Divine Intervention v. Divine Inspiration

"Do you think there is any level of determinism in our lives?"

--> We ARE free to make decisions, and we will suffer from bad decisions. But psychics are able to predict what we will do. It is a dilemma our finite minds cannot understand.
 
We ARE free to make decisions, and we will suffer from bad decisions. But psychics are able to predict what we will do.

Nick, you're trying to have the best of both worlds with your argument. If your future actions can be accurately predicted by a psychic/God/whomever, then you have only the illusion of choice.
 
this panentheist nonanthrpomprhictheistic christian likes it.

Wil I disagree that everything is divine inspiration but I really dig your attitude towards life and religion!
 
IG,

Yes, I have the best of both worlds, and I greedily accept them!

It is a fascinating idea, that we only have an illusion of choice. But we DO have free choice and we WILL suffer from bad decisions. When I hit my thumb with a hammer, I know my thumb is only an illusion, I know the hammer is only an illusion, but it still hurts! There must be some benefit to already knowing what we will do but letting us go ahead and do it anyway (and letting us suffer from our mistakes). Whatever this benefit is, it justifies the system being set up the way it is.

This bring us to the inevtiable question: If "God created us" but He already knows what we are going to do ahead of time, why did He even bother to "create" us? The answer is, we just don't know.
 
This bring us to the inevtiable question: If "God created us" but He already knows what we are going to do ahead of time, why did He even bother to "create" us? The answer is, we just don't know.

I'm also fascinated by this question. People following religion can at times brag that they have a purpose for their existence. But when you pull back to what you just said and it is evident that many don't know what the purpose is because it's beyond human understanding. There are of course many religions that understand their purpose fully.

I also want to understand different aspects of the difference between free will and the illusion of free will. Unless you believe that you have a foolproof way to see the path of the future, dose the illusion of free will affect us differently than proper free will?
 
Tea,

Everything of this physical world is an illusion. There is no reason to expect free will to be 'more' of an illusion than everything else.

Also, we think we are 'free' to do bad things. We are not. Our ability to think we can do bad things is an ability that has been artificially created for us, and does not really 'exist.'
 
Nick,

But for us who do not believe this is all an illusion. I myself am a spiritual desert in the sense that I do not believe in anything other than the area of science. That's not to say that I know there isn't anything more, but I believe what I believe for the moment.

I'm playing with the idea that chaos is a label for a pattern we do not understand, but everything is affected by a number of forces that determine cause and effect of everything, like one big chain reaction. That means, that if you are aware of every force and speck of matter you can predict how it all will unfold into infinity. If the human mind is the product of electrical and chemical impulses they are also, in theory, predictable. There are three problems with being able to predict anything. First, everything affect everything else in the long run, even just a little. Second, understanding and perceiving every possible force that exist. Thirdly, the ability for one being to process the two previous points.
Based on what I know about the natural world, these three points are impossibilities in themselves. But theoretically, everything follows a predictable pattern.
 
But we DO have free choice and we WILL suffer from bad decisions.

I'm not necessarily arguing that we don't have free choice. What I am arguing in this instance is that IF you indeed have free will then no one (God, physic or otherwise) can predict your future. Conversely, if someone can predict your future then you don't truly have free will.

You can have free will, or you can have predeterminism/fatalism (prediction of your future), or you can have neither. But you can't have both.
 
IG,

The belief that the natural order of things is to go from chaos to an orderly universe is the same as thinking that an explosion in a print shop could result in an unabridged dictionary. No, there must be another reason why the universe is becoming more orderly.

Do you think we have free will? If so, how can psychics predict the future?
 
"Do you think there is any level of determinism in our lives?"

--> We ARE free to make decisions, and we will suffer from bad decisions. But psychics are able to predict what we will do. It is a dilemma our finite minds cannot understand.
We are not punished for our sins but by them.

Wil I disagree that everything is divine inspiration but I really dig your attitude towards life and religion!
Desire..... de sire.....of the father....it is is all of the father... how much who knows.... yes we can choose to close the curtain...but then we are simply a negative example for all to see...its all good.
IG,

Yes, I have the best of both worlds, and I greedily accept them!
Greedily? Greedily accept that which is willingly provided? We live in an abundant multiverse it is only upto us to wake up....Moses shook us, Krishna shook us, Lau Tzu shook us, Jesus shook us as did Mohamed, Bahaulla, Abraham, Neale Donald Walsch, Tich Nhat Hanh, Paramahansa Yogananda, MLK, Ghandi, and yes Hitler and Dawkins and Darwin.....wake up....what is it going to take?
You can have free will, or you can have predeterminism/fatalism (prediction of your future), or you can have neither. But you can't have both.
I predict you are going to die. Until then, I predict you will do whatever you choose, and seemingly according to what I understand you to be saying, believe you can't.
 
IowaGuy said:
You can have free will, or you can have predeterminism/fatalism (prediction of your future), or you can have neither. But you can't have both.
What about free will on the small detailed items but determinism on the big picture or cumulative aggregate?
 
"Hard determinism" (in the Calvinist or Newtonian sense of "100% True") does not allow the mixture of interminism. "Soft determinism" (like it is not determined the moment I meet a beautiful female that it will lead to my divorce because of an affair, but add to that the fact that we were both sloshed, at a Grateful Dead concert, and I did not have anyplace to crash so I took her up on her offer of the couch) allows that the additional events (like the drinking, the concert .....) narrow down (cause) what the results will be. Yes, that can work with indeterminism. But just be careful to remember that soft determinism is not Calvinist Predestination or Newtonian Clockworks.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia -- radarmark
 
The belief that the natural order of things is to go from chaos to an orderly universe......there must be another reason why the universe is becoming more orderly.

Nick, are you familiar with the Second Law of Thermodynamics? It states the opposite, that the universe is becoming more disorderly (increased entropy) over time.


how can psychics predict the future?
Well, I don't have any evidence saying they can. I'm familiar with your views on psychics so you and I will probably have to agree to disagree on this one. The fact that I don't believe in prederminism/fatalism (except for death and taxes :)) means it doesn't constrain my rational arguments on free will.

If you want to believe both in free will and determinism/fatalism you'll have to sort that one out on your own but don't look to reason for an answer because it's not a logical argument.
 
This bring us to the inevtiable question: If "God created us" but He already knows what we are going to do ahead of time, why did He even bother to "create" us?

This is the main reason I abandoned my old church's views of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god. Why would such a god create someone he knew was going to burn in hell? (or kill millions of Jews, etc). I don't believe in a god such as you describe so can't answer your question.

Actually, I'm surprised how many people I meet in the real world that feel very strongly about their particular religious views but haven't given much thought to determinism/free will. For me it's been one of the biggest impacts on my belief system...
 
This is the main reason I abandoned my old church's views of an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god. Why would such a god create someone he knew was going to burn in hell? (or kill millions of Jews, etc). I don't believe in a god such as you describe so can't answer your question.

Actually, I'm surprised how many people I meet in the real world that feel very strongly about their particular religious views but haven't given much thought to determinism/free will. For me it's been one of the biggest impacts on my belief system...
The belief in a "omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god" doesn't require a belief that anyone burn in hell.
 
IG, Do you think we have free will?

Here are some examples that I like to ponder:

Does a kid born in the slums of Mexico City who can't read or write “choose” to grow up to be a beggar like his parents? Is this free will or determinism?

Do you think someone born in rural Africa “chooses” their career? Is this free will or determinism?

Does the daughter of a Southern Baptist preacher “choose” her religion? Is this free will or determinism?

Did the famous “Little Albert” in B.F. Skinner’s experiments “choose” to be afraid of the white rat? Is this free will or determinism?

Does the son of two doctors “choose” to go to college?

I believe more in determinism than free will. However, I don’t believe in predeterminism/fatalism (that God has a destiny for us, or somehow our future can be predicted). For me determinism is a result of two things: nature (the “hand that we are dealt in life," mostly genetics) and nuture (environmental factors throughout our life such as the culture we're born into, socioeconomic status of our family, if/where we go to college, dramatic events that impact our lives, etc). Psychologists seem to go back and forth on whether we’re more influenced by nature or nuture (studies of identical/fraternal twins raised in similar/different environments are some of the most convincing examples). I’m satisfied knowing that I’m influenced by some nature and some nurture, maybe 50/50.


What about free will on the small detailed items but determinism on the big picture or cumulative aggregate?

I agree, this is how I see the world. Big picture determinism. Little details (what to have for dinner, which equidistant route to take to work, what shirt to wear today, etc) free choice.

However, I do think that the illusion of free will is very important in order for society to function with law and order. We would have quite the moral hazard if members of society weren’t held accountable for their actions. So when my daughter asks me the question "free will or determinism" my answer is "free will" :)

 
hmmmm

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IG,
 
You asked,
 
"…are you familiar with the Second Law of Thermodynamics? It states the opposite, that the universe is becoming more disorderly (increased entropy) over time."
 
--> As I look at galaxies and solar systems develop, I can see very organized systems that grew out of practically nothing. If the law of entropy were true, galaxies and solar systems would not exist.

"Why would such a god create someone he knew was going to burn in hell? (or kill millions of Jews, etc)."
 
--> The Bible originally said hell was temporary not eternal. And someone who kills millions of people will pay for each and every life he/she took. Once the karmic debt is paid off (no matter now long it takes) that person can then start making progress along the path again. That’s pretty fair to me.
 
"Does a kid born in the slums of Mexico City who can't read or write "choose" to grow up to be a beggar like his parents? Is this free will or determinism?"
 
--> The choosing of parents is a very complicated topic. Most people choose parents for a variety of reasons.
 
"Do you think someone born in rural Africa "chooses" their career?"
 
--> Yes.
 
"Is this free will or determinism?"
 
--> Free will, as much as their karma will allow. (There is also the problem of not enough "rich baby-bodies" available.)

"I’m satisfied knowing that I’m influenced by some nature and some nurture, maybe 50/50."
 
--> I add a third factor, karma.
 
I do not think there is a difference at all, inspiration is merely an intervention presented as a choice. There is no choice, how you proceed has already been decided, but none the less the presentation is still important for a purpose.

I recall, maybe only a few days after I accepted God, I was going to the store for groceries. On the way, something compelled me to stop and watch a certain situation in a neighborhood. A dog had escaped from a house, and young girl was trying to catch it again. I was urged to dive for the dog as it was beside me, and then instructed to advise the girl to push the dog away from the main road in the pursuit - I obeyed neither. I continued to watch, not moving at all, the dog ran towards the main road and I heard it get hit and its whine. I assume the dog had to be put down, I have not been able to inquire further...

Now, this taught me a great lesson - we must listen to our intuition, for we never know the ramifications. If I had listened, however, would I know this lesson today? Would I be aware that intuition is merely the voice of God directing us? It is a harsh way to make a point, but the point was made loud and clear. I consider the intuition to be divine inspiration, but the lesson was still an intervention. There was no choice here, although I was inspired to intervene, it is not possible that it could have played out another way - existence doesn't make mistakes. The lesson is for another purpose - by obeying thereafter I have been led to enlightenment - so it is erroneous to separate the two.
 
I am sorry, this kind of strong determinism is quite unlikely. If everything "has already been determined" why not lapse into destructive (and enjoyable) behavior? Can we say (as may did of Calvin) "cop out"? One is allowed to believe this unscientific train of thought (quantum theory is strewn with the corpses of determninistic theories) and take comfort in it. But when it gets down to the two (for me) crucial questions, the "hard question of qualia" and "the sting of Death" I experience freedom (albeit limited). I could have choden not to reply to this, but I could not resist.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia--Radarmark
 
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