Race and Religion

[dbanks82]

In my estimation Mormonism takes things too far especially when it depicts Jesus as being blond.

Come on now. I've already corrected you on this point in a different thread, but here we go again. I am sorry but you really should do some research before you make such outlandish statements. Mormons have no doctrine on the physical attributes of Jesus Christ. Yes mormon artists may have depicted him in such a way but this in no way means that to be mormon you must accept the fact that Jesus had blonde hair and blue eyes. There have been mormon artists that have depicted Jesus with a much darker complextion as well. Race unfortuantely has played a major role in religion throughout time. Even upon reading the New Testament Peter had a hard time extending the gospel to the gentiles. I think this is an area that God knows will be hard for us to overcome but he expects us to. It is sad to say but cultural bias often influences the interpretation of religous texts such as the bible. But I also feel that we need to be careful when we read statements of religous figures from the past who may have made racist statements that we are slow to judgment and try to understand the historical context of their statements and what were the cultural norms of that time. I don't mean in any way to excuse racism but a society with racist attitudes takes generations to solve it isn't something that is solved overnight.

 

[mee]

WHAT did Jesus look like?

What color was his hair?

his skin?

his eyes?

How tall was he?

How much did he weigh?

Over the centuries, artistic representations of Jesus have varied from the reasonable to the farfetched. Some have depicted him as manly and vibrant, while others have portrayed him as frail and pallid.


The Bible, however, does not focus attention on Jesus’ appearance.
Rather, Jehovah saw fit to reveal something far more significant ,the kind of person Jesus was.

The Gospel accounts not only report what Jesus said and did but also reveal the depth of feeling and the pattern of thinking behind his words and actions.​

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

Jesus himself said his looks don't matter. Question closed.

 

[TealLeaf]

actually, that's not what the bible does at all. that's what some people seem to think, but the reality of the Torah status of an "'AeVeD" (normally translated as "slave") has virtually nothing in common with the slavery practiced by, say, the greeks, romans, persians, or americans - or still practiced today in some parts of the world. they had *enforceable rights* to such a degree that the sages said in the Mishnah: "he who acquires an aeved has actually acquired a boss".

this just goes to show what the real oxymoron is - it's the adjective "judeo-christian". if you're going to use it, at least let the "judeo-" part of it be based on knowledge not on assumption and ignorance. judaism is not christianity without jesus. it's a completely different integrated system.

b'shalom

bananabrain

I hate to point this out but you didn't address the fact that the Torah does set one people above another. There are the chosen people of God whom you must be born into. Everyone else is not so chosen.

 

[bananabrain]

I hate to point this out but you didn't address the fact that the Torah does set one people above another. There are the chosen people of God whom you must be born into. Everyone else is not so chosen.

you don't understand the significance of the word "chosen". we were chosen to receive and keep the Torah, the 613 commandments. we also had to agree to this, which we did at sinai. where, explicitly, do you think that the Torah is setting up any superiority of jews to anyone else? i am not aware of the Torah "setting one people above another", nor is it what judaism teaches - so do enlighten me if you can show otherwise.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[iBrian]

I hate to point this out but you didn't address the fact that the Torah does set one people above another. There are the chosen people of God whom you must be born into. Everyone else is not so chosen.

It's usually commented that this is a special responsibility, rather than a designation of being special.

For example, a parent has a special responsibility - but a person is not special above others for being a parent.

2c.

 

[TealLeaf]

It's usually commented that this is a special responsibility, rather than a designation of being special.

For example, a parent has a special responsibility - but a person is not special above others for being a parent.

But God is not the child He is the father. So it is a bit like saying that these people are my chosen sons and daughters whom I have given a special truth and the rest are not chosen and I have not given them such truth.

Either way the Jewish religion is still racially exclusive. What is the difference between it and religion that dictates that you must be Caucasian, Aryan or Chinese for that matter?

 

[wil]

But God is not the child He is the father. So it is a bit like saying that these people are my chosen sons and daughters whom I have given a special truth and the rest are not chosen and I have not given them such truth.

Either way the Jewish religion is still racially exclusive. What is the difference between it and religion that dictates that you must be Caucasian, Aryan or Chinese for that matter?

Namaste TL,

BB answered that, They were chosen to keep the Torah, keep the commandments. Is that a task you are ready willing and able to step up to?

Jewish Religion racially exclusive?? You should get out more. Unless you are talking exclusive to the human race, it crosses most ethnicities I know, having met Chinese and Black Jews.

 

[TealLeaf]

They were chosen to keep the Torah, keep the commandments. Is that a task you are ready willing and able to step up to?

It doesn't matter if I were ready to keep the Torah and the commandments. According to Jewish law since I am not Jewish through a maternal lineage I am not one of Gods chosen people.

This law essentially excludes people based on their genetic heritage or racial background. Prejudice is prejudice.

 

[bananabrain]

Either way the Jewish religion is still racially exclusive. What is the difference between it and religion that dictates that you must be Caucasian, Aryan or Chinese for that matter?

the fact that the jewish religion doesn't care about your ethnicity. there are jews of every shade, colour, race and lineage. if you are a non-jewish man and you have children with a jewish woman, those children will be jewish according to the religious criteria. ethnicity and race have absolutely nothing to do with it.

It doesn't matter if I were ready to keep the Torah and the commandments. According to Jewish law since I am not Jewish through a maternal lineage I am not one of Gods chosen people.

but you could become one if you chose to keep the Torah and the commandments - no rabbinic authority would consider your prior ethnic background in this decision.

This law essentially excludes people based on their genetic heritage or racial background. Prejudice is prejudice.

ok, but this isn't prejudice. if you want to be jewish, there are two ways to do it:

1. get born in via your mother (and even then, there are sects and denominations that will accept patrilineality, too)
2. convert

if this is prejudice and exclusion, then the same is true for any national citizenship you care to name. i became british by virtue of being born in britain, not due to any ethnic or ideological criteria. if i hadn't been born in britain, i'd have had to have recourse to such criteria and go through a formal application and naturalisation process. judaism is no different. if anything, it's easier to become jewish than it is to, say, get a green card.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[wil]

It doesn't matter if I were ready to keep the Torah and the commandments. According to Jewish law since I am not Jewish through a maternal lineage I am not one of Gods chosen people.

This law essentially excludes people based on their genetic heritage or racial background. Prejudice is prejudice.

Again BB answered this, and my association with a number of Jews, Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Renewal indicates you are mistaken in this regard.

But beyond that, this is that religions understanding of a law what 3,000 years ago? What I don't understand is how this affects you so strongly today. It sounds like you are whining that you are not one of the chosen, but you are also making out chosen to be different than the way the Jews see it. So if you think the law is wrong and G!d couldn't have made it, then why the gripe? This then applies to 'them' then, not you.

Is this the impetus to start your own religion, so you may be 'chosen'?

And again, there is only one race, the human race.

 

[TealLeaf]

Wil, I believe you are the one who is misinformed. Orthodox Jews abide by the law of the Torah in discriminating against anyone not of a maternal Jewish lineage.

As for me wanting to be chosen. I don't think that is the case. It just bothers me, as I am sure that it has bothered many other people, that this community would not accept me or my children.

Plus I suppose that I am not a big fan of star bellied sneeches of any variety.

As for the thread titled "designing a new religion" my motivation is mainly environmental degradation, over population and the archaic scientific viewpoint of the old established religions.

 

[Nick_A]

It doesn't matter if I were ready to keep the Torah and the commandments. According to Jewish law since I am not Jewish through a maternal lineage I am not one of Gods chosen people.

This law essentially excludes people based on their genetic heritage or racial background. Prejudice is prejudice.

IMO you are right but it is politically correct only to call Christianity exclusive. Frankly I don't see what difference it makes. I have a hard enough time with Christianity so why bother with Judaism. The World hates Christianity so how couldn't it be exclusive? But since it has devolved into Christendom, it really doesn't matter on the surface in societal life. I see it pretty much the same with Judaism as far as the chosen people:

Deuteronomy 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Judasim had it at one time and lost it to secularism -- to idolatry and "experts.". Christianity tried to restore the intent or the law and it also devolved primarily into Christendom and christianity had to go underground to avoid the effects of idolatry and "experts" also known as false prophets.

The real question for me if the "elect" exists that could be chosen? Talk about politically incorrect ideas. This has to be top shelf.

 

[wil]

Wil, I believe you are the one who is misinformed. Orthodox Jews abide by the law of the Torah in discriminating against anyone not of a maternal Jewish lineage.

As for me wanting to be chosen. I don't think that is the case. It just bothers me, as I am sure that it has bothered many other people, that this community would not accept me or my children.

Plus I suppose that I am not a big fan of star bellied sneeches of any variety.

As for the thread titled "designing a new religion" my motivation is mainly environmental degradation, over population and the archaic scientific viewpoint of the old established religions

.I spend time at an Orthodox retreat center each year. I have friends that are Jews and attend a synagogue periodically. I've sat at Seders, in the hut (can't remember the name) for dinner, various weddings, baby naming ceremonies, brisses etc. I've got business partners and am members of associations where a majority of the members are Jews. While I don't lump them all in one basket as they are various ethnicities, occupations, and backgrounds, I can say I admire them for their connection with each other and the way they teach traditions to children.

They've never made me feel 'unchosen' and as I've known a number that have chose to 'convert' (with thier children) I guess we are all so misinformed.

For the life of me if you think this religion has an archaic viewpoint than why the heck does it trouble you so??

 

[bananabrain]

Wil, I believe you are the one who is misinformed. Orthodox Jews abide by the law of the Torah in discriminating against anyone not of a maternal Jewish lineage.

ok, if you won't take it from wil, will you take it from me? i am asking you which law in the Torah "discriminates" against non-jews in any way that does not equate to any other organisation with a price of membership. do the laws of a golf club "discriminate" against non-members? are the laws of a political party requiring you to be a member to vote at its annual conference "discriminatory"? i don't think you understand the meaning of the word.

It just bothers me, as I am sure that it has bothered many other people, that this community would not accept me or my children.

"accept you"? as what, though? as people? certainly we would. as members? certainly, if you converted. i don't really understand what your problem is here.

Plus I suppose that I am not a big fan of star bellied sneeches of any variety.

in this case, if you went through the machine and came out with a star on the other side, that would be the end of the matter. the machine would not be subsequently modified to remove the stars in order to create a further class structure.

As for the thread titled "designing a new religion" my motivation is mainly environmental degradation, over population and the archaic scientific viewpoint of the old established religions.

do you know what the birth rate is among jews, TL? it's far lower than in most groups, except amongst the ultra-orthodox and is actually a demographic issue for us. as for environmental degradation, i direct you to the following sites which make explicit the Torah commitment to preserving and repairing the world we live in:

Jewish Climate Initiative
Hazon :: new vision, inclusive community, outdoor and environmental education

as for archaic scientific viewpoint, have you come across robert winston recently, TL? he's an orthodox jew and doesn't seem to have a problem with science, being a leading medical expert on fertility... as for the number of orthodox jewish scientists, just go to the website of the second largest university in israel: Bar-Ilan University - BIU - it's a religious university with a world-class science faculty, so don't be so silly.

IMO you are right but it is politically correct only to call Christianity exclusive.

ah, nick, never one to let a daft comment go unsupported, eh? as stated above, the idea that judaism is exclusive is quite simply ignorant. yes, there is a price to membership. yes, a lot is demanded of us. yes, there are chauvinists in every group but, no, that is not what is required of us, as the sages say: "the righteous of all nations shall have a portion in the World to Come" - in other words, you don't have to be jewish to be a good person. this, incidentally, is in sharp distinction to all universalist religions. being jewish is just being chosen - or choosing - to be judged by a more stringent set of standards. i'm not even going to dignify your usual diatribles about idolatry and experts with a response, as i have already pointed out at length how utterly misinformed you are and, what is worse, pigheaded about your refusal to understand how we see things, preferring instead to stick with what you have decided is true in spite of all evidence to the contrary. i hope TL is more sensible.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

But beyond that, this is that religions understanding of a law what 3,000 years ago?

It seems more likely that back then it was a matter of absorption into the culture, naturalization if you will.

 

[iBrian]

It just bothers me, as I am sure that it has bothered many other people, that this community would not accept me or my children.

Well, if not being required to follow the hundreds of prescriptions in the Torah somehow bothers you, then there's nothing to stop you having a go anyway.

 

[Nick_A]

BB

ah, nick, never one to let a daft comment go unsupported, eh? as stated above, the idea that judaism is exclusive is quite simply ignorant. yes, there is a price to membership. yes, a lot is demanded of us. yes, there are chauvinists in every group but, no, that is not what is required of us, as the sages say: "the righteous of all nations shall have a portion in the World to Come" - in other words, you don't have to be jewish to be a good person. this, incidentally, is in sharp distinction to all universalist religions. being jewish is just being chosen - or choosing - to be judged by a more stringent set of standards. i'm not even going to dignify your usual diatribles about idolatry and experts with a response, as i have already pointed out at length how utterly misinformed you are and, what is worse, pigheaded about your refusal to understand how we see things, preferring instead to stick with what you have decided is true in spite of all evidence to the contrary. i hope TL is more sensible.

Interesting how "righteous" devolves into negative expressions of righteous indignation.

in other words, you don't have to be jewish to be a good person. this, incidentally, is in sharp distinction to all universalist religions. being jewish is just being chosen - or choosing - to be judged by a more stringent set of standards.

If I ever had any attraction to secularism, you've successfully postponed it for who knows how long. Yes secularism judges by its subjective standards of "good person" and lies its way around judgments to heighten prestige.

Deuteronomy 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

From the transcendent perspective, these two passages indicate the possibility of awakening to our potential. How to judge a reactive creature in Plato's Cave? Is there any sense in judgments concerning people in Plato's Cave other than by subjective cave standards?

"Special people unto himself" doesn't mean being proud of either following some rules or pretending to for the sake of BSing others especially the young. It means regaining a quality of "being" we've lost as fallen creatures. We've come to glorify the fall rather then experiencing our nothingness in respect to the potential of our being.

Judaism is exclusive in its path and Christianity is exclusive on its path. Secularism can't accept this since it thrives on right and wrong, better or worse. That is why secular Interfaith searches for the lies that ease the tension. However, transcendent Interfaith respects differences and seeks them out especially as doorways to higher understanding. As a secularist you cannot see the value of how people like Simone understand this:

"When a contradiction is impossible to resolve except by a lie, then we know that it is really a door". ... Simone Weil

I value the contradiction. Secularism either seeks to destroy over it for the sake of prestige or lie about it and pretend it doesn't exist. I can appreciate what is meant by chosen people in the context of paths leading towards human transcendent potential while you devolve it into a secular societal value of following rules.

To each his own.

 

[TealLeaf]

Well, if not being required to follow the hundreds of prescriptions in the Torah somehow bothers you, then there's nothing to stop you having a go anyway.

Sure there is. My children and I are not of a Jewish genetic lineage.

Can someone please tell me where it is written and under what authority the law of the Torah that requires a person to have a genetic maternal Jewish lineage in order to be considered Jewish has been rejected and abolished?

 

[lunamoth]

Sure there is. My children and I are not of a Jewish genetic lineage.

Can someone please tell me where it is written and under what authority the law of the Torah that requires a person to have a genetic maternal Jewish lineage in order to be considered Jewish has been rejected and abolished?

Several people here have said that it is possible to convert to Judaism. Why do you not believe them?