I think Jews shouldn't consume animals.
- Thread starter LAGoff
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17th Angel
לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
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It's a Jewish forum. I'm not an expert in other religions. I heard Hindus and Buddhists and 7th day adventists, and Sikhs? don't eat meat, but I'm not sure they do it for the same reasons as Jews do it. I'd like to know why these religions don't consume meat though.
Anyway, If you(a Jew) knew the facts of factory farming, could you eat meat in peace?
If you say yes, then I'd like to know more about your thought process.
I have alot of Jewish sources that have convinced me that the Tora at least discourages it. However, now in the age of factory farming(post WW2) I have to go further and say that it's a sin. The only question is about the ignorant Jew on this matter. I suppose they are off the hook. Then there are those who think it's o.k.; and even further, holy; and even further, that I'm sinning by not consuming meat!
Anyway, If you(a Jew) knew the facts of factory farming, could you eat meat in peace?
If you say yes, then I'd like to know more about your thought process.
I have alot of Jewish sources that have convinced me that the Tora at least discourages it. However, now in the age of factory farming(post WW2) I have to go further and say that it's a sin. The only question is about the ignorant Jew on this matter. I suppose they are off the hook. Then there are those who think it's o.k.; and even further, holy; and even further, that I'm sinning by not consuming meat!
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
i eat meat. i like it. i only eat kosher though and i wish that that also meant that the animals are always treated with the highest standards of ethics, but i'm afraid it isn't the case always. i understand that there is probably a point in the messianic age where i'd stop eating it, but i am *so* not there yet.
b'shalom
bananabrain
b'shalom
bananabrain
What are your scriptural references for this. I thought they were exactly the opposite after the garden.
Time for some free range Kosher. I quit eating store bought when I saw chicken legs that were broken from the weight of the breasts and cows at the feedlot that gained a hundred pounds the week before slaughter. But for a few years still ate what got in front of my gun.bb said:
Is it possible to hunt kosher? For Orthodox to hunt?
splain yourself Lucy! Is this a personal journey? ie can one make the destination ahead of the crowd?bb said:
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Messianic Age/no meat? Unfortunately, the main tradition has animal sacrifices being conducted in a Third Temple(Ezekiel's, which had provisions for animal sacrifices). But then, there's the tradition that "the lamb will lie down with the wolf... and no more destruction on My holy mount"(Isaiah 11)- i.e. a return to Edenic conditions.
So, where does that leave us? The last prayer in the Amida says that we hope sacrifices(minchas) will be re-established. Minchot doesn't necessarily mean animal sacrifices.
Whether I'm a vegan or not is irrelevant in regards to this discussion.
"Why only Jews" seems to be a response/concern by some respondents here: Disregarding the "Eastern" religions(which are pantheistic- and therefore have a different thinking process), the Koran and New Testament don't have(I believe) anything to say against consuming animals; therefore, since the Torah does have some things to say(explicit and implicit) against meat(and eggs and milk/cheese,etc.) consumption, I guess that's why I put: "Jews"- that is, until someone can disabuse me of this notion.
So, where does that leave us? The last prayer in the Amida says that we hope sacrifices(minchas) will be re-established. Minchot doesn't necessarily mean animal sacrifices.
Whether I'm a vegan or not is irrelevant in regards to this discussion.
"Why only Jews" seems to be a response/concern by some respondents here: Disregarding the "Eastern" religions(which are pantheistic- and therefore have a different thinking process), the Koran and New Testament don't have(I believe) anything to say against consuming animals; therefore, since the Torah does have some things to say(explicit and implicit) against meat(and eggs and milk/cheese,etc.) consumption, I guess that's why I put: "Jews"- that is, until someone can disabuse me of this notion.
Why I'm a vegetarian(I don't like the word vegan; it sounds like someone from the star system of Vega. To me, if you eat eggs and milk, then you are not a vegetarian, because meat and milk are not VEGETables!- fish to me is ok, except for the dolphins,etc. caught in those large nets; also, aquaculture(artificial ponds) may be causing the fish suffering, and other problems- I don't like labels, that's why I snapped at the question. I don't eat any meat or fish or eggs(I still use a margarine that has some whey in it, but I'm looking for one that tastes nearly as good))? 1. I got some information on the treatment of animals on factory farms; 2. the ratio of waste(i.e. to produce a pound of meat takes 20 pounds of grain, and lots of water, and produces lots of CO2 and methane- all not necessary since we can get our protein from plant sources; 3. then there's the religious aspects(i.e. all the things in the written and oral Torahs). 4. the health issues: eating basically a decomposing carcass thats been pumped full of antibiotics(to keep alive long enough). Eggs and dairy products? Just fooling yourself. The animals are kept as milk and egg machines(with all the suffering this implies), and then they are killed for food. Anyway, BABIES drink milk, not adults.
Sheitl, let's remove the sheitl:
The evidence from the Tora(s)?
1. Written Law: Gen. 1:28,29: animals and man's diet is to be plant based. By the way, this is one of the three original blessings(along with procreation and dominion/subduing); so is it any wonder the world is in such bad shape?- we are not following one of the original three blessings; so you can say the opposite occurs: a curse.
2. Permission given to Noah- reluctantly(6:12; 9:3)- to consume animal products, because of man's lust and cruelty.
3. The Kosher laws set up to discourage the Israelites from consuming animal products- i.e. "if you lust to consume animal products, then go ahead, but here are a butload of laws you have follow before you consume it"(e.g. draining the blood and salting it implies: you will make the meat less juicy/tasty and make it dry/bitter- i.e. maybe that will FINALLY make you stop eating rotting carcasses).
4. Graves of lust/quails incident(Numb. 11) where the people lusted for(i.e. didn't need) meat and were killed when they were chewing it.
5. Dairy? Don't seeth a kid in its mother's milk, which the rabbis interpreted as requiring the Jew 6(3 for the Sefardim) hours between consuming dairy and meat). This is an implied rebuke: one who consumes meat and dairy is doing something reminiscent of the above abominable pagan practice.
6. The taking the eggs of the mother bird-law. An implied rebuke on egg eating(how much more now that we are "taking" the birds freedom and comfort away from them in factory farms, where the owners are encouraged(i.e. have to for economic reasons) to see the birds as machines.
7. Messianic times will be where the "lamb lies down with the wolf and there will be no more hurting/destruction on My holy mount". Thus we have a bracketing in the Hebrew Scriptures of a vegetarian paradise at the beginning and vegetarian images at the end. The Prophets Joel(4:18) and Amos(9:14) suggest vegetarianism as a symbol for messianic days. This implies that maybe a vegetarian diet will hasten the coming of messianic days.
8. Oral law: A. Talmud: after the destruction of the Temple only someone on a high level of spirituality should consume meat(remember that originally if someone wanted to eat meat they had to bring the animal to the Sanctuary first(later, permission was given- begrudgingly- to eat it after spilling its blood on the ground, implying that life("the life of the soul is the blood") belongs to God and you have no right to take it; but if you [l]ust...
B. The Talmud says that "dominion" only means using animals for work- i.e., since the blessing of dominion/subduing(Gen.ch.1) was given way before Noach was alowed to eat meat(ch.6).
C. There is no blessing for meat/dairy/eggs(you say the same blessing for water). This implies a rebuke.
D. The slaughter is invalid if the slaughterer's knife is dull, or even knicked. Why? Because a dull knife will cause pain to the animal!!! This implies that if the animals suffer(and they suffer horribly for months in factory farms- many go insane) before this time( and a kosher factory farm is just as bad as a non kosher one), it is all the more invalid. Video shows that a kosher slaughter(go to youtube) is not quick and painless: the animal is seen to be conscious for minutes after the slash.
Hi LAGoff,
Can I offer this from the Vegetarian Society of the United Kingdom website (the oldest vegetarian organisation in the world)? –
“A vegetarian is someone living on a diet of grains, pulses, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits with or without the use of dairy products and eggs.
A vegetarian does not eat any meat, poultry, game, fish, shellfish or crustacea, or slaughter by-products.
Types of Vegetarian:
Lacto-ovo-vegetarian. Eats both dairy products and eggs. This is the most common type of vegetarian diet.
Lacto-vegetarian. Eats dairy products but not eggs.
Vegan. Does not eat dairy products, eggs, or any other animal product.”
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/definitions.html
Snoopy.
Can I offer this from the Vegetarian Society of the United Kingdom website (the oldest vegetarian organisation in the world)? –
“A vegetarian is someone living on a diet of grains, pulses, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits with or without the use of dairy products and eggs.
A vegetarian does not eat any meat, poultry, game, fish, shellfish or crustacea, or slaughter by-products.
Types of Vegetarian:
Lacto-ovo-vegetarian. Eats both dairy products and eggs. This is the most common type of vegetarian diet.
Lacto-vegetarian. Eats dairy products but not eggs.
Vegan. Does not eat dairy products, eggs, or any other animal product.”
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/definitions.html
Snoopy.
I’m no expert either
! I don’t say Wiki is the final authority but at least this link shows it’s not such a straightforward topic.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_religion
I have a Sikh friend who has vegetarian food one day every week and (because it is Indian in origin I suspect) vegetarian food is a well established offering (e.g. when I’ve been to Sikh weddings). But I’ve never asked her as to the whys and wherefores.
Similarly a lot of people think Buddhists are or should be vegetarians. However, many are not. In Buddhist countries where monks beg for food they accept and eat all food offered (unless> see article…). I have also read that the Buddha’s favourite meal was pork, and that what killed him was food poisoning from pork.
All sentient beings by living kill, in the act of living. A naked vegan walking across the countryside is killing other beings…
s.
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
yes, why pay 3x when you can pay 5x? and how about organic, too? hehehe. this is a can of worms, it is very hard to eat meat ethically. on the other hand it is very hard to eat anything ethically and it is also very hard to get that amount of protein in an easier form; tofu just won't cut it the same way.wil said:
i don't think so. blood sports are considered a very "roman" sort of thing, because esau is described as doing a lot of hunting, so no deer hunting, bullfighting or gladiators, eating or not. you can *trap*, but it isn't possible to hunt kosher as far as i know, so kosher venison is from domestic herds.
anything relating to the messianic age is aggadic in nature and thus open to a multiplicity of personal interpretation, none of which is truly binding like halakhah is.
it's about mixtures. for us to eat meat, blood must be spilt, therefore it is a "domain of death", whereas milk is a "life" domain food, eggs being parev (neutral). if we are going to take life, it must be done within a positive spiritual context and minimising any harm.LAGoff said:
with respect, this is probably a scientific point of view rather than a halakhic one. and what is the point of a cow if you're not going to eat it or drink its milk? it's not like they can look after themselves exactly. have you ever spent time with a chicken? i mean, i'm not saying that they should be mistreated, but the whole "respect" argument is to my mind rather a red herring.
er... the science says that dairy products are a good way to get protein. babies drink breastmilk, not cow's milk. there are not many human cultures that don't benefit from dairy products, so i would say that the evidence probably isn't on your side. but, as i say, this is a scientific question, rather than a religious one, so perhaps here isn't the place for this discussion?
in the garden of eden, not afterwards. there was no agriculture until adam left either, so by this alone we'd still be picking stuff off the trees. as for "dominion/subduing", that actually means stewardship and responsibility, not "it's yours to ruin if you feel like it."
it's also mixing the life and death domains as previously discussed. and, in fact the correct separation time is 6 hours as per the shulhan arukh, which was originally a sephardi position, albeit most ashkenazim actually keep 3 hours, for reasons which aren't terribly halakhically sound as far as i remember. besides, i follow the baghdadi custom, which is 6 hours.
this is your interpretation. it is more that it is cruel to let the mother bird see that you are taking her chicks away; it's far too similar to the pagan seething-a-kid custom.
the operative word being "maybe".
no it doesn't. if it was less good to eat meat, dairy and eggs, they wouldn't be prescribed for shabbat and festivals. find me a traditional commentator that says this, please.
you need to be aware of the source of these videos - documentation of one breach of the halakhah and the ethics is not proof that this is a) intentional or b) intended. there is a huge interest in this issue and the shechita authorities everywhere are extremely concerned about cruelty; stuff like this makes them look like they're not telling the truth, so it's good that it is exposed if it makes them raise their standards. nonetheless, there are some groups that are determined to outlaw both kashrut and halal slaughter and these groups are not all that concerned for a) the spiritual needs of others or b) stretching the truth if it suits them.
b'shalom
bananabrain
Worms?? They got canned Kosher worms??
Seriously bb, thanx for the responses, I'd like to hear more maybe on another thread about this personally enterning the messianic age...
I should add 3 rabbinical phrases to buttress my position:
1. Bal Tashchit(do not waste). The rabbis infer from the law in the Tora about not cutting down trees when layng siege to a city, that waste of any kind is a sin. The examples the rabbis give(in the Talmud) go to absurd lenghths to illustrate this. Considering that it takes 20 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef and 40 times the amount of water to produce a pound of beef than a pound of grain and the resulting feces, CO2,methane(and need I mention, the cutting down of the rain forest in Brazil) and considering we can get protein from plant sources, this is THE classic definition of waste.
2. Tsaar Ba'alei Chaim(prevention of cruelty to animals). The rabbis of the Talmud inferred this from many places in the Tora, including the law about not yoking a big animal with a small animal(to do work for us, not for us to eat- see above on how the rabbis interpreted "dominion/subduing" animals). The illustrations the rabbis give in the Talmud(and other Talmud era works) is touching in the extreme. I'd be a monkey's uncle if these rabbis came back today in our age of factory farming and blessed this mess.
3. Finally, there's Shmirat Nefesh(watching out for our health). The rabbis take preservation of human life most seriousy of all. If they knew what consuming animal products(especially ones with antibiotics, fattened up, with mercury, lead, PCB's,etc., dung) does to the body...
1. Bal Tashchit(do not waste). The rabbis infer from the law in the Tora about not cutting down trees when layng siege to a city, that waste of any kind is a sin. The examples the rabbis give(in the Talmud) go to absurd lenghths to illustrate this. Considering that it takes 20 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef and 40 times the amount of water to produce a pound of beef than a pound of grain and the resulting feces, CO2,methane(and need I mention, the cutting down of the rain forest in Brazil) and considering we can get protein from plant sources, this is THE classic definition of waste.
2. Tsaar Ba'alei Chaim(prevention of cruelty to animals). The rabbis of the Talmud inferred this from many places in the Tora, including the law about not yoking a big animal with a small animal(to do work for us, not for us to eat- see above on how the rabbis interpreted "dominion/subduing" animals). The illustrations the rabbis give in the Talmud(and other Talmud era works) is touching in the extreme. I'd be a monkey's uncle if these rabbis came back today in our age of factory farming and blessed this mess.
3. Finally, there's Shmirat Nefesh(watching out for our health). The rabbis take preservation of human life most seriousy of all. If they knew what consuming animal products(especially ones with antibiotics, fattened up, with mercury, lead, PCB's,etc., dung) does to the body...
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
i see where you're going with this - but this isn't exactly new thinking. and besides, that's not necessarily an argument for "no meat", just *sustainable* meat. the sages didn't expect people to eat meat every day, but it is a privilege and thus ought to be reserved for Shabbat.
b'shalom
bananabrain
b'shalom
bananabrain
quote: "Video shows that a kosher slaughter(go to youtube) is not quick and painless: the animal is seen to be conscious for minutes after the slash.
you need to be aware of the source of these videos - documentation of one breach of the halakhah and the ethics is not proof that this is a) intentional or b) intended. there is a huge interest in this issue and the shechita authorities everywhere are extremely concerned about cruelty; stuff like this makes them look like they're not telling the truth, so it's good that it is exposed if it makes them raise their standards. nonetheless, there are some groups that are determined to outlaw both kashrut and halal slaughter and these groups are not all that concerned for a) the spiritual needs of others or b) stretching the truth if it suits them.
b'shalom
bananabrain"
Bananabrain,
From my studies, it seems that the kosher authorities are only concerned with proper shechita. Basically, the animals are treated the same as non-kosher animals until the shechita. This is worse than I thought. I thought kosher meant treating them well- or at least a little better- all the way. According to rabbis who are directly involved with the factory farms, they explicitly state that they are only concerned with the schechita.(personally, I'd rather be stunned to death than cut to death).
This is absurd. If the knife has a knick, the shechita is invalid BECAUSE IT MAY CAUSE SUFFERING TO THE ANIMAL; but if the animal is treated for weeks and months and years as a machine, that's ok as long its throat is cut properly!!!! Come on; rachamim b'nai rachamim?
Leonard
you need to be aware of the source of these videos - documentation of one breach of the halakhah and the ethics is not proof that this is a) intentional or b) intended. there is a huge interest in this issue and the shechita authorities everywhere are extremely concerned about cruelty; stuff like this makes them look like they're not telling the truth, so it's good that it is exposed if it makes them raise their standards. nonetheless, there are some groups that are determined to outlaw both kashrut and halal slaughter and these groups are not all that concerned for a) the spiritual needs of others or b) stretching the truth if it suits them.
b'shalom
bananabrain"
Bananabrain,
From my studies, it seems that the kosher authorities are only concerned with proper shechita. Basically, the animals are treated the same as non-kosher animals until the shechita. This is worse than I thought. I thought kosher meant treating them well- or at least a little better- all the way. According to rabbis who are directly involved with the factory farms, they explicitly state that they are only concerned with the schechita.(personally, I'd rather be stunned to death than cut to death).
This is absurd. If the knife has a knick, the shechita is invalid BECAUSE IT MAY CAUSE SUFFERING TO THE ANIMAL; but if the animal is treated for weeks and months and years as a machine, that's ok as long its throat is cut properly!!!! Come on; rachamim b'nai rachamim?
Leonard
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