Where are we at?

Tao_Equus

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I think few could deny that we live in an apparently very different world than the one we felt we were looking at 5 years ago. The bubble of affluent profligacy built on credit and a cultural acceptance of the very notion you can reap before you sow lays dead in the water. People were persuaded so hard through every media to buy and buy and pay for it all on credit. But never are they given the truth that they are now slaves to the corrupt banking institutions. Well they are being shaken awake now to face the fact that they have done a deal with the devil. The once pretty trinkets they bought are realising their built in obsolescence and decay before their eyes. The houses they bought are worth half the mortgage they are forced to pay for it. And they are charged interest on this lie of value that resulted directly from the banks lending practices.

I have not seen a statistic relating personal income with how much goes to serve personal debt but I am sure it must be close, on average, to what we pay in taxes. We are in effect taxed twice. Our government then give more of our future income to the bankers in the form of so called bail outs. Meanwhile the banks of the tax havens of the world, full of the money of our western bankers and their political allies, have been enjoying unparalleled deposits.

Now we come to our third tax in this holy trinity. Energy. In exactly the same way that banks inflated the value of property the oil companies inflated the value of energy and are taxing us at this inflated rate. Now is it a coincidence that the heads of all these companies/groups/organisations all meet together in semi-secret groups to decide business?

Of course I talk here to a western audience. Still a minority opinion on the global scale. Compared to much of global society our troubles could seem almost superficial. We, despite the disproportionate scaremongering propaganda, do not live in war zones (even if our poorer districts can seem as such when ravaged by poverty and drugs) nor are we faced with such a preventable tragedy as starvation (though again junk food diets may be viewed as an obese variant of starvation). But we do share something in common. Their suffering, far more deadly than ours as it is, is often at the hands of the very same people that we have signed up as slaves to. The same energy/resource and military/political conflicts have been around for decades now. That they perpetuate is no accident. They are good business.

The group that runs the show (as far as we are concerned) is probably the dominant one on the planet. But not the only one. Russia and China for example do provide regional and global alternatives and competition. Putin laughs loud at the very notion of western freedom because he knows exactly what it is. China continues to grow silently omnipresent.

So where are we at? We have Obama maybe deliberately stymied by the bankers he says he want to reveal as rotten. Did they create this situation because something new has happened? A real rogue president and not another puppet? Where are we at and where are we heading? What happens next? Any ideas?
 
I think few could deny that we live in an apparently very different world than the one we felt we were looking at 5 years ago. The bubble of affluent profligacy built on credit and a cultural acceptance of the very notion you can reap before you sow lays dead in the water. People were persuaded so hard through every media to buy and buy and pay for it all on credit. But never are they given the truth that they are now slaves to the corrupt banking institutions. Well they are being shaken awake now to face the fact that they have done a deal with the devil. The once pretty trinkets they bought are realising their built in obsolescence and decay before their eyes. The houses they bought are worth half the mortgage they are forced to pay for it. And they are charged interest on this lie of value that resulted directly from the banks lending practices.

I have not seen a statistic relating personal income with how much goes to serve personal debt but I am sure it must be close, on average, to what we pay in taxes. We are in effect taxed twice. Our government then give more of our future income to the bankers in the form of so called bail outs. Meanwhile the banks of the tax havens of the world, full of the money of our western bankers and their political allies, have been enjoying unparalleled deposits.

Now we come to our third tax in this holy trinity. Energy. In exactly the same way that banks inflated the value of property the oil companies inflated the value of energy and are taxing us at this inflated rate. Now is it a coincidence that the heads of all these companies/groups/organisations all meet together in semi-secret groups to decide business?

Of course I talk here to a western audience. Still a minority opinion on the global scale. Compared to much of global society our troubles could seem almost superficial. We, despite the disproportionate scaremongering propaganda, do not live in war zones (even if our poorer districts can seem as such when ravaged by poverty and drugs) nor are we faced with such a preventable tragedy as starvation (though again junk food diets may be viewed as an obese variant of starvation). But we do share something in common. Their suffering, far more deadly than ours as it is, is often at the hands of the very same people that we have signed up as slaves to. The same energy/resource and military/political conflicts have been around for decades now. That they perpetuate is no accident. They are good business.

The group that runs the show (as far as we are concerned) is probably the dominant one on the planet. But not the only one. Russia and China for example do provide regional and global alternatives and competition. Putin laughs loud at the very notion of western freedom because he knows exactly what it is. China continues to grow silently omnipresent.

So where are we at? We have Obama maybe deliberately stymied by the bankers he says he want to reveal as rotten. Did they create this situation because something new has happened? A real rogue president and not another puppet? Where are we at and where are we heading? What happens next? Any ideas?

Because we are as we are, everything is as it is. It cannot be different. No speeches will help. Now it is just a little more obvious. Everything moves in cycles. We are just in part of a cycle which is not pleasant. It still has a bit further down to go IMO .
 
So where are we at? We have Obama maybe deliberately stymied by the bankers he says he want to reveal as rotten. Did they create this situation because something new has happened? A real rogue president and not another puppet? Where are we at and where are we heading? What happens next? Any ideas?

It will come as a surprise to a lot of people who want to believe the system can be changed, and that Obama is some kind of superman / messiah...but we are going to continue with more of the same. The system is too entrenched, and the powers that be are far too vested to surrender that power. Obama's hands are tied...he either goes along, or the powers that be will insure he is rendered ineffective in reality *and* in the minds of the masses. Making waves by rocking the boat is the surest way to bring one's efforts of change to a screeching halt. There are really only two relatively effective means to effect change...try to play the system, which is modestly successful within constraints, and very slow to process...or revolution, and I don't think the American people have the stomach for that just yet. We'll see what this economic crisis brings, but for all the hype I don't see things getting anywhere close to what was experienced in the 1930's, and even that wasn't enough to provoke revolution.
 
It will come as a surprise to a lot of people who want to believe the system can be changed, and that Obama is some kind of superman / messiah...but we are going to continue with more of the same. The system is too entrenched, and the powers that be are far too vested to surrender that power. Obama's hands are tied...he either goes along, or the powers that be will insure he is rendered ineffective in reality *and* in the minds of the masses. Making waves by rocking the boat is the surest way to bring one's efforts of change to a screeching halt. There are really only two relatively effective means to effect change...try to play the system, which is modestly successful within constraints, and very slow to process...or revolution, and I don't think the American people have the stomach for that just yet. We'll see what this economic crisis brings, but for all the hype I don't see things getting anywhere close to what was experienced in the 1930's, and even that wasn't enough to provoke revolution.

I agree revolution to be unlikely, not without real leadership. But what if Obama was to compile the data and release it as a live public address....calling for revolution?
 
I agree revolution to be unlikely, not without real leadership. But what if Obama was to compile the data and release it as a live public address....calling for revolution?

He would become a dictator like many others. Marx preached revolution because he believed that religion was the opiate of the masses.

Simone Weil retorted that revolution was the opiate of the masses. This is obvious because everything is as it is because of what we are. Revolution cannot change anything because in time the same problems appear.
 
This is simply part and parcel of a series of events that will always continue....inflationary and deflationary cycles, expansion and contraction of economy, fluctuation of the dollar, various goods and services supply and demand shifting, and dozens of other measures that affect our daily lives.

The excesses of the 90's were not simply the people and governments spending beyond their means but an expansion of technology at such a rapid pace we couldn't keep up...the ebb and flow will continue to happen, we are in a correction that was inevitable. When you go to far along without one the correction is larger...we had a big one in the 30's smaller in the 50's and 80's...it simply is part of the roller coaster. The problem that always exists is when anything like this happens most of the earning class was too young to remember or be involved in the last and it seems earth shattering...

Like anything else, this too shall pass.
 
This is simply part and parcel of a series of events that will always continue....inflationary and deflationary cycles, expansion and contraction of economy, fluctuation of the dollar, various goods and services supply and demand shifting, and dozens of other measures that affect our daily lives.

What's different is (1) a huge gross national debt combined with (2) a lack of demand for goods and services that would lead to the spending needed to generate tax revenues, and (3) the absence of real growth industries.
 
What's different is (1) a huge gross national debt combined with (2) a lack of demand for goods and services that would lead to the spending needed to generate tax revenues, and (3) the absence of real growth industries.
I refuse to crawl under a rock.

I am currently working on "I'm not waiting for the gov't personal/community/state/national/intl pay it forward economic stimulus plan.

In every recession, depression, war, whatever opportunities for growth and solutions to pull us out exist. My goal is to find and come out better on the other side while helping others to do the same.
 
I refuse to crawl under a rock.

I am currently working on "I'm not waiting for the gov't personal/community/state/national/intl pay it forward economic stimulus plan.

In every recession, depression, war, whatever opportunities for growth and solutions to pull us out exist. My goal is to find and come out better on the other side while helping others to do the same.
Now yer’ talkin’. Good for you.

I’ll leave it to others to change the rubber sheets on their beds. We’re obviously in a greater downturn than we’ve seen in decades but the fact remains that the U.S. economy is still the most vibrant and most resilient there is. Let the whiners whine about the sky falling but recessions end and economies recover. The U.S. will recover in spite of the whiners hoping the sky will fall over such issues as the Chinese economy, the value of the Euro and an emerging South America.

It's a different reason, but the same argument: nations that decrease the competitiveness of various US industries through any number of things, be they unfair trade laws or lower wages or whatever is the sky-is-falling chant of the day, are always about the cause economic "COLLAPSE!" in the US.

Mexico was supposed to have done it to us when cars started being made there. America retooled to focus more on technology production and services and benefited as much as Mexico. Similar stories with Japan and Eastern Europe now.

And China? We will benefit as we retool in line with our comparative advantage to industries where the scale, capital requirements and technological demands eliminate China as a viable option. Not to mention as we pour venture dollars into expanding Chinese businesses and reap much of the rewards ourselves for consumption within the US.

 
I am currently working on "I'm not waiting for the gov't personal/community/state/national/intl pay it forward economic stimulus plan....My goal is to find and come out better on the other side while helping others to do the same.
For starters, it's illegal for you to print your own currency. And if you pay taxes, then you know that bartering goods and services is also illegal

My point here is that there is no other economy besides the one you're hearing about.
 

And China? We will benefit as we retool in line with our comparative advantage to industries where the scale, capital requirements and technological demands eliminate China as a viable option. Not to mention as we pour venture dollars into expanding Chinese businesses and reap much of the rewards ourselves for consumption within the US.
You must be joking. China has been the lifeline for the US economy. The Chinese paid for the war in Iraq because the US didn't have the funds. You want to argue that US dependence on the Chinese will be reversed? When and how?

FYI, in the absence of real economic growth, investment in the US is quickly drying up and those who had been investing are bailing. Last month they pulled out $90 billion.
Investors dump $89B in U.S. securities in historic fire sale - USATODAY.com

How much will they pull out this month?

This is why Obama is prepared to come up with billion of dollars of funny money at the risk of complicatating the situation with inflation. There a fewer and fewer ways to keep it all afloat.
 
This is why Obama is prepared to come up with billions of dollars - almost a trillion - of funny money at the risk of complicating the situation with inflation. There are fewer and fewer ways to keep it all afloat.
Someone on the USAToday page noted that the US is likely to be stuck in a viscous circle:
...as foreign analysts see the US economy collapsing, they know government will print more and more "funny money" and that the US$ will go down and down so they will sell their US notes and we will have to print more and more "funny money."
This trend will be reinforced by all other forms of economic bad news - mass layoff, plummeting real estate values, personal bankruptcies, retailers going out of business, California furloughs, a second or third bailout of the automotive industry, and then inflation, when that kicks in.

nations that decrease the competitiveness of various US industries through any number of things, be they unfair trade laws or lower wages or whatever is the sky-is-falling chant of the day, are always about the cause economic "COLLAPSE!" in the US.
I see. The cause doesn't matter.
 
For starters, it's illegal for you to print your own currency. And if you pay taxes, then you know that bartering goods and services is also illegal

My point here is that there is no other economy besides the one you're hearing about.
#1 printing money may be illegal, but I'm picking it off trees. #2 bartering is not illegal, it isn't what I'm proposing, but it isn't illegal you file your barter income in box 3 of form 1099-B.

The economy I'm hearing about is no different than any other, using past information as to where one can benefit during this econmy is what I am talking about. For instance, as forclosure's rise and banks begin sitting on more and more inventory and our silly gov't is going to bail them out for their bad loans, they will release these houses for pennies on the dollar, and they will refinance the new owners, hence one can provide rentals for those that need it at reasonable prices today, and wait for the economy and the value of the property to be many times purchase price....whilst benefitting those that need housing now. This is just one avenue..
 
You must be joking. China has been the lifeline for the US economy. The Chinese paid for the war in Iraq because the US didn't have the funds. You want to argue that US dependence on the Chinese will be reversed? When and how?

You must be joking. I can understand if you said another Asian country paid for the war in Iraq as they are almost forced to pay a lot for every US war in exchange for protection, but may I ask why you think the Chinese paid for Iraq? And the specific reference to that information.

It`s about time all players in the free market economy play by the same democratic rules, and that is how exactly things could be reversed with regards to the democratic countries and China. They(China government) simply don`t play by our rules yet we let them play in our playground. Communists can`t live without us, but how on earth do you come up with the logic that we can`t live without them? The only money they make, is currently from us. And its easy, we just say "NO", thats it.. unless they have a death grip on us which they seem to be working on.

Changing the subject, in the earlier posts it was mentioned that we don`t have a stomach for revolution, I agree.

But, we always have a stomach for an industrial revolution. And I believe that is where we are exactly at. To be specific, and from here it is heavily my personal opinion, but I strongly believe that a straight-forward solution to become energy independent from imperial and communists countries is a must.

Once that is done, which I don`t quite think the Obama administration has the stomach for (McCain might have been better for this maybe..), then we can move on and spread out into other spectrums of the possible next industrial revolution.

But in saying, communists are an absolute necessity of the democratic world in order for democracy to survive is absurd. Again communists need us, we don`t need them although they and two bit businessmen without a soul would very much want us to believe otherwise.

Not doing business with communists (and oil rich countries) would be no worse than the economic hardships we would be facing in the near future. In fact it`ll definitely be just a temporary set back, rather than an unknown which is what we face now.

We can use all the money that we permit to be transferred to non-democratic countries, shut up the minorities among us who oppose and inject that money into our own economy, and to those that play by the same rules. Takes care of two birds with one stone.


TK
 
I agree revolution to be unlikely, not without real leadership. But what if Obama was to compile the data and release it as a live public address....calling for revolution?

Then he would become a martyr at the hands of the powers that be, at which time Biden, a dyed in the wool good ol' boy would assume the reigns of government and the mantle of commander in chief and move to squash any rebellion.

It's simply going to have to get worse, a *lot* worse, before it gets any better...if better is defined as being rid of the entrenched powers that be. Let's not forget, those PTB are not limited to America, they encompass *every* nation that has any real say-so on the planet, east and west. And their stranglehold is largely through the banks and economics. If I were still a conspiracy nut, I would suggest this "meltdown" was preplanned and contrived. But I'm not, so I won't. Instead, I'll let the reader decide for themselves... ;)
 
... revolution was the opiate of the masses. This is obvious because everything is as it is because of what we are. Revolution cannot change anything because in time the same problems appear.

The problem is we don't care about what comes behind us. I repeat, we don't care. If we did, we wouldn't allow our government to put us 2 trillion more dollars in debt, not counting interest. We talk a big talk, but we really just don't care about anything but *now.*

In theory, and I hesitate because I am *not* advocating anything let alone revolution, in theory revolution would move us back to square one, and square one isn't all that bad of a place to be. Fresh slate, new beginning, the promise if only fleeting of doing a better job than our forebears, a drive and dynamic that spurs the good principles in people. Yeah, I'll go along with the idea that *eventually* we would end up right back where we started...if history is any indicator, then I agree. But the very beginning of any *effective* revolution has historically been a very productive and meaningful time, provided you weren't on the side being deposed.

Again, for emphasis and big time butt cover, I am speaking strictly from a historical POV.
 
Like anything else, this too shall pass.

In essense I agree. I was around for the '80's though, and it seemed to me to be a bit more localized. California was hit particularly hard, but the rest of the country (at least Virginia and South Carolina where I spent some time) weathered it pretty well, shoot S.C. hardly batted an eye.

The gas crunch of the '70's though hit everybody.

I think the tech meltdown in 2000 caught a lot of people including myself off guard. But this most recent run up of house prices simply couldn't be sustained...*that* I saw from a long way off. Talk about irrational exuberance, people were giddy betting on houses, "flipping" and reselling houses the next week or month at a profit because the market got so insane. At the rate it was going we would have to hock our grandkids to buy a house today if it didn't crash. But like all pendulum swings...now it's headed towards the other extreme.

This is not the end of the world. Yeah, everybody is gonna have to tighten their belts a little. Maybe somewhere in this somebody will get the bright idea that a return to rational economic practices (like not spending more than you earn, and saving, both lessons I still need to incorporate). By the way, saving does not mean spending less. Spending is spending, the amount does not matter, we need to relearn to clarify this point in our minds and release ourselves from the grip of advertising propaganda.

Yeah, spending may drive the economy, but if at the end of the day and the end of a lifetime you have nothing to show, what good has it done *you?* At some point one has to be selfish to support one's family. Nobody else is looking out for you (in spite the political rhetoric), you really need to take responsibility for yourself.

He says as he kicks himself in the butt and reminds that he needs to put his behavior where his words are... :eek:
 
What's different is (1) a huge gross national debt combined with (2) a lack of demand for goods and services that would lead to the spending needed to generate tax revenues, and (3) the absence of real growth industries.

The industries have *mostly* been shipped to China or elsewhere, an ancillary benefit of globalized markets and lower cost of production (no unions, lower wages, fewer if any benefits). As long as it costs more to produce in America, our manufacturing will be exported. That's just good business sense.

Lack of demand? Dunno. Effectively the same number of people are still "demanding" to eat, clothe themselves, live in climate controlled homes, and get from point A to point B. Those demands are going to stay the same.

It's the other little ancillary perks and benefits...the *new* oversized home, the gargantuan SUV, the super-sized Micky D's (which posted a profit, by the way, while everybody else was licking their wounds). There is a distinction to be made between wants and needs. Despite the advertising hype, we do not need these things, we want them. But we will survive, quite nicely, without them.

And I still fail to understand the logic behind going two trillion dollars *further* into national debt...Keynesian economics bedamned. That is precisely how currencies get devalued, worthless, is when central banks print more money than they can back with real value (like gold or silver). But then, "money" anymore is some ethereal computer blip with no real value anyway....
 
I refuse to crawl under a rock.

I am currently working on "I'm not waiting for the gov't personal/community/state/national/intl pay it forward economic stimulus plan.

In every recession, depression, war, whatever opportunities for growth and solutions to pull us out exist. My goal is to find and come out better on the other side while helping others to do the same.

Amen! Go Brother!
 
For starters, it's illegal for you to print your own currency. And if you pay taxes, then you know that bartering goods and services is also illegal

The government doesn't seem to mind printing currency. Fiat script has been the way of money in this country since the Civil War, but it was supposed to be an IOU for real value. Bartering is *not* illegal...as for taxes last I heard as long as you declared fair reasonable value. So unless something has changed since last I attended tax classes (which is entirely possible)...
 
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