream]

Those that are hidden in Christ are alive in Christ, and go from death to life for the Son of God has defeated death for us and we are alive in him. The second these saints die, is the same time they are spiritually with the Lord. It isn't until the resurrection, that they receive new transformed bodies. Those that did not receive Christ as their personal saviour are dead, and their resurrection is for their judgement.

Interesting point. Here is a source text:

11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Would you mind expanding upon some of the ideas in there? Clearly it said some of these 'obtained a good report'. Perhaps it means they will not be judged. What about the cloud of witnesses? I had thought it was talking about the witness that the saints gave to us through the manner in which they lived and died. So taking it that way I could say that that the good report is their witness to us. Why is it important for the saints not to sleep? If they do sleep, what problems does it present?

 

[earl]

Perhaps "seeing through a glass darkly" is after all a fine way to describe the view from "this side-" the side of incarnation. Perhaps the view is inevitably murkier in the body than it might be with a tad lighter load. Being dead might not make you automatically wiser but might give you a different perspective on matters. Maybe some of those "New Age" notions aren't so far off the mark relative to different planes of existence, effects on consciousness, "earth plane denseness," etc. afterall. Earl

 

[Quahom1]

Perhaps "seeing through a glass darkly" is after all a fine way to describe the view from "this side-" the side of incarnation. Perhaps the view is inevitably murkier in the body than it might be with a tad lighter load. Being dead might not make you automatically wiser but might give you a different perspective on matters. Maybe some of those "New Age" notions aren't so far off the mark relative to different planes of existence, effects on consciousness, "earth plane denseness," etc. afterall. Earl

Agreed. The problem is when man stops looking toward God and now, and obsesses with self and the here after, or worse, discards God and thinks he himself controls the part of life after this chapter in it...

 

[Dream]

The NDE accounts are overwhelming and include people who have been dead for 10+ minutes, in accounts I myself have heard. On top of that, you have oodles of people (mostly young children) from all over the world who have memories from a young age of another life in the past. What do we make of that?

Some reasons it doesn't ring my bell is that I had childhood friends who pretended to have supernatural experiences to please their parents or church officials or just for fun. I think that's what happened at the Salem witch trials as well. As for books about life after death: There are numerous books released over the years in which people describe horrible hell, fiery torments and burning sulfur during their 10 minutes of death. They say they were permitted to come back so they could warn us, but they are discredited by the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. It was Jesus himself who told us in the parable that people don't get sent back to warn us.

Out of body experiences and previous lives? Its a fact that time distortion and lightening creativity are powers of the human subconscious. Conditioned to a certain level of hypnosis, a subject can be told 'You just went on a two week vacation', and the subject will instantaneously invent an entire two weeks trip, complete with details. They can relate every detail as if it they had really been gone for two weeks. What is a child under hypnosis going to say if they are told "Go back to the time before you were born?"

Finally, there's just too much hype. People love hype. If people have past lives -- that is a wonderful thing! There's no way to prove that thing to me, because the hype-monsters already beat you to my door and ate me before you could save me from them. Hype explaineth all.

 

[mee]

Hope you're ready for Mee I am sure he'll have much to say on this topic....

sure will .



and as always it will be inline with what the bible REALLY teaches.



and Jesus himself when Lazurus died , said he was asleep he likened death to sleep.


Lazarus became gravely ill. Promptly, his concerned sisters sent this news to Jesus, who was across the Jordan River.
Jesus had affection for Lazarus and his sisters, so in time he set out for Bethany. On the road, Jesus told his disciples: "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep."

Since the disciples did not immediately grasp the meaning of this statement, Jesus said plainly: "Lazarus has died."—John 11:1-15.

 

[Quahom1]

sure will .



and as always it will be inline with what the bible REALLY teaches.



and Jesus himself when Lazurus died , said he was asleep he likened death to sleep.


Lazarus became gravely ill. Promptly, his concerned sisters sent this news to Jesus, who was across the Jordan River.
Jesus had affection for Lazarus and his sisters, so in time he set out for Bethany. On the road, Jesus told his disciples: "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep."

Since the disciples did not immediately grasp the meaning of this statement, Jesus said plainly: "Lazarus has died."—John 11:1-15.

That was only Lazarus (one man, one situation). There is no assumption logical that can show this to be for every man...

You can go to sleep if you wish.

 

[Dondi]

I have to say that while it isn't necessarily Biblical, the overwhelming number of NDE accounts I've read or outright personally witnessed while working in hospice just doesn't jive with soul sleep to me. I'd have to ignore mountains of evidence of something else. The NDE accounts are overwhelming and include people who have been dead for 10+ minutes, in accounts I myself have heard. On top of that, you have oodles of people (mostly young children) from all over the world who have memories from a young age of another life in the past. What do we make of that?

Yeah, NDEs. I only wish they could be more consistent. There are so many different experiences of it. Usually, there is some coorelation between a person's experience and their religious background, suggesting a subconscious element in bringing up images that the person would expect. At any rate, as much as I like to believe NDEs, and I do not outrightly dismiss the possibility of they representing some reality of the afterlife, it is still a case of someone being resusitated, rather that resurrected, so how do we know that it isn't the brain providing the experience? The same goes for past-lives.

Then there is the suggestion that many of these experiences are the deception of demonic activity, reasoning that if demons or spirit have been around forever, then they could provide spurious information that could appear as memory.

But who knows? I suppose I would be convinced if it happened to me. Right now I don't know of any convincing means of testing NDEs. There was one hospital (I forget who) that put a sign with a message in one of the overhead lights in the OR in hopes that someone who has an NDE will able to read it while floating above his/her body. However, I don't think anyone has yet done so. But that's the kind of evidence that would lend credence to NDEs, IMO.

 

[path_of_one]

I don't think that diversity in NDE experiences means they aren't experiencing something real. Again, that is the same argument that atheists use to dismiss religious experience of God. I just find it odd to use the same basic arguments others use against spiritual experience on NDE and past life experience.

Personally, I think there is no one after life experience. I think we do various things and go various places, probably partly based on what we have faith in and partly on what will best serve God. I'm not very fixated on nailing down the afterlife. To me, that's like trying to hold on to the goo that is made with cornstarch and water. While we're holding on super tight, it feels solid, but the instant we begin to open up our hand and really look at it, it slides through our fingers like liquid.

So maybe some people sleep, and some don't. Some reincarnate and some don't.

As for the NDEs- I personally have talked with people who were not resusitated. One, for example, completely died and was taken off the machinery and the doctors left to await the clean-up crew. She could recount to the doctor his entire speech to her husband, which was in a waiting room far away from her room where she died, and which made the doctor very uncomfortable because of her word-for-word accuracy. She had left her body, realized she was dead, went with the doctor to deliver the news to her husband, then entered the tunnel of light, met up with God, and God miraculously put her soul back in her body, along with saving her unborn child, who also died in the hemmorhage that had occurred during childbirth. She was alone in the room when she woke up, and had to go fetch a nurse since she was still in labor. Despite her bleeding out and dying, she did not require blood donations. They were freaked out and nervous. She remembered her entire experience with clarity and said it was nothing like what she expected as a Catholic- it changed her entire religious perspective.

So, I don't know. There are tons of stories like that.

I know some people believe demons are floating around, allowed by God to try to push us away from Him and into some sort of spiritual untruth. I just don't believe God is cruel like that. I think if we seek Him, He protects us. I think if we ask genuinely, He leads us to valid answers. I would find a God that seeks to lead us astray despite our best intentions to be cruel.

 

[Dondi]

I agree with that point of view. It does raise some interesting questions for me:

1. Where are Enoch and Elijah?
2. Why did Steven see a vision of heaven at his death
3. How did Samuel appear to Saul?
4. How did Moses & Elijah appear on the mountain?

It answers many other questions, though.

1. Seems Elijah and Enoch were somehow 'translated', I guess meaning they have resurrected bodies, and that they were taken into heaven.

2. Don't know. But other prophets like Ezekiel and Isaiah have likewise had heavenly visions. And I don't know why this would be relevant to the current discussion.

3. Some believe that is was an unfamilar, albeit more powerful, spirit (as opposed to the familiar spirit that the witch was comfortable with) and hence that scared the crap out of her. She exclaimed that she saw 'gods ascending out of the earth'. If Satan can transform into an angel of light, who knows how far the deception could go. There is doubt about it being really Samuel, because God already forbad communicating with the dead.

4. I have no problem with Elijah, since we've already mentioned he was translated. Moses is a sticker problem. But there are clues that might provide an answer. One is that Deut. 34:5-6 tells us that when Moses died, God Himself buried him and no one knew where. Then in Jude 9, there is an incident where Michael the archangel contended with the devil over the body of Moses. Why? Could it be that Moses at some point was raised from the dead? Hence Moses and Elijah were able to appear to Jesus on the mount.