# Torah base 7?

#### wil

##### UNeyeR1
Veteran Member
Does anyone know anything about the Torah written in base 7?

as in 7 days of creation...

so where it says 40 that would be our 28 in base 10?

and I guess that would affect the numbers of people in each tribe and how old people lived?

Whatchu talkin bout, Wil-is?

base 7 numbering system

1 = 1
2 = 2
3 = 3
4 = 4
5 = 5
6 = 6
10 = 7
11 =8
20 = 14
21 = 15
40 = 28

I think that is how it goes...

I know you're talking about base 7 numbering. My question might better be understood as,

"Where did you come across the notion that the Torah is base 7?"

I was taught that the numbers in the Torah are frequently not meant to be taken literally but rather could be translated as "a lot" or "a lot a lot" or if you're into gematria and numerology in different ways. If they're meant to always be taken literally, there're a heck of a lot of round numbers.

NEway the counting system uses hebrew letters as numerals like so:

Hebrew numerals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You could argue that some of the numbers are influenced by base 7 but the counting itself is base 10.

Here's a handy calculator:

Base-10 to Base-7 Conversion Calculator

"Where did you come across the notion that the Torah is base 7?"
I can't recall. I remember coming across it when I was reading about various math systems in use in various areas of the world at one time and it just percolated back upto the surface and was contemplating the significance.

hmmm so I just searched and came back with this link...

torah torah torah - 7 - chaldean astrology - interfaith.org

I have the sneaky suspicion the thread topic was inspired by Christian Dispensationalism and prophecy theories.

But if not . . . it would be interesting to probe if Judaism hosts such (numerology-inspired) sentiments, or . . . its own versions of such sentiments.

I say that because of what I know of Christian Dispensationalism and prophecy theories.

I just thought I might add, that although Judaism may well have invented this stuff, Christianity has adapted it for its own purposes.

EDIT: Another thing. It's a bit like the Romans taking Greek inventions and adapting them for more widespread practical use (it's part of my impression from a book I read some time ago that much of Roman technology was originally invented by Greeks). Just saying.

I have the sneaky suspicion the thread topic was inspired by Christian Dispensationalism and prophecy theories.
Had to be subconsciously as I have no idear what Christian Dispensationalism is.

Had to be subconsciously as I have no idear what Christian Dispensationalism is.

(There must be a Dispensationalist in all of us. Nah just kidding.)

As usual, one should have a look at the Wikipedia article or do a search on Yahoo!/Google:

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dispensationalism and Christian prophecy theories often involve numbers due to what you'd find in the Book of Daniel and Revelation.

I haven't explored all the different variations and I am most familiar with Clarence Larkin's work. But this was a while back and when I first came across it I was thinking, "Wow!" I have since lost interest in that stuff because I've discovered that a religion can have so many facets that even though Dispensationalism and prophecy can be exciting it is a fairly narrow-minded view of things.

Clarence Larkin's work assigns a meaning to the numbers found in Scripture:
1 - Number of Unity
2 - Number of Union
3 - Number of Divinity
4 - Number of the World
5 - Number of Division
6 - Number of Man
7 - Number of Perfection/Dispensational Fulness
8 - Number of New Order of Things
9 - Number of Worldly Completion
12 - Number of Eternal Perfection
40 - Number of Probation

It's a collection of charts expounding on his eschatological views.

China Cat Sunflower often spoke of his experiences in the Seventh Day Adventist Church (not saying that Clarence Larkin was of SDA background) and it would interesting to hear about how this fits in with his experiences.

hmmm well maybe you have something there.

Yes in Unity we play with the metaphysics of the numbers, the names (of people and places) listed in the bible.

I haven't focused much on the numbers, but I'll take a look at our definitions and report back for you.

I know I have heard 40 as 4 square, as in 40 days in the desert or years in the wildnerness...a time which means completion.

If base 7 the 40 would mean our 28... one phase of the moon, one menstrual cycle...which does jive with a completion of a cycle.

I wrote the original "torah torah torah" piece. I did read a book once, "The Bible Dates Itself" (unfortunately, a self-published book which I have never been able to locate again, and cannot remember the author's name) which asserted that the puzzling chronology in Kings (the parallel reign-lengths in Judah and Israel are notoriously hard to reconcile) easily straightens out if it is assumed that until the Assyrian domination, the counting was in base-seven.

It was also pointed out that other stories add up better that way: if Abraham was not "100" but rather "49" (a week of weeks), and the word tish'iym "lacking some" does not mean "90" (tish'ah "lacking" became the word for nine, because it is just short of 10; with the plural ending it means nine tens) but rather "42" (six sevens; lacking one week from the week-of-weeks), then the story of Sarah is that her periods stopped and she quite naturally, at that age, assumed menopause, and laughed out loud when someone told her she was pregnant: as opposed to, not realizing until she was in her eighties (if that's when she told Abraham to impregnate Hagar) that she was unlikely to have a child.

that's a really interesting theory; i wonder what the implications for other issues are; it would certainly explain why we treat the number eight as being "one beyond the natural completion" or "going one further", 10 in base 7 would certainly make sense. is there any evidence that the assyrians used this numbering system? after all, we use their script, we call it "ashurit" and know it to have been different from "paleo-hebrew".

b'shalom

bananabrain

According to the "Bible Dates Itself" book, it was precisely to conform to Assyrian usage that the base-7 numeration was abandoned in favor of the Assyrians' base-10.

According to the "Bible Dates Itself" book, it was precisely to conform to Assyrian usage that the base-7 numeration was abandoned in favor of the Assyrians' base-10.
Is that a yes or a no?

Is that a yes or a no?
As I understand BB's question, he was wondering whether the Assyrians used the base-7 system and maybe that is where it came in; quite to the contrary, the Assyrians used base-10, and that is why base-7 was abandoned.

that makes a fair bit of sense: it would show why we maintained a sort of 'spiritual allegiance' to the base-7 numbering and continued to see it as important although adopting the base-10 numbering as a 'vernacular', if you see what i mean. which would bring me to the next question: are there any numbers in the Torah proper (as opposed to Tanakh) that, if considered as base-7 compared to base-10, pose a challenge to a traditional halakhic position? i'm not talking theology here, you understand, i can't see how changing the ages of some of the people in the bible would upset traditional authorities, if they are prepared to argue over the age of isaac at the aqedah. i'm talking about something like, i don't know, an argument to prove that there were originally seven commandments or seven plagues as opposed to the ten we have now and that the extra three were added later. you understand my interest, of course!

b'shalom

bananabrain

About the "ten" plagues, I would have to look into it.
But about the "ten" commandments: you know that the list we commonly call that is not so labelled in the text? (Nor, of course, is the subdivision into a list of "ten" unambiguous; you could divide it up as "twelve" commandments if you really tried.) There is a DIFFERENT place in the text where it speaks about the eser commandments (apparently just meaning "here are a bunch of commandments"), but those commandments are "Remember the Passover" and "don't boil a kid in its mother's milk" and so on.

oh yes, i know about that. there is a lot of traditional discussion about whether there are really ten of them, or where you draw the line, or how you group them, the most common being the distinction between laws "between humans and humans" and laws "between humans and G!D".

b'shalom

bananabrain