War Crimes?

[Pathless]

Has Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli citizens? Has the IDF committed war crimes against Palestinian citizens? Are either or both sides engaging in collective punishment?

What is just?

What is more important? Justice or peace?

news-gaza3

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

--Gandhi

 

[c0de]

Has Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli citizens?

Yes

Has the IDF committed war crimes against Palestinian citizens?

Definitely

Are either or both sides engaging in collective punishment?

No. Neither the Israelis nor the Arab people gain anything,
nor will they gain anything from this perpetual hostility.
Both sides are being used to create a situation which profits
the elites inside and outside the theater. The leaders of both
sides are to blame as they were willing participants in this game
since its inception.

What is just?

A two state solution.

What is more important? Justice or peace?

Justice.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

--Gandhi

Ghandi is over-rated...

 

[Penguin]

Has Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli citizens?

Yes, there have been brutal suicide bombings in the past as well as rockets etc.

Has the IDF committed war crimes against Palestinian citizens?

There are whole families, 10's of them, that have been killed who had nothing to do with Hamas. So I'd say yes.

Are either or both sides engaging in collective punishment?

Yes

What is just?

God only knows!

What is more important? Justice or peace?

Peace of course, world peace But until Palestinians remove Jews completely and get their land back that isn't going to happen, ever! The future looks just as grim as the past.



news-gaza3

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

--Gandhi

 

[Penguin]

What is more important? Justice or peace?

code - justice

Depends who's dishing out the justice! eh!

 

[c0de]

Depends who's dishing out the justice! eh!

LoL

 

[Janz]

No Peace without Justice;
No Justice without Forgiveness.

Is a two state solution possible when both sides are unwilling to let the other tribe exist? Puppets or not, human beings can decide to forgive and to work together.

As Pope John Paul II said 7 years ago in his message for the World Day of Peace:

But because human justice is always fragile and imperfect, subject as it is to the limitations and egoism of individuals and groups, it must include and, as it were, be completed by the forgiveness which heals and rebuilds troubled human relations from their foundations. This is true in circumstances great and small, at the personal level or on a wider, even international scale. Forgiveness is in no way opposed to justice, as if to forgive meant to overlook the need to right the wrong done. It is rather the fullness of justice, leading to that tranquillity of order which is much more than a fragile and temporary cessation of hostilities, involving as it does the deepest healing of the wounds which fester in human hearts. Justice and forgiveness are both essential to such healing.

 

[Janz]

^ I need to correct the date of Pope John Paul's above message. It is now 7 years old..January 1, 2002.

 

[Friend]

Has Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli citizens? Has the IDF committed war crimes against Palestinian citizens? Are either or both sides engaging in collective punishment?

What is just?

What is more important? Justice or peace?

news-gaza3

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

--Gandhi

The Jews themselves around the world started to feel Bagram the Zionist state (Israel).​

------------------------------------

"The current Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians," Sir Gerald Kaufman, a veteran MP of the governing Labour Party and a long-time critic of Israel, said Thursday in parliament.

Referring to his personal background, as the son of Jewish refugees from Poland, he said: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

Kaufman compared the Hamas militants in Gaza to Jewish resistance fighters during the Second World War, saying: "The spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians. The total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that '500 of them were militants'. That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants."
Israel launched major operations in Gaza on Dec. 27 after Hamas ended a fragile cease-fire with a massive intensification of rocket attacks into southern Israel.

the source .........

 

[Friend]

Has Hamas committed war crimes against Israeli citizens?

No,



According to the definition, known as war crimes
War crimes are "violations of the laws or customs of war", including but not limited to "murder, the ill-treatment or deportation of civilian residents of an occupied territory to slave labor camps", "the murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war", the killing of hostages, "the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military necessity"


Tell me , how many Israeli citizen killed or harmed in this war ??? and where is the damaging of the villages or towns ???? show me the war crimes in south of Israel by Hamas ???

On the Israeli side .... We did not hear the number of deaths which refers to war crimes ... , Hamas didn't used internationally banned weapons on the population

I'm not with Hamas ..... But with the resistance of the occupier all regions of the world.​

Has the IDF committed war crimes against Palestinian citizens?

yes
On the Palestinian side ... We have seen crimes against humanity... Is not related to the war with Hamas. The Israelis were request of the population to gather in one building on the pretext of giving them safety ... while they had been given the orders being bombed together in that building...


Gaza :after the aggression stop

Are either or both sides engaging in collective punishment?

the one which start the aggression in 1984.. by killing and forcing people to leave their land .

What is just?

Justice.. To give all the author of the right...his right.

What is more important? Justice or peace?

Justice leads to peace

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

--Gandhi

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

to be quite frank i find the whole idea of "war crimes" to be rather unusual... if it is a crime it doesn't matter if it happens during the course of war or not. if it isn't a crime then it's not a crime even if it happens during the course of war.

justice is simply a fancy word of saying revenge and thats a cycle that doesn't stop.

there is no way to peace, peace is the way. the way of peace is path that only a warrior can walk for it takes supreme courage and self discipline, an uncompromising introspection and a radical acceptance of ones own actions, thoughts and speech.

metta,

~v

 

[Francis king]

all war is a crime...

murder is a criminal act, and war is mass murder sanctioned by the State...

we dress up the criminal damage and murdering and killing and starving people and call it war, pretend we have grounds for spreading this evil misery and violence, take sides, justify our positions and take up arms, shouting loudly that while we should not kill each other we are justified in killing THEM, the enemy, people really who are much the same as you are yourself...

do they want to punish each other? of course they do... look here, on this site, where people of faith and non faith come together to discuss faith, where a post about war generates 14 pages of posts, the majority of which take sides, provide evidence to support claims, their justifications for hating the other, the enemy, the wrong-doer, polarising debates into good and bad and black and white... how much easier is it then to do this when your brother is missing a leg because of THEM, when your house has been blown apart and you have lost your livelihood because of THEM...

then you will hate THEM...

as for punishment... who shall we punish? Governments? Politicians and the Generals? We probably should, but instead we will punish whoever loses, and thanks to the media and the pictures of murdered Arab children on TV that will be the Jews, most likely ordinary Jews who live their own lives peacefully and wouldn't dream of killing kids and bombing schools and hospitals...

instead if we punish anyone it will be individuals, kids who are conscripted into the army to do national service and have their heads filled with hate for THEM dressed up as duty, their lips moistened with fear for their own lives dodging THEIR bullets...

but is this justice? Justice is often just revenge repackaged to suit the palate of Liberals, something done after the fact to soothe troubled minds, a sticking plaster over a gaping soul-wound... there there, everything's alright again; the bad man has gone to jail, and peace has been restored...

Justice is determined by the victors...

and so on it goes...

We are encountering economic disaster, apparently, the unstable capitalist economy is going belly up... in the UK, we are planning to upgrade our nuclear warhead packed Trident submarines, at a cost of 20 billion pounds...

the war machine will keep turning, let's not pretend there are some wars which are more palatable and honest than others, some warmongers worth supporting while others should perish...

 

[Postmaster]

Nice thanks for that Vajradhara. I totally agree.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Hi Vaj,

to be quite frank i find the whole idea of "war crimes" to be rather unusual...if it is a crime it doesn't matter if it happens during the course of war or not.

It matters in terms of establishing jurisdiction for the prosecution of a crime.

justice is simply a fancy word of saying revenge and that's a cycle that doesn't stop.

How would this apply in instances where a case is handled by an independent court?

the way of peace is path that only a warrior can walk for it takes supreme courage and self discipline, an uncompromising introspection and a radical acceptance of ones own actions, thoughts and speech.

Are you saying the need for individual beings to eventually develop an appreciation for certain values is more important than the immediate need to protect a civilian population from aggression?

 

[Quahom1]

Namaste all,

to be quite frank i find the whole idea of "war crimes" to be rather unusual... if it is a crime it doesn't matter if it happens during the course of war or not. if it isn't a crime then it's not a crime even if it happens during the course of war.

justice is simply a fancy word of saying revenge and thats a cycle that doesn't stop.

there is no way to peace, peace is the way. the way of peace is path that only a warrior can walk for it takes supreme courage and self discipline, an uncompromising introspection and a radical acceptance of ones own actions, thoughts and speech.

metta,

~v

I am reminded of a video of an American soldier being shot by a fighter in Iraq who was video taping the event (for political statement I suppose). Square in the chest, the US soldier was hit (at a check point), and down he went. There was some exhalted comment coming from the shooter, when the US soldier suddenly stood up, walked towards (on steady feet), and pointed his own weapon at the camera man/sniper and said in Arabic "is this really the way you want this to go?"...

Talk about second chances...

 

[c0de]

justice is simply a fancy word of saying revenge and thats a cycle that doesn't stop.

Justice is balance, and it is based in fairness. Fairness requires an equilibrium.
This concept is represented by the iconic measuring scale: When one side
tips over, the other side rises. And the scale, is not a cyclical proccess.

The whole idea behind Final Judgment is the restoration of this equilibrium...
as these scales can never be fully restored by man, in this world. For example:
Everyone who dies through oppression, has been robbed of his life by unjust means.
Therefore, he deserves justice. So sin becomes necessary for redemption. And this is
where Divine mercy and forgiveness come in.

 

[Saltmeister]

Peace of course, world peace But until Palestinians remove Jews completely and get their land back that isn't going to happen, ever! The future looks just as grim as the past.

I think Justice is more important than Peace, as Peace, as purely as the kind of peace as one may desire, may not be attainable. There probably won't ever be perfect peace. There may not be perfect Justice either, but to achieve Justice will be easier than achieving Peace and more importantly, the peace one desires may come from the justice than one achieves.

People in the Middle East ultimately don't want Peace. They want Justice.

The people who aren't actively pursuing Justice, the ones who are making war to grab territory to increase the power of their State, Armed Forces or military industrial complex are the ones committing the war crimes.

Justice leads to peace

Affirmative.

justice is simply a fancy word of saying revenge and thats a cycle that doesn't stop.

but is this justice? Justice is often just revenge repackaged to suit the palate of Liberals, something done after the fact to soothe troubled minds, a sticking plaster over a gaping soul-wound... there there, everything's alright again; the bad man has gone to jail, and peace has been restored...

Justice is determined by the victors...

I think that's only true when one's definition of "justice" is condemnation, demonisation, vilification and punishment. The word "justice" loses any useful meaning when it serves a divisive, hostile or hurtful agenda. When what one means by "justice" is to hurt someone, that is when it often doesn't serve its purpose.

My concept of Justice is that it's about finding resolutions for hurt, pain and anger. It is about making the hurt, pain, hatred and anger go away. It is about finding a resolution that will satisfy all parties involved.

When "Justice" is conceptualised by demonising, vilifying, condemning or punishing an individual or group of people, true Justice isn't being served.

all war is a crime...

murder is a criminal act, and war is mass murder sanctioned by the State...

But what if we were fighting against a force of "evil"? What would you say about World War II when Hitler rounded up the Jews and initiated the Holocaust? Was it just pro-Jewish propaganda?

Hitler initiated an injustice. He committed a crime that was not to go answered.

I'm not saying the British were entirely faultless, especially with Arthur Harris and the area bombing of Cologne and Dresden, which gave Hitler an argument against the Allies. But Hitler and Germany was acting like a madman with a sword in his hand.

Hitler had to be stopped!!!!

 

[Pathless]

My concept of Justice is that it's about finding resolutions for hurt, pain and anger. It is about making the hurt, pain, hatred and anger go away. It is about finding a resolution that will satisfy all parties involved.

I like this.

No Peace without Justice;
No Justice without Forgiveness.

...human beings can decide to forgive and to work together.

I like that, too.

I also like this:

But because human justice is always fragile and imperfect, subject as it is to the limitations and egoism of individuals and groups, it must include and, as it were, be completed by the forgiveness which heals and rebuilds troubled human relations from their foundations. This is true in circumstances great and small, at the personal level or on a wider, even international scale. Forgiveness is in no way opposed to justice, as if to forgive meant to overlook the need to right the wrong done. It is rather the fullness of justice, leading to that tranquillity of order which is much more than a fragile and temporary cessation of hostilities, involving as it does the deepest healing of the wounds which fester in human hearts. Justice and forgiveness are both essential to such healing.

And this:

there is no way to peace, peace is the way.

Also this:

all war is a crime...

murder is a criminal act, and war is mass murder sanctioned by the State...

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

 

[Bandit]

Justice is balance, and it is based in fairness. Fairness requires an equilibrium.
This concept is represented by the iconic measuring scale: When one side
tips over, the other side rises. And the scale, is not a cyclical proccess.

Only problem with that is no one can ever agree on what & how much justice or fairness really is. One guy says this is the revenge we deserve and the people in the next town over say that is not enough justice or that is too much revenge. You cannot even get judges in the same state to agree on the laws created or interpreting those laws the same way, thus with justice-revenge being served, you still do not end up with peace. Justice and revenge are a cyclical process and is only viewed as balance in the court where a ruling is made. The next court over may rule completely different on the same exact case.

 

[Bandit]

Namaste all,

to be quite frank i find the whole idea of "war crimes" to be rather unusual... if it is a crime it doesn't matter if it happens during the course of war or not. if it isn't a crime then it's not a crime even if it happens during the course of war.

justice is simply a fancy word of saying revenge and thats a cycle that doesn't stop.

there is no way to peace, peace is the way. the way of peace is path that only a warrior can walk for it takes supreme courage and self discipline, an uncompromising introspection and a radical acceptance of ones own actions, thoughts and speech.

metta,

~v

Absolutley agree. To even question that, they do not understand peace.

 

[c0de]

Only problem with that is no one can ever agree on what & how much justice or fairness really is.

I agree, and this is why I said that man himself is NOT capable of restoring the balance.
However, this does not mean we should abandon the concept of Justice, and the rule of law.
We are required to be as "just" as we can, that is all we can do.

Justice and revenge are a cyclical process and is only viewed as balance in the court where a ruling is made.

Revenge is subjective, specific to the parties involved.
Justice is the over all balance.
A balance by definition is not cyclical.