Divine Intervention v. Divine Inspiration

[IowaGuy]

Free will, as much as their karma will allow.

Does belief in karma/rebirth logically require belief in free will?

Nick: Just to clarify, you think a beggar child in the slums of Mexico City (the poorest place I have personally seen on this planet), who can't read or write because instead of going to school he had to beg to help support his family; you think his life's path will be determined by free will and not determinism?

 

[wil]

I believe it will.

He has choices, whether he makes them or not will be his choice, his life is not predetermined, not by genetics, not by environment.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

IG,
　
You asked,
　
"Does belief in karma/rebirth logically require belief in free will?"
　
--> Yes, it does. Without the idea of free will, karma has no meaning.
　
"…you think his life's path will be determined by free will and not determinism?"
　
--> Let’s define determinism. It is the idea that his life was decided by God before he was born, and he has no choice but to live out his the life that God has predestined for him. No, I do not believe such a thing happens. To answer your question, yes I think the majority of people making such a choice are making it as a free-will choice (as mind-boggling as it seems).
　
I believe there are several factors which cause a person to choose such a life. One is that some of these people are what are called ‘young souls.’ Their level of intellectual sophistication and wisdom is low. For such people, choosing such a lifestyle may an acceptable choice. I am NOT saying that all desperately poor peasants are young souls. There are some very intelligent people who are obviously old souls that came out of such ghettos. But I think that being a young/old soul plays a big factor here. (This is why it is our job as ‘older souls’ to help these people accelerate not only their progress along the path, but to also accelerate their progress from being a young soul to an old soul.)
　
There is another issue with young souls. They may have taken all of their previous incarnations in that slum and/or in that family. In such cases, this type of life is the only type of life they have ever known, it is familiar to them, and they stick with what is familiar. I think this is a huge part of why people choose such a birth.
　
There is also the issue of karma. (1) Some of these people may have chosen such a harsh life because they want to burn off a large amount of bad karma in a very short time.
　
(2) There also the issue of generic karma. Such a person may have been forced into such a horrible existence because they are being forced to burn off some bad karma. Karma never forgets, and sooner or later we will be forced into burning it off if we do not take care of it sooner (unless they finally fall into something called Avichi, which is similar to hell).
　
Many people also assume that (2) is more common than (1). It is not, (1) is more common. People think we should be vindictive towards people who are burning off a large piece of bad karma because they were ‘really bad’ in a previous life. This is often not true. Many people actually volunteer to take such a difficult life. So we should not be vindictive towards such people, we should congratulate them for volunteering to take such a difficult life.
　
This also brings up the subject of Avichi (which sounds like hell but it is not). When people keep putting off and putting off the burning of bad karma over many lifetimes, they will eventually fall into Avichi, which is just as terrible as the Christians make it sound (although the Christian idea of hell and Avichi are completely different, and I accuse Christianity of intentionally confusing the two). But Avichi/hell is an entirely different topic, so any discussion on Avichi/hell should be continued in a different thread.


~~~
　
Now it’s your turn. Do you think his life's path will be determined by free will, karma, or determinism?

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

As I see it the Divine has a hand in EVERYTHING.

Not that heavy a hand, but is there.

i thought that you did not believe in an anthropomorphic G!d, yet you say that G!d has a HAND ?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

IG,

Here is an example which brings more clarity to your question. You have probably heard of Jared Lee Loughner, who shot and killed six people and wounded 14 other people, including U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

Jared Lee Loughner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did ‘God know’ that Jared would shoot those people? Yes, He ‘did.’

Did Jared shoot those people of his own free will? Yes, he did. Will Jared ‘be punished’ (have to burn off the bad karma) for what he did? Yes, he will. Determinism says Jared was only doing what ‘God had in store for him,’ and such determinism does not happen.

But I am also sure that Jared grew up in a dysfunctional family (bad parents, most likely a bad father), I am sure that his father has earned some bad karma for what happened. Who knows, perhaps even Jared's grandfather is karmically guilty of planting seeds of dysfunctionality in Jared's childhood home. How much of this is due to Jared s free will? How much of this is due to Jared growing up in a horribly dysfunctional family, in which case Jared is partially innocent? I am convinced this will all be sorted out eventually, with everyone taking on their appropriate share of bad karma. Jared himself may end up taking on less bad karma than we think -- to the extent that Jared did not shoot of them of his own free will but was a victim of growing up in a horribly dysfunctional family, he is not guilty of doing this of his own free will, and will accumulate bad karma only so much as he is personally guilty of.

 

[donnann]

Isnt the highest purpose of all living beings to love and be loved?

 

[donnann]

One more point. Doesnt it seem to you that bad things occur from a person suffering from a lack or love and in turn commits acts based on this lack? Didnt Jesus say to love one another? Maybe that is the cure.

 

[wil]

i thought that you did not believe in an anthropomorphic G!d, yet you say that G!d has a HAND ?

Dang, you caught me.

No I don't believe in the larger than life humanized anthropomorphic old white man.... But I do believe in the hand of G!d

G!d is the sound of one hand clapping, cheering you on to be your best.

the hand will wack you up the side of the head as you make mistakes...but the hand is not intervening, it is on a swing, and when you do something stupid you yourself toss out the swing to wack yourself

yes spirit is there in the light when we are in our darkest hour offering a hand and a choice

phooey....yes I succumb to metaphor as well, nice 'catch' (pun intended)

Did ‘God know’ that Jared would shoot those people? Yes, He ‘did.’

I don't buy it. G!d doesn't know, G!d is knowing....

Isnt the highest purpose of all living beings to love and be loved?

yee haw, and yes.

One more point. Doesnt it seem to you that bad things occur from a person suffering from a lack or love and in turn commits acts based on this lack? Didnt Jesus say to love one another? Maybe that is the cure.

Yes again, when we realize that those acting out, are actually crying out for love. When we realize that people steal and abuse because they have not enough love and are trying to replace that lack with very weak subsitutes like material goods or power over others...

love cures all....

 

[donnann]

Dang, you caught me.

No I don't believe in the larger than life humanized anthropomorphic old white man.... But I do believe in the hand of G!d

G!d is the sound of one hand clapping, cheering you on to be your best.

the hand will wack you up the side of the head as you make mistakes...but the hand is not intervening, it is on a swing, and when you do something stupid you yourself toss out the swing to wack yourself

yes spirit is there in the light when we are in our darkest hour offering a hand and a choice

phooey....yes I succumb to metaphor as well, nice 'catch' (pun intended)

I don't buy it. G!d doesn't know, G!d is knowing....

yee haw, and yes.

Yes again, when we realize that those acting out, are actually crying out for love. When we realize that people steal and abuse because they have not enough love and are trying to replace that lack with very weak subsitutes like material goods or power over others...

love cures all....

To me its more like a tap on the shoulder

 

[donnann]

Dang, you caught me.

No I don't believe in the larger than life humanized anthropomorphic old white man.... But I do believe in the hand of G!d

G!d is the sound of one hand clapping, cheering you on to be your best.

the hand will wack you up the side of the head as you make mistakes...but the hand is not intervening, it is on a swing, and when you do something stupid you yourself toss out the swing to wack yourself

yes spirit is there in the light when we are in our darkest hour offering a hand and a choice

phooey....yes I succumb to metaphor as well, nice 'catch' (pun intended)

I don't buy it. G!d doesn't know, G!d is knowing....

yee haw, and yes.

Yes again, when we realize that those acting out, are actually crying out for love. When we realize that people steal and abuse because they have not enough love and are trying to replace that lack with very weak subsitutes like material goods or power over others...

love cures all....

I agree but the bad thing about that is I believe that people can infect other people with those feelings which is why you have say gangs which is a way of them trying to attain love or what they THINK is love by indoctrination of others into that group and the sad thing is that those they indoctrinate may not have been suffering from a lack of love but are pulled into those feelings and emotions by the person or people trying to attain their devotion to substitute for the love they lacked.

 

[IowaGuy]

Did ‘God know’ that Jared would shoot those people? Yes, He ‘did.’

Do you think everything in life "happens for a reason"? Do you believe that this shooting was part of "God's plan"?

How could God know that Jared would shoot those people (forseeing the future) but yet you don't believe that Jared was predetermined to shoot them? If God knew it would happen then did Jared really have a chance not to do it? Wouldn't God not have known what would happen if Jared truly had free will?

When you watch a movie do the actors have free will? If God can tell the future isn't it like him watching a movie of our lives before it happens?

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —
Just popping by, and thought I'd drop in.

Divine Intervention v. Divine Inspiration
is it just me, or is there a difference here?

This is still an open topic in our theology, one that my old course director pointed out was in need of a fresh look. We treat it under the heading of 'revelation' and 'inspiration' — what are they, and when is something one and not the other?

As I see it the Divine has a hand in EVERYTHING.

Well, as you can guess, we disagree on this point — I can think of some really horrible things man does that the Divine has nothing at all to do with. As the Lutheran theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer asked, where was Christ at Auschwitz?

I don't see the will of God in the loading of the cattle trucks, although, God forgive us, there's more than a few who reckoned the Shoah was God's revenge. Quite how a Christian can figure that eludes me ...

In a lot of ways I see the bible inspired by G!d, but written by man.

This is our doctrine, too.

This is akin to me to speaking quantum physics to a three year old and having them use crayons to carry save the knowledge for the next 2,000 years and despite having new information, refusing to go back and correct it.

Well, I could argue a number of points there:
I don't think it is anywhere near as difficult as quantum physics. And I don't think God could make the message any simpler, any plainer:
Love God.
Love your neighbour.
And the rest, as they say, will look after itself.

Easy to say. Difficult to do.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[wil]

And I don't think God could make the message any simpler, any plainer:
Love God.
Love your neighbour.
And the rest, as they say, will look after itself.

Easy to say. Difficult to do.

God bless,

Thomas

hee hee....glad to see you pull up a seat around the fire, love ya brother!

Ya know. If that was it, if that was the billboard....no probs.

But the problem is Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy.......Revelation.

If we didn't have Jonah getting swallowed by a big fish for three days, or a 10k old earth and 400 year old men and stoning adulters and non believers....

If all we had was the Shema, and love your neighbor, we could have sermons around the world on these topics.....and eliminate 99.999999% of the arguements....

But we don't, we've got this pesky bible, full of mythology, parables, metaphor, mistranslations, stories, hyperbole.....this tis the crux of the bisquit.

So you think G!d don't have a hand in any other atrocities other than this one?

 

[Lunitik]

I am sorry, this kind of strong determinism is quite unlikely. If everything "has already been determined" why not lapse into destructive (and enjoyable) behavior? Can we say (as may did of Calvin) "cop out"? One is allowed to believe this unscientific train of thought (quantum theory is strewn with the corpses of determninistic theories) and take comfort in it. But when it gets down to the two (for me) crucial questions, the "hard question of qualia" and "the sting of Death" I experience freedom (albeit limited). I could have choden not to reply to this, but I could not resist.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia--Radarmark

Then the perception of choice was illusive only.

 

[IowaGuy]

Hi Wil —
And I don't think God could make the message any simpler, any plainer:
Love God.
Love your neighbour.
And the rest, as they say, will look after itself.

And no mention of heaven & hell? There would be a lot more followers of Christianity if it were truly as simple as "Love "G!d," Love your neighbour;" which is one of the main messages that many non-Christians like myself take away from the bible

 

[radarmark]

Illusion is a choice, the choice of the solopist.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia. Radarmark

 

[Nick the Pilot]

IG,
　
You asked,
　
"Do you think everything in life "happens for a reason"?"
　
--> Yes.
　
"Do you believe that this shooting was part of "God's plan"?"
　
--> Yes, in the sense that Jared was free to choose between good and evil. (Jared chose evil.) The system is set up so that there is absolutely no pressure for us to choose good over evil — we must freely choose it for ourselves. (As a matter of fact, it is much easier for us to chose evil than good, which is how it should be.) This is why the system seems so unfair, but it is completely fair. All unfairness here on earth can be compensated for in the afterlife, and upon our return into a subsequent reincarnation.
　
"How could God know that Jared would shoot those people (forseeing the future) but yet you don't believe that Jared was predetermined to shoot them?"
　
--> It is said that down here on earth, time is linear, having a past, present, and future. But at higher levels of consciousness, time is more fluid. I do not think Jared was predestined to shoot those people, he chose to do it, and he will enter into Avichi (similar to hell) for what he did. (And no appealing to a deity for the forgiveness of his 'sin' will do him any good.)
　
"If God knew it would happen then did Jared really have a chance not to do it?"
　
--> Yes, Jared had a chance.
　
"Wouldn't God not have known what would happen if Jared truly had free will?"
　
--> Yes, God ‘knew,’ yet Jared was not predestined to do it. This is the paradox that the finite human mind cannot understand.
　
"If God can tell the future isn't it like him watching a movie of our lives before it happens?"
　
--> Yes, it is. And the day will come when we will be able to do the same thing. (Good psychics here on earth already can.)

 

[wil]

And no mention of heaven & hell? There would be a lot more followers of Christianity if it were truly as simple as "Love "G!d," Love your neighbour;" which is one of the main messages that many non-Christians like myself take away from the bible

You have some sort of affinity to heaven and hell?

IG,
　
You asked,
　
"Do you think everything in life "happens for a reason"?"
　
--> Yes.
　
"Do you believe that this shooting was part of "God's plan"?"
　
--> Yes, in the sense that Jared was free to choose between good and evil. (Jared chose evil.)　
--> Yes, God ‘knew,’ yet Jared was not predestined to do it. This is the paradox that the finite human mind cannot understand.
　
"If God can tell the future isn't it like him watching a movie of our lives before it happens?"
　
--> Yes, it is. And the day will come when we will be able to do the same thing. (Good psychics here on earth already can.)

I'm good for the beginning, but taper off at the end.

I believe we do have a destiny...whether it happens in this lifetime or the next, in this plane of existence or the next....that is what is not known.

But watching a movie knowing what happens? Not to me, more like watching comedia del arte....you know where the play is going, you know where the play will end, you know bits of the middle but the players and the audience are different every time....the improv changes with the reactions and interaction...

Life is improv....we've got a very loose script and lots of choices, twists and turns on the journey...

Does everything happen for a reason? Most definitely.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

I agree we all have a destiny. But it is up to us to rise up to the challenge of fulfilling our destiny, or fall by the wayside in failure. I remember hearing a very good psychic tell me what happened to Saddam Hussein, ex-president of Iraq, when he was judged in the afterlife. The psychic said that Hussein had promised to be a great president and promised to lead Iraq into becoming a great nation, but when he took office, he slipped into a great deal of negativity and caused Iraq a lot of trouble. (He had made this pledge before he was born, when he chose his destiny to be president of Iraq.) I also heard his afterlife judgement was particularly harsh because he promised before he was born to be a good president and he wasn't.

 

[IowaGuy]

You have some sort of affinity to heaven and hell?

I don't personally believe in eternal heaven or hell. But the "carrot" of eternal heaven and the "stick" of eternal hell seem to be the main motivators for modern-day, mainstream Christianity. Almost seems like a marketing plan

I personally believe this world would be better served if the teaching of heaven/hell were omitted from Christianity. Followers of Jesus could then focus on truly helping others instead of being distracted with all this trying to get to heaven nonsense.

Next time you listen to Christian talk radio or a Sunday sermon, count how many times you hear the following words: "eternal" "heaven" "hell" or "saved", none of which matter in the present moment; and none of which help any of our fellow humans on this planet.