Christianity Outside the Box

In order to get at the mysteries you speak of we first have to identify and accept the myriad of mistakes we've made in the past...

Really? I'm amazed! I mean, I often meet people ready to tell me what's wrong with the Church, but they never mention the Mysteries ... you'd think all they were interested in was putting Her down ... how strange ...

In my experience, you'll just end up very well rehearsed in the mistakes. When I ask, "OK, we've covered some of what's wrong ... now how about what's right?" ... silence. There seems to be a somewhat illogical and indiscriminate rule that if there's any wrong, then it's all wrong — a rule they don't apply to themselves, by the way.

+++

I know we're sinners, Wil ... I am a man ... I live with my own sins enough without having to seek out my neighbour's. You don't love by looking to see what's wrong. I'm not interested in sin, but salvation — the former just leads to an appetite for the salacious.

Would it help if I apologised for every mistake the Catholic Church has made? If so, then I apologise, whole-heartedly and without reservation.

But then men are sinners ... and as de Lubac wrote (in the 60s):
"The shop-worn contrast which some still delight in making between the Church and the gospel of Christ is an easily exploitable theme because it is all too evident that the Church seen in her members is never completely faithful. Sin, which is to be found everywhere, does not spare the Church — neither sin nor all the other marks of human frailty. It is no less true, however, that is is still the Church which brings us the gospel of Christ and, still more important, more true today than ever before that the generalized criticism of the Church is linked to a movement that draws away from the gospels."

Can we get on now?

Thomas
 
Well hi Nick A. Sounds as if you'd like to get a discussion going in this pen. Perhaps you'd like to ealborate upon your brief thoughts here. It's a big pen in this thread with wide parameters in my opinion. :Dthanks, Earl

Hi Earl

Well if you are a connoisseur of good scotch and can enjoy it while not allowing yourself to become possessed by it, you are a man of potential. I salute you.

Well hi Nick A. Sounds as if you'd like to get a discussion going in this pen. Perhaps you'd like to ealborate upon your brief thoughts here. It's a big pen in this thread with wide parameters in my opinion. :Dthanks, Earl

Discussing Christianity from the point of view of secular Interfaith is impossible since Christianity is not secular in origin or purpose. Secular Interfaith concerns itself with differing secular interpretations.

Interfaith can only meaningfully discuss Christianity from a transcendent perspective or transcendent Interfaith. Where secular Interfaith reasons from the bottom up, transcendent Interfaith reasons from the top down.

Twice I've organized book discussions in my area on Jacob Needleman's book "Lost Christianity." When people read it we had a common focal point from which we could communicate and compare our impressions. At one time two students wanted to join the discussion without reading the book since they thought they already knew everything. when they were turned away they decided to read just to annoy the rest. They soon learned it was quite interesting and became a useful part of the discussion. This happened because we had a healthy dialogue that featured both inductive (bottom up) and deductive (top down) reason. We became friendly and they told me that they had never read Christianity described like this. They were used to fundamentalists.

Everything is connected in Christianity and this wholeness has to be gradually experientially revealed within our psych. But arguments over incidentals like corrupt priests are the norm for society. This can raise interesting discussions concerning the varieties of Christendom, but it is not Christianity.

Christianity is the struggle between heaven and earth for human "being". We are called to both directions. Christianity offers a means by which they can be reconciled and man can acquire his spiritual potential which is called the "Kingdom" or the seed of the soul preserved within the body of Christ or what is called "salvation.". Fighting about corrupt priests isn't the issue. The Christian question is how to become open to our own inner struggle between heaven and earth and how to deal with it.
 
Can't say there's anything in what you wrote I'd disagree with Nick A, including the scotch.:D Thomas has often posted that he also agrees that there is really no effective interreligous path of practice (or perhaps even a unified transcendent truth reflective of all religious understandings that we humans can at least wrap our consciousness around). Lately I tend to be in agreement. Thomas though is a wonderful scholar of Christian theology which I admire. For me, though, my spirituality is based more in application or practice not in certain grand metaphysical certainty or even a lot of speculation about absolute truth. Rather, it's about deeply sensing what makes sense for me and honorig that with sincere application. Thomas, if you're out there, I ain't too far out of the box these days given Jesus is now definitely my "guru" and/or "doorway."
 
Not even sacramental scotch?

Sounds like a topic. I know there are some teetotalin denominations and others which stick only to the wine and others that you can party with the preacher...

I was at a Baptist church in Alaska where the preacher called out a Deacon, defrocked him in front of about 1,500 people because he saw his car at the bar for the last time. That was enough of that church for me.
Choose your rate, pick your fate...:cool:
 
I like this here Shiner hefeweizen, myself.

When it comes to mysteries, I have been taught that there are lesser mysteries ... and that these are quite accessible today, though by no means `mundane' in the sense that they must, should or can be boiled down to a least common denominator.

There are, however, also the Greater Mysteries, but these are something that are much greater than Christianity alone. And that has been my argument all along, as it will always continue to be. The reason for this, is that I have not one, teeny - even evanescent - shadow of a doubt ... that I am correct in this.

Christianity is as valid a means of approach as any other, though I prefer Buddhism for its ready rejection of anthropomorophism ... at least among the Tibetans, and especially the Gelug and Nyingmas. Does that mean I don't believe in an Ultimate, Supreme LOGOS? Certainly I do believe in such ... yet the kind of hylozoism, or panentheism in which I MUST place my faith also tells me that the Supreme Logos has in Its purview, and for its body of manifestation, ALL OF COSMOS. And from what I hear, "space is big - REALLY REALLY big." :) ;)

What can the lesser mysteries teach us about ourselves, each other, and the world in which we live? Pretty much anything that is of immediate practical concern. They do not stop there, however, and a sincere student can learn about how God's Kingdoms have been established upon the Earth originally, how they have progressed and changed over vast aeons (of time), and also how some which are not even yet fully established (hmmm) are coming into sway during this time - with Humanity's cooperation, that is.

The Greater Mysteries reveal to us our Identity, at a point far ahead for each of us - in our evolutionary trek, and spiritual Pilgrimage. In the meantime, I am 100% confident that we come increasingly under the influence of the Cosmic Christ, as this Universal Presence expresses Itself (Consciously, Lovingly, Intelligently and with growing Power and Purpose) via Sirius -- something the ancient Egyptians knew full well tens of thousands of years ago.

That Christianity may have absconded with some of this Wisdom might not have been such a tragedy, if the travesty of even the lesser mysteries had not resulted. What is GOOD about what remains, in the exoteric portions?

Perhaps the Four Gospels that were allowed to survived as canonical, are a key to the real contribution that Christianity has made, and can still make, to Human culture. Though much has been adulterated and certainly misinterpreted, we have not failed to at least recognized and celebrate Christ's message of unconditional love (AGAPE) ... and though we do not yet practice what we preach, we at least have some idea of the importance of forgiveness. Seldom do we dare to assume that God actually wishes for us to practice forgiveness exactly as we would have this virtue practiced toward us ... yet by no other path will we finally be able to overcome some of the hurdles that currently divide our hearts from the Divine('s).

The lesser mysteries teach us that the Elohim rule or preside over other planets besides our own, and these are without this very solar system. No religion fails to convey this message, but the implications are too much for most folks to consider. That, perhaps based on fear, on 50s science fiction movies, or just xenophobia in general. Nonetheless, the teachings are there.

We are taught about the exact conditions of life after death, how to prepare from the earliest of our years in the physical body, how to help others both during our years on earth and even after we have made our own transition ... and just why it is that such a cycle even exists. Nowhere has the doctrine of Rebirth been denied from us, save until the ecclesiastical `authorities' decided it was much more convenient (for them) to keep our focus on tithing and rigid ideologies that explicitly forbid the investigation of the other Wisdom Traditions still in existence.

We know all too well what extreme effots the church has made to extinguish the Light as it shines through other Sages, Prophets, Teachers and Saviors ... so why should those who Know pretend that Christ's Revelation was the first, or the only one that matters? It has always been known that there is a Cosmic Christ, and we do not need this Truth repackaged in order to grasp its real significance, or to put into practice the spiritual indications (principles and guidelines) which are known to lead a wo/man to Salvation.

Best of all, the lesser mysteries provide us with indication of why Humanity is here to begin with, how we have evolved - both materially and Spiritually - to our present conditions (for better and for worse), and where it is we are headed, again both materially and spiritually speaking -- as well as how we can reach our Goal(s) most effectively, with the least suffering for the planet and all Kingdoms hereupon.

Deny us this knowledge, this potential Wisdom (since Wisdom can only come through practice), and whomever you are, whatever you are, Good ceases to become your Master, and Truth fast surrounds you as an enemy. I greatly admire those who work so hard for reform from within ANY conventional Christian viewpoint, with loyalties to the institution, or to some particular church or denomination ... but I think the Achille's Heel for many of these folks is that they cannot see past tradition, past "what seems to work," simply because it has (supposedly) always worked -- when others of us know all too well what price has been paid by anyone who dared to differ across the centuries.

Are we through paying this price? If so, then why so much backlash when matters are brought into question? Why is it necessary to defend everything about one's tradition, simply because this is what has (supposedly) ALWAYS been done?

When the zodiac that is carved into STONE is shown to the Christian, PROVING to him that nearly every single sacred rite, belief or observance existed even tens of thousands of years before Christ Jesus ... why cannot he simply ponder -- upon the possible implications of this Truth? Why cannot he ask himself, "Did the mysteries exist before Christ Jesus gathered his flock, and brought His new Revelation to Humankind?"

No one denies the Work of the Christ, save those who have only an axe to grind, or an ideology of their own to hoist up the flagpole ... or who, themselves, have never stopped to ask, "Just who was Christed Jesus, and just what did He accomplish, or seek to accomplish?" Sure, there is a great deal of literature out there which seeks to argue that Jesus was never a historical personage, that Jesus was not at all as we have come to understand him, or even that somehow, oddly enough, that Jesus was far less important than we Intuitively KNOW to actually be the case.

I would not DARE deny the Christian the understanding, the very real REALIZATION (part of true Revelation, but only ONE part of it) and the concomitant acceptance of Christ's obvious spiritual importance to EVERYONE on this planet. But what I challenge is the attitude of "my way or the highway." This is what underlies the arguments of some of us, and I am as guilty of this as the next person. I figure it isn't that helpful to name names, but we do have folks at CR who represent several extremes among Christian viewpoints ... and also certain views outside of mainstream Christianity (again, I include my own errors here) ... who seem hellbent at times on simply spamming their own viewpoint into predominance, or into acceptance. Why is it so hard to accept that others do not want to see things that way?

Coming back to the mysteries for a moment, I'll try to pull some of this together. Notice that when such and such a topic comes up, there are those who seem to know all. They have so much to say, and so much to share, and at heart (at HEART), there is nothing wrong with this. They may, or may not, be correct in their understanding ... and what is shared may or may not be accurate. It is likely partially accurate, but I doubt any of us here is so well in possession of Ultimate Truth -- either in terms of the Greater Mysteries or even the lesser -- that we can simply type up a post and have it ring out as Gospel. Would that we all had such an ability, or level of understanding! ;)

Still, we all have something to contribute, and at times, it is probably true that some particular individual either is in the spotlight, deserves the spotlight - in order to get her point across, and share valuable, very helpful information ... or in the very least, ought to be taken quite seriously, or perhaps just more seriously than we might be accustomed to taking them. This may mean that someone you generally don't care to hear from, or find yourself disagreeing with, has just made a tremendously valuable, vital point ... and to refuse to accept this because, "Oh, that person is a Muslim, oh, that person is into Wicca," is just plain prejudice, and ignorance.

But no one -- at least that I am vaguely aware of -- has the sole right to "hog the spotlight," and to demand that I be heard, regardless as the circumstances ... or topic, nuance, etc. I will gladly take my back seat, you see, once I click the `post' button -- and even that does not guarantee, or signify, that I have spoken pure, unadulterated truth in my post ... though I will this much -- I certainly would never intentionally post what I myself believed to be false.

This much may seem for granted, and a given, yet I shall NEVER cease to come back to wil's wonderful THINK guidelines ... as long as I have anything I feel worth posting at CR -- or even just the inclination to come here and read a bit.

Is it TRUE, is it HELPFUL, is it INSPIRATIONAL ... as well as NECESSARY and KIND?

Seldom am I doubtful about the first qualifcation, but if I have to put my potential posts to the rest of the test ... I cannot always be so certain. I sometimes abandon them altogether, and quite frequently edit them - even extensively. Were I to really stick to this guideline, you might never hear from me again ... but then, I do believe we all have something to contribute, even if some of us (such as myself) might benefit both self and others by paying incredibly more attention to motivation and likely impact.

That said, should I be afraid to share what I think about Christianity, both historical and evolving or emerging?

Absolutely not. After all, each of us is 100% free to take it or leave it. Hopefully, we feel not the slightest need to swallow things whole, nor an automatic, gut-level reaction of dismissing what has been said out of hand, simply because our own viewpoint is different -- even radically so.

I do not expect most folks at CR, especially those with strong Christian beliefs, to ever see Christ Jesus as some others of us do ... yet I still feel that there is much we can learn by an exchange with each other whereby all sorts of possibilities are explored. These include similarities of belief and differences, points of intersection with other religions (cultures, mythologies, ideologies) entirely, as well as any number of personal anecdotes, assumptions and insights.

For instance, I take for granted as part of my own spirituality that Christ Jesus never intended, in the least, for his followers to worship him ... or to come into the understanding that simply through faith in his example, they might attain final Salvation or deliverance from a cycle of learning, spiritual growth and renewal. However, this is probably one of the most basic tenets of modern Christianity, and as such, I realize many may celebrate it as one of the Mysteries (whether they themselves would call it lesser, or Greater).

If asked, I can make it quite plain why just such a `mystery' cannot either be explained, or entirely nullified in one's individual belief ... precisely because there is nothing at all logical about the suffering of one person (whatever his SPIRITUAL status) somehow substituting, or atoning, for the wrongdoing of another (much less the many billions of us).

Can I PROVE that we have things all wrong? No. And for those who claim this as one of the chief articles of their faith, I'm not sure I have any real right to ... or need to. It is only when someone asks, "Hmmm, WHY on Earth (!) -- much less in Heaven -- should ONE MAN's dying in ANY way affect the spiritual status of individuals living thousands of years later?" -- only when THIS question is asked of me, and an open mind is also offered to me in accompaniment -- that I can really feel comfortable, confident and rightly motivated in the sharing of another take on things, which makes infinitely more sense to me, both logically and spiritually -- and in fulfilment of both the lesser and Greater Mysteries.

And in sharing, I cannot but preface everything I have to say with, "This is my current understanding" ... or, as the Buddhists say, "Thus have I heard ..."

The moment I say, THIS is how it is, regardless as to what others may say, I speak a subtle lie, even though I may not realize it, or certainly intend it, myself. And that is why I am not only skeptical, but extremely reluctant sometimes to look into what is so well contained, carefully - even jealously - guarded ... "within the box."

If connections cannot be seen, then I would suggest we are not looking.
If no understanding whatsover presents itself, then I would suggest we have not left adequate room.

I ran out of hefe a good while ago. If I think about my post carefully, it might be shortened by 90% ... but, do forgive me, I really would prefer another beer. :eek:

cheers,

Andrew
 
Hi Netti-Netti —

Aren't the Mysteries unknowable by definition?

Well a general definition might be, truths we know concerning what is, but not how it is ... so science, for example, is the unravelling of such truths ... and so once the mystery is understood, it ceases to be a mystery.

But invariably, as science shows, once understood, there seems to be yet a deeper mystery ... and the pursuit goes on.

Mystery in the Christian context is a truth communicated by Revelation, a truth that we cannot know from observation ... we cannot attain to unaided by reason or intellect, but only in faith.

Christian mysteries, furthermore, because of their nature (which is super-natural) cannot be adequately represented by rational (natural) concepts precisely because they draw us 'out of the box' of reason and speculation into an order of being that transcends human nature.

Thomas
 
As I understand it, Christianity is not in a box. The various man made boxes known collectively as Christendom were "liberal improvements" to appeal to the secular mind..

Christianity initiated with a conscious source so the sincere seeker must abandon the secular liberal improvements to return to its conscious source which is not limited to man made boxes. But it seems that the current trend is to create more socially acceptable boxes and the process is called thinking outside the box. OK.

Well, as long as one can still acquire good scotch, all is not lost.

Unfortunately, Christianity stopped being Christianity when those 300+ bishops meet at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and sold out to Constantine by agreeing to take power away from every Christian by rejecting Arianism in return for some personal power granted to them by Constantine. It was the old thirty pieces of silver morality tale all over again and Christians are paying the price of that deceit even today.
 
Aren't the Mysteries unknowable by definition?

Good point. However, that only applies to reasoning, observation, and other empirical aspects. One cannot know a Mystery if they are on the outside of it. Knowing is to be on the outside of the Mystery because knowing entails a knower and the known. This phenomenal approach is doomed to failure.

Spiritual transformation results in the person being the Mystery at which point it is no longer a Mystery.
 
Good point. However, that only applies to reasoning, observation, and other empirical aspects. One cannot know a Mystery if they are on the outside of it. Knowing is to be on the outside of the Mystery because knowing entails a knower and the known. This phenomenal approach is doomed to failure.

Spiritual transformation results in the person being the Mystery at which point it is no longer a Mystery.

Well said. The carrot on the stick approach needs some rethinking ...
 
Unfortunately, Christianity stopped being Christianity when those 300+ bishops meet at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and sold out to Constantine by agreeing to take power away from every Christian by rejecting Arianism in return for some personal power granted to them by Constantine. It was the old thirty pieces of silver morality tale all over again and Christians are paying the price of that deceit even today.

Sorry Oprem, but that's an incomplete argument ... the Council could have decided to adopt Arius' theology and still have your "personal power granted to them by Constantine", so that doesn't really explain why they rejected Arianism.

If you study Arius' theology however, you will see it's an attempt to put God 'in a box' according to human reasoning ... Arius insisted that there cannot be any direct union between God and man, there has to be an intermediary, a demiurge.

Thomas
 
Good point. However, that only applies to reasoning, observation, and other empirical aspects. One cannot know a Mystery if they are on the outside of it.
I would tend to disagree ... Man's religious impulse throughout history says so. Indeed, man's seeking nature is a testimony to his desire to know. For some, the Mystery permeates the mundane.

What is wonder, if not the apprehension of a Mystery?

East and West, the disciple follows the Master with a hunger to see the world as if through the other's eyes.

And you assume that nature ... open to reason, observation and empirical measurement ... does not itself suggest a Mystery, whereas for many it does — therein lies the ground of all philosophy.

That it might not to one does not mean it does not to another.

Everyone knows that the apple falls from the tree, but Newton was the first to ask, 'what mystery is this that makes the apple fall?'

Knowing is to be on the outside of the Mystery because knowing entails a knower and the known.
Love is a lover and the loved ... yet one is in love, not outside of it.

Think of the metaphysical poets ... or the great mystics ...

What is wonder, if not the apprehension of a Mystery?

Wonder ceases when we reduce the mystery to the measurable, when we have glimpsed it, measured it, reasoned it and determined it ... and decided that we know all there is to be known ...

... and thus we put it in the box.

This phenomenal approach is doomed to failure.
Oh, I have come to learn we should not make absolute statements — this reflects the Anglo-American school of analytical empiricism. Personally I favour the Continental school of phenomenology. Either way, one cannot make such a statement absolutely:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Wm. Shakespeare, The Tragedy of Hamlet Prince of Denmark, Act I, scene V)

Spiritual transformation results in the person being the Mystery at which point it is no longer a Mystery.
To make such a statement necessarily assumes a priori that one knows all that being can be ... that spiritual transformation renders one equal to that which wrought the transformation ... is this not the error of Adam writ large? Does it not assumes that, in being transformed, that the creature is the equal of its Creator?

In the UK 2 out of 3 marriages end in divorce, and I would suggest that assuming that one 'knows' one's partner is a significant part of that failure. I've been with mine for over thirty years, and she is still my surprise and my delight.

If another human, with a nature no different from mine own, can do that ... and I have heard of some for whom the journey has been twice as long, and the journeying twice as rich ... then I suggest it is unwise to assume that in coming to know God, whose nature transcends mans' own in every degree, one knows everything there is to be known.

That the finite and contingent can possess the measure of the Absolute and the Infinite seems a contradiction to me ... if not worse.

For me, an integral part of the Mystery is it does not cease ... it is an infinite unfolding ...

Thomas
 
Sorry Oprem, but that's an incomplete argument ... the Council could have decided to adopt Arius' theology and still have your "personal power granted to them by Constantine", so that doesn't really explain why they rejected Arianism.

If you study Arius' theology however, you will see it's an attempt to put God 'in a box' according to human reasoning ... Arius insisted that there cannot be any direct union between God and man, there has to be an intermediary, a demiurge.

Thomas

I don't believe "demiurge" is quite the right word for the direct connection between father and son but IMO the idea is sound. If the Father is outside time and space, creation is within time and space. The idea of a Son of God being able to cosmologically descend and aid in man's evolution within time and space so that he can experience the father seems like a sound one. The alternative of this "personal God" IMO has been a disaster and has only furthered corrupt egotism.
 
Sorry Oprem, but that's an incomplete argument ... the Council could have decided to adopt Arius' theology and still have your "personal power granted to them by Constantine", so that doesn't really explain why they rejected Arianism.

If you study Arius' theology however, you will see it's an attempt to put God 'in a box' according to human reasoning ... Arius insisted that there cannot be any direct union between God and man, there has to be an intermediary, a demiurge.

Thomas

You misunderstand Arianism quite substantially. First, that 'demiurge', as you put it, was Jesus but, more importantly, given the Arian belief in reincarnation, even the 'demiurge' was not necessary in the very long term because everyone had that opportunity to perfect themselves to the moral level of Jesus and be taken to God because of that. The Church wasn't necessary, Jesus wasn't necessary and the Emperor was just another guy.

Arianism was a threat to the bishops because it denied the Trinity and therefore, in their view, the Mystery of God. As Arius himself said in a letter to Eusebius of Nicomedia, the Son "is no part of the Ingenerate." He saw God as One without another. Christ was viewed as the most perfect creature in the material world, whose moral integrity led him to be "adopted" by God as a son but who nevertheless remained a secondary deity, or Logos substantially unlike the eternal, uncreated Father and subordinate to his will. This meant, as I indicated above, especially considering the Arius also supported reincarnation, that others, in fact, everyone, could eventually rise to a high enough level of moral integrity to also be ‘adopted’ by God. They may not attain God status but they certainly could attain Jesus status.

Arianism was a threat to both the Emperor and the Church because it supported reincarnation. The bishops were threatened because with reincarnation, one did not need them to come eventually to God. The Emperor was threatened because every one was divine under Arianism and equal to , if not more equal than him.
 
Omprem: "One cannot know a Mystery if they are on the outside of it."

I would tend to disagree ... Man's religious impulse throughout history says so. Indeed, man's seeking nature is a testimony to his desire to know. For some, the Mystery permeates the mundane.

What is wonder, if not the apprehension of a Mystery?

The Mystery may permeate the mundane but examining the mundane with the flawed and limited senses will not reveal the extent of the Mystery. It will forever remain a Mystery following that route. The apprehension of the Mystery does not come through the senses but rather through the spiritual intuition of the chakra system.

One cannot remain on the outside of mystery and expect to understand it. It is only by becoming the Mystery that Mystery is solved.

East and West, the disciple follows the Master with a hunger to see the world as if through the other's eyes.

Not at all. They want to see God as the Master sees God. But they soon discover, if the Master is authentic, that the Master will not do that job for them only show how to do it for themselves.

And you assume that nature ... open to reason, observation and empirical measurement ... does not itself suggest a Mystery, whereas for many it does — therein lies the ground of all philosophy.

It is not reason, observation or empiricism that suggests the Mystery but rather the spiritual intuition. Those who depend exclusively on sense impression and empiricism are not consciously aware that they possess faculties for spiritual intuition so they misattribute whatever Mystery presents itself to them as coming from empiricism and its accoutrements.

Everyone knows that the apple falls from the tree, but Newton was the first to ask, 'what mystery is this that makes the apple fall?'

I notice that not even you believe this is relevant because you and Newton switched from using an upper case 'Mystery' to a lower case 'mystery', signifying a dramatic change in meaning. (that is the logical fallacy known as Equivocation or the Fallacy of four terms) What is unknown to science but still within its purview can be termed a mystery that can be solved with the techniques of science. But that which is unknown to science and beyond its capabilities to discover will forever remain a Mystery to science and those who depend on it exclusively.


Love is a lover and the loved ... yet one is in love, not outside of it.

This too is an equivocation on words, specifically what it means to be 'outside of'. It also depends on which of the many forms of love you are referring to: physical love, emotional love and intellectual love all involve ego and therefore one is outside of the beloved; it is only in the Pure Love of Spiritual Realization that one merges into and becomes the Beloved, i.e. God. You are not at this latter stage yet.

Think of the metaphysical poets ... or the great mystics ...

Mystics agree with me that One cannot know a Mystery if they are on the outside of it. They all seek merger either permanent or temporary with That which they seek.

What is wonder, if not the apprehension of a Mystery?

Again, apprehension of a Mystery does not mean one knows what the details of the Mystery, only that it exists. All religious/spiritual practices are intended to change the consciousness so that one can merge into the Mystery and know its secrets.

Wonder ceases when we reduce the mystery to the measurable, when we have glimpsed it, measured it, reasoned it and determined it ... and decided that we know all there is to be known ...

... and thus we put it in the box.

It seems to me that you have put yourself in a box. First you extol the supposed virtues of empiricism and now you agree with me that empiricism is totally inadequate to access Mystery. Do you actually know what it is that you believe and are trying to say? You do seem to be confused.


Oh, I have come to learn we should not make absolute statements

Aside from the fact that you just made an absolute statement and thus invalidated your own argument, I offer the following:

God is Absolute. There is nothing other than God. God is One without an other.

There, that was easy. Your statement is refuted.


To make such a statement necessarily assumes a priori that one knows all that being can be ... that spiritual transformation renders one equal to that which wrought the transformation ... is this not the error of Adam writ large? Does it not assumes that, in being transformed, that the creature is the equal of its Creator?


Spiritual transformation does indeed render one equal that which wrought the transformation. But nothing was created or added, that which was transformed was always that which wrought the transformation. The only difference is the removal of the obstacles (i.e. egoism and an addiction to sense impression) that clouded the awareness of this. The case of Adam is exactly the opposite. He was already highly evolved spiritually being on a first name basis with God but choose to step outside of that connection by giving into hubris, becoming seduced by the things of senses, mistaking them for reality and lowering himself from Unity to a relative state of good and evil.

That the finite and contingent can possess the measure of the Absolute and the Infinite seems a contradiction to me ... if not worse.

You will understand it when you arrive there. But based on your description of your marriage you don't seem to have an urgency to know God directly and are currently unwilling to put in the time and discipline to do so. But that is why reincarnation is there. In the meantime, consider one's soul and God to be an example of the contingent containing a measure of the Absolute.

For me, an integral part of the Mystery is it does not cease ... it is an infinite unfolding ...

Thomas

Good luck with your journey but considering that you are not yet at a point on the journey where you can understand certain things you should not be too quick to deny them.
 
I have withdrawn from CR precisely because it is nigh-on impossible to get to any real 'depth' of discussion — the meat rather than the milk — so much of what passes as 'thinking outside the box' is mundane compared to the Mysteries as they stand in their own right — indeed much of it reduces the mystery to banality and the commonplace.

When one considers that Revelation, by its nature, unveils that which is inaccessible to the human faculty, then 'thinking outside the box' is shown for what it actually is, an attempt to bring everything into one's zone of comfort.

Thomas

What that means is, you are deeper than everyone else. I was raised catholic my friend. The deepness and mystery you claim is dogma placed in your mind that anyone can read.
 
Hope to breathe, think, and live outside of the box. The box critters can wait for their morsel.
 
Hope to breathe, think, and live outside of the box. The box critters can wait for their morsel.

Do you really mean that or would you really like to create the most satisfying and secure box?
 
Hi Nick —

I don't believe "demiurge" is quite the right word for the direct connection between father and son but IMO the idea is sound.
I think it suits for Arius ... he believed that Jesus Christ was neither God nor man, but something in between, higher than the angels, lower than God — something created, but sharing some of the nature of the divine ... quite how this was supposed to work was never satisfactorily explained, and the proliferation of semiArian doctrines that followed suggests that no-one else was sure either.

If the Father is outside time and space, creation is within time and space.
But there is nothing to prevent the Father acting in time and space. As I have said elsewhere, the finite is within the infinite, were that not so, then infinite would not be infinite, by definition.

The idea of a Son of God being able to cosmologically descend and aid in man's evolution within time and space so that he can experience the father seems like a sound one.
The Incarnation has nothing to do with evolution, which itself suggests a temporal process. The Incarnation is an atemporal event in that sense. Nor can one say that from anthropomorphic to theomorphic is an evolutionary step ... as it is not the product of a natural process, but a supernatural one.

Again, Arius posited that the world was not created by God, but by a divine agent ... what no-one seems to realise is that when the likes of Alexander, Athanasius and Hilary stood up to Arius, they were defending the idea of Union with the Divine ... if Arius had his way, 'God the Father' would remain forever inaccessible, unknowable, unapproachable ... the gulf between creature and creator would be absolute.

A very pessimistic picture, really. Luckily, the optimists won the day.

The alternative of this "personal God" IMO has been a disaster and has only furthered corrupt egotism.
Ah well ... each to his own, I suppose.

Thomas
 
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