What if?

Dream

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Hypothetical, but realistic situation requiring your decision. What should you do?

You have lots of responsibility on your shoulders, because you are a respected Muslim cleric in the aftermath of global disaster! A large meteor has destroyed Washington DC, USA (big surprise!) and has caused terrible destruction making 1/2 of the world uninhabitable for the next 15 years. You and fellow clerics are at a secret meeting with the surviving religious leaders and heads of state, because a lot of Christians and Muslims are going to be living close together very, very soon. (uh-oh!) You've got to figure out how this is going to work, and fast. At hand is either peace or war, and the Catholic bishops are needed to make peace happen. To do it they feel they must have legal primacy over Christianity for at least the next 15 years, so they make it a written stipulation of cooperation. Your part is to accept that Christianity is what they say it is. Other than that, they have no other requests or capitulations. Share food, share everything. Its just for 15 years. Can you give them a yes?
 
Hate to step on toes here, but can't help myself.

A. Dream, how do you think this would occur if the roles were reversed, Pope accept Islam to feed your flock?

B. Real Hypothetical...agree or starve?? If so in my opinion those Bishops have no understanding of Christ's teachings.

C. Muslims and Christians live side by side in cooperation in much of the world.
 
I`d try to shoot down people who evacuated up in space stations :D while they look down at us, watching what we`re gonna do next.

Or who ever shows up in a UFO claiming to be space aliens :D

TK
 
wil said:
Hate to step on toes here, but can't help myself.

A. Dream, how do you think this would occur if the roles were reversed, Pope accept Islam to feed your flock?

B. Real Hypothetical...agree or starve?? If so in my opinion those Bishops have no understanding of Christ's teachings.

C. Muslims and Christians live side by side in cooperation in much of the world.
Ow, my toes!

A. Not everything has a reverse, and this might not. I'd say in reverse its more like asking the Christian churches to officially recognize a particular cleric as the official rep for all Muslims everywhere. Would they face a moral dilemma in that scenario, or would they easily point and choose?

B. Its hypothetical. Not really suggesting Bishops are going to do that.

C. Well, yes; but this is different. We're talking about mass migrations of Christians who don't know anything about Islam, but that is not what I meant to emphasize. This is about interfaith decision making - namely would Islam ever, given such a choice, endorse a particular version of Christianity over another. Nobody has to answer me, but it is a question already being discussed in real life at interfaith summits.
 
Hypothetical, but realistic situation requiring your decision. What should you do?

You have lots of responsibility on your shoulders, because you are a respected Muslim cleric in the aftermath of global disaster! A large meteor has destroyed Washington DC, USA (big surprise!) and has caused terrible destruction making 1/2 of the world uninhabitable for the next 15 years. You and fellow clerics are at a secret meeting with the surviving religious leaders and heads of state, because a lot of Christians and Muslims are going to be living close together very, very soon. (uh-oh!) You've got to figure out how this is going to work, and fast. At hand is either peace or war, and the Catholic bishops are needed to make peace happen. To do it they feel they must have legal primacy over Christianity for at least the next 15 years, so they make it a written stipulation of cooperation. Your part is to accept that Christianity is what they say it is. Other than that, they have no other requests or capitulations. Share food, share everything. Its just for 15 years. Can you give them a yes?

I don't get it... :confused: Why would this be a problem?
They are not forcing us to believe in the trinity.
They are just stating that they believe in it (right?)
 
c0de said:
I don't get it... :confused: Why would this be a problem?
They are not forcing us to believe in the trinity.
They are just stating that they believe in it (right?)
I am thinking about something else -- the Vatican claim to primacy over all of Christendom, which has a political side. It does not imply Muslims believe in trinity, but it does affect Islam. You've said elsewhere that trinity is the major obstacle to rational discussion with Christians. That is because trinity is the seal of the Vatican's authority over Christians and so is beyond rational objection. That authority, that primacy is political, requiring submission to someone who tells the Christian what to believe. Endorsing primacy doesn't require Muslims to be Christians, just to endorse the authority of the Vatican over all Christians. When I read that there is an official interfaith dialogue between the Vatican and Muslim nations, I note that primacy of the Vatican is an issue on the table. Primacy means 'You recognize we are what defines Christianity', not just 'This is what we believe'. Politics you didn't even notice!

YEARENDER: Pope promotes interfaith dialogue, but Christians divided

The dialogues between Benedict and leaders like Ali Khamenei have not gone well. Suppose things improve, or suppose that Benedict had not publicly offended them. Would they endorse the Vatican's primacy?
 
I don't get it... :confused: Why would this be a problem?
They are not forcing us to believe in the trinity.
They are just stating that they believe in it (right?)
Is there a centralized authority within Islam that defines what Islam is? Would Muslims accept such a centralized authority? Would the endorsement of a centralized authority in Christianity by Muslims be paving the way for such a centralized authority within Islam?

Personally, I'd tell these opportunistic bishops to take a flying leap.
Christ, not any church authority, defined what it meant to be a Christian, and how they would be recognized by others:
John 13:34-35
34 "I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."​
 
Hypothetical, but realistic situation requiring your decision. What should you do?

You have lots of responsibility on your shoulders, because you are a respected Muslim cleric in the aftermath of global disaster! A large meteor has destroyed Washington DC, USA (big surprise!) and has caused terrible destruction making 1/2 of the world uninhabitable for the next 15 years. You and fellow clerics are at a secret meeting with the surviving religious leaders and heads of state, because a lot of Christians and Muslims are going to be living close together very, very soon. (uh-oh!) You've got to figure out how this is going to work, and fast. At hand is either peace or war, and the Catholic bishops are needed to make peace happen. To do it they feel they must have legal primacy over Christianity for at least the next 15 years, so they make it a written stipulation of cooperation. Your part is to accept that Christianity is what they say it is. Other than that, they have no other requests or capitulations. Share food, share everything. Its just for 15 years. Can you give them a yes?

lulz, I'd say "*beep* that, I quit...." Let someone else deal with it... Sounds too much work/effort/time.. I'd then wander off into the wilderness and live happily ever aft0r
 
Id probably suggest and unbiased alternative. A global disaster should bring the few remaining surviviors together. (fantasy, i admit). Simply speaking could the "parties" agree on just laws like the ten commandments.....
Honestly, i think if there was a time frame of any description there would be (using your example) 15years of plotting, sabotage, (waiting to pounce...)
In my opinion.
 
Well assuming that South Americans and Middle-Easterners are left to fend for themselves..

LOL, ROTF..

The rest are welcome to go south or the middle-east or live with 1 billion Indian or 1 billion Chinese and the rest of the world.. and let democracy do its work.

TK
 
Ok I see what you guys are saying.... But there are two parts to the
question. The first part, and the most important one for Muslims is the
issue which SG raises. Unfortunately Muslims today actually believe and
that Islam requires a centralizing authority. And for all practical purposes
each sect of Islam (sunnis/shias/wahabis etc) have their own centralizing
authority in the form of scholars, established doctrine on issues relating
to everything from little variations in the method of prayer to politics...
So in the real world, it would be these authorities which will be making the
deals with whatever authorities are present on the Christian side.

(NOTE: Most Muslims forget that such central authorities go against the
entire spirit of the Quran and the message of the Prophet. Instead of
understanding the Quran today, Muslims just take the word of the scholars
and let them define their religion/views for them.)

So keeping this in mind, we can move on to the second and initial question
by Dream: Would Muslims accept the primacy of one Christian sect over
the others? I think the answer is apparent already: this really has
nothing to do with Islam itself but politics. First of all, the idea that Muslims
will agree on any issue such as this is itself pretty funny. But assuming
that there was some magical agreement between all the Muslims and they
were deciding on their relations with Christians... any such agreement will
be totally dependent on the power quotient of each side on the table.
If the Catholics are the most powerful (and control the most amount of
resources in this post-apolcalyptic wasteland) then I doubt any Muslim
leader would consider not accepting their primacy. The idea that such
things are decided on basis of religion or spiritual considerations...
well... I seriously doubt if these "leaders" present at the table will
have any soul left to begin with.... (let alone spirituality).

... as for what I'd do... personally? Well, assuming I would actually be
willing to deal with such crap (which I wont)... from a standpoint of
elementary strategy, any such treaty with the Catholics would a really
stupid thing to do. I mean think about it, it would jeopardize all your
future relations with any other group of Christians that might come along.
So what if the next day the Protestants come along and they have like
access to a fresh water spring that they control? And their like we wont
trade with you until you throw away your treaty with the Catholics...

Then you have no choice but either to keep drinking irradiated water, or
throw away the treaty with the Catholics, or go to war.... none of these
options are favourable.h So to avoid any such problems, you just avoid
making any such deal wit the Catholics and sign a treaty of neutrality or
a non-agression pact instead. That is until they are willing to come to the
table without making such demands.
 
Hypothetical, but realistic situation requiring your decision. What should you do?

You have lots of responsibility on your shoulders, because you are a respected Muslim cleric in the aftermath of global disaster! A large meteor has destroyed Washington DC, USA (big surprise!) and has caused terrible destruction making 1/2 of the world uninhabitable for the next 15 years. You and fellow clerics are at a secret meeting with the surviving religious leaders and heads of state, because a lot of Christians and Muslims are going to be living close together very, very soon. (uh-oh!) You've got to figure out how this is going to work, and fast. At hand is either peace or war, and the Catholic bishops are needed to make peace happen. To do it they feel they must have legal primacy over Christianity for at least the next 15 years, so they make it a written stipulation of cooperation. Your part is to accept that Christianity is what they say it is. Other than that, they have no other requests or capitulations. Share food, share everything. Its just for 15 years. Can you give them a yes?


You have vast imagination :p

Your hypothesis reply exist in the teachings of Islam.We Muslims well know that the spirit of the Islamic religion is the preservation of human rights ..(muslims or non muslims).The answer to your question which built of imposition.. is yes.

In Surah 30. The Romans, The Byzantines..Allah said:

His speech was for all people... Not only for Moslems


20. Among His Signs in this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!
21. And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect. 22. And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.



Islam urged cooperation between the people

"and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah. for Allah is strict in punishment. "(5:2)


God (Allah) told us in the holy Koran that created the people in various types and tribes.. as test .

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; " (5:48)
 
These answers are appreciated, Friend & c0de. I am also following the conversation in the 'Messiahs' thread, which is also interesting.

@Seattlegal

Yes, I agree that centralization efforts like these can not really be considered catholic.

@Alex

You would? I live within 200 miles of DC, so there would be no decisions for me to make.

@greymare

That is what should happen. I get the feeling that everybody agrees with that. I also think survivor's first choice would be Australia. I think the price of lemonade in Sidney would go up very quickly, and people's hospitality would be put to the test. I don't know about Canadians, but Americans drink a lot of coffee.

@TheKahn

Your UFO idea is a refreshing reassessment of the situation.
 
I think that our human instincs to help one another try to survive would take precedence over any religious preferences. When tsunami struck Indonesia people were hurling from all sides of globe to give donations to help people in need, and in this case it was the Muslims who were majority of the people struck by the tragedy. People, when necessary, know how to set aside their differences and work for a common cause.
Look at the WWII. If it weren't for the majority of world's people (with various religous backgrounds) Hitler would accomplish the sick, evil ideology he had in mind. True, he did tons of damage, destroyed many lives, brought grief to thousands of people... but good of the majority eventually won. It always does.
 
@TheKahn

Your UFO idea is a refreshing reassessment of the situation.

You just know some idiot is gonna try to pull this one off, sooner or later..

as we man species are smart, and come up with inventive ways to rule the world.. :cool:


TK
 
Ow, my toes!

A. Not everything has a reverse, and this might not. I'd say in reverse its more like asking the Christian churches to officially recognize a particular cleric as the official rep for all Muslims everywhere. Would they face a moral dilemma in that scenario, or would they easily point and choose?

B. Its hypothetical. Not really suggesting Bishops are going to do that.

C. Well, yes; but this is different. We're talking about mass migrations of Christians who don't know anything about Islam, but that is not what I meant to emphasize. This is about interfaith decision making - namely would Islam ever, given such a choice, endorse a particular version of Christianity over another. Nobody has to answer me, but it is a question already being discussed in real life at interfaith summits.
Weren't you watching the President's blessings at St. Andrew's Church today?

Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buhdist and Hindu representatives gave the president their blessing, all under one roof...
 
I was and still somewhat impressed with a map American psychic Edgar Cayce produced where the entire ring of fire sinks (California to Japan), and America is separated into two continents straight down from the Great Lakes.

If that happens, hopefully I`d be able to reach Nevada as that will be the next West coast (buying Nevada real estate is always a bit on my mind..). Australia`s too far.

TK

p.s. If I see laser beams cleanly disintegrating city blocks, I`d still head for Nevada. Basically if anything happens I`m headed for Nevada.. I guess I am a fan of Nevada.

hmm.. but if it was a meteor up north, I guess a temporary ice age would come about in the northern hemisphere, so then I might be headed for Australia I guess.
 
I was and still somewhat impressed with a map American psychic Edgar Cayce produced where the entire ring of fire sinks (California to Japan), and America is separated into two continents straight down from the Great Lakes.

If that happens, hopefully I`d be able to reach Nevada as that will be the next West coast (buying Nevada real estate is always a bit on my mind..). Australia`s too far.

TK

p.s. If I see laser beams cleanly disintegrating city blocks, I`d still head for Nevada. Basically if anything happens I`m headed for Nevada.. I guess I am a fan of Nevada.

hmm.. but if it was a meteor, I guess a temporary ice age would come about, so then I`d be headed for Australia I guess.
The US/Canada/Mexico actually consists of three tectonic plates, which can be identified by the peaks that seperate them. The Rockies split west from midwest, and the Appalacia uplands split midwest from east...Casey was a bit off...
 
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