12 BibleVerses That Seem To Indicate Jesus Is God

[citizenzen]

People want to learn, and they want greatness of mind.

That's why the steak eater was the villain and not the hero of the film.



You had me all optimistic and sunny with your post until I saw that your example was nothing but the same lies, Lies, LIES!!!

It's QWERTY... not QUERTY.

Once again my dreams for humanity have been dashed!

 

[wil]

You had me all optimistic and sunny with your post until I saw that your example was nothing but the same lies, Lies, LIES!!!

It's QWERTY... not QUERTY.

and dvorak is a fable...sure the one handed left or right work...but the two handed qwerties all beat the two handed dvoracks...

now it is fun to change the key designations without changing the keys, it keeps everyone else off your computer.

 

[Dream]

',.pyf "<>PYF There's your qwerty.

 

[path_of_one]

Trying to weave the two threads together... this was posted on the other thread, but I think it may have more relevance here. Who knows.

I just stated that Jesus was more than a prophet because he forgave sins.

Brace yourselves for another heretical statement...

I am not sure that Jesus' point in stating others' sins were forgiving was to elevate himself to a status above other human beings.

Perhaps the point was that forgiveness flows from one being to another, that we are all capable of giving forgiveness (and in so doing, forgiving and healing ourselves as well), and that justice (necessitating forgiveness of sins) and mercy (providing for the forgiveness of sins) of which humans are capable comes from the Divine and can find its expression in the perfect human life.

That is, perhaps Jesus was demonstrating that each of us can be the expression of God's love for one another, culminating in our forgiveness. I often see that it is the barrier people believe is present between themselves and God that keeps them separate from the Divine. It is the barriers people believe are there between themselves and others that keeps us in states of separation, anxiety and pain. But I do not think, based on my own experience, that this barrier is real. It is a figment of our imagination. We imagine ourselves more than or less than, superior or inferior, and in so doing we abdicate responsibility for our highest potential and we remain ignorant of our capacity for baseness. In the space of honesty, of truthfulness, we can neither claim an inability to be perfect as Christ was, nor can we claim an inability to be profoundly sinful. But we see that in both cases... it is potential- and we create the reality we choose to experience. In each moment, we can open ourselves fully to the Divine, and thus to being a vessel for Christ in us... for being Christ's hands and feet and mouth on earth, for being God's love manifest in a human life. Or we can close ourselves to the Divine and become so selfish that we cause great suffering, that we sin against our fellow beings and, in so doing and in refusing the Divine Itself, we blaspheme and radiate the suffering we have chosen.

I believe Christ was a pure manifestation of God's grace and love in a human life. That is the closest I can come to an explanation. But the point is not explanation or definition or belief. The point of Jesus the Christ is an experience of human potential, of God's love, of mystery. Jesus is an invitation, a glimpse into what the union of the Divine and the human looks like. When we define God and ourselves, we limit both. I have great difficulty explaining how I relate to Christ, and I can freely admit that my spiritual journey is often uncomfortable. But to quote Huxley's "Brave New World:"

But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.

 

[soleil10]

Brace yourselves for another heretical statement... I am not sure that Jesus' point in stating others' sins were forgiving was to elevate himself to a status above other human beings.

I do not think that Jesus was trying to elevate himself to a status above all other human beings by forgiving sins.

the point was that forgiveness flows from one being to another, that we are all capable of giving forgiveness (and in so doing, forgiving and healing ourselves as well), and that justice (necessitating forgiveness of sins) and mercy (providing for the forgiveness of sins) of which humans are capable comes from the Divine and can find its expression in the perfect human life.

I totally agree that because Jesus as the second Adam had perfected his divine character and became the tree of life.

That is, perhaps Jesus was demonstrating that each of us can be the expression of God's love for one another, culminating in our forgiveness.

Like the first Adam and the second Adam, we are called to become Christ like and perfect our character. The first Adam fell but as a second Adam Jesus succeeded.

I often see that it is the barrier people believe is present between themselves and God that keeps them separate from the Divine. It is the barriers people believe are there between themselves and others that keeps us in states of separation, anxiety and pain. But I do not think, based on my own experience, that this barrier is real. It is a figment of our imagination. We imagine ourselves more than or less than, superior or inferior, and in so doing we abdicate responsibility for our highest potential and we remain ignorant of our capacity for baseness. In the space of honesty, of truthfulness, we can neither claim an inability to be perfect as Christ was, nor can we claim an inability to be profoundly sinful. But we see that in both cases... it is potential- and we create the reality we choose to experience. In each moment, we can open ourselves fully to the Divine, and thus to being a vessel for Christ in us... for being Christ's hands and feet and mouth on earth, for being God's love manifest in a human life. Or we can close ourselves to the Divine and become so selfish that we cause great suffering, that we sin against our fellow beings and, in so doing and in refusing the Divine Itself, we blaspheme and radiate the suffering we have chosen.

There is a war between our mind and body in each one of us as the descendant of the first Adam. Through Jesus and the Holy Spirit we received spiritual salvation. If Jesus could have been married, he would have at last established God's lineage on earth and his sinless blood could have expanded through humanity. We would be born without the original sin.

I believe Christ was a pure manifestation of God's grace and love in a human life. That is the closest I can come to an explanation. But the point is not explanation or definition or belief. The point of Jesus the Christ is an experience of human potential, of God's love, of mystery. Jesus is an invitation, a glimpse into what the union of the Divine and the human looks like. When we define God and ourselves, we limit both. I have great difficulty explaining how I relate to Christ, and I can freely admit that my spiritual journey is often uncomfortable. But to quote Huxley's "Brave New World:"

Jesus as the second Adam fulfilled the first blessing that God gave to all of us
"Become fruitful "
The Second blessing God gave Adam & Eve is "to multiply". This is why the Messiah is coming back. Jesus wanted to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth but could not because he was killed and crucified.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I do not think that Jesus was trying to elevate himself to a status above all other human beings by forgiving sins.

If Jesus could forgive, why did he invoke G-d's power to forgive:

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34)
​

On its face, it appears Jesus did not forgive those who crucifed him. Was Jesus selective about who he forgave? Should we be selective?

This is why the Messiah is coming back. Jesus wanted to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth but could not because he was killed and crucified.

I have trouble reconciling this view to what the Bible says:

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of G-d does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of G-d is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)
​

It has also been translated as "the kingdom of G-d is amongst you." In either case, the Kingdom is here and now and not dependent on Jesus' second coming in order to become a present reality.

 

[soleil10]

If Jesus could forgive, why did he invoke G-d's power to forgive: [/quote}
In that case, he did not have the faith of the people as a condition for being forgiven.
Gods' heart was broken to see his filial son crucified. Jesus's faith was the condition for God to forgive mankind. For the thief on his tight who is the only one that showed faith in Jesus, he told him that he will be in paradise with him. He did not ask God

I have trouble reconciling this view to what the Bible says:

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of G-d does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of G-d is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)
​

It has also been translated as "the kingdom of G-d is amongst you." In either case, the Kingdom is here and now and not dependent on Jesus' second coming in order to become a present reality.

God's Kingdom starts in each one of us, then goes to the family level, the tribe level, the nation and finally the world. Look around you. Is the Kingdom of God here or is it Hell ?
Jesus is the first man that became one with God. He could not expand it physically by having his own family. He came as the bridegroom
It was much more than a single man, or bachelor on the cross. Jesus had the sinless and Godly seed.

 

[Dream]

Also, in all three synoptics what Jesus literally says is that 'The son of man' has power to forgive sins. Wat helps clarify that is the parallel version of the story told in Matthew where in verse 9:8 the crowds gave glory to God who "who had given such authority to men." That is very significant. That is, after Jesus talks about forgiveness the author of Matthew expressly comments that the power of forgiveness had been given to men. Regardless what your definition of 'Son of man' is, the power goes to 'Mankind'. Jesus is not claiming to change the law but he is definitely claiming authority to interpret how forgiveness works. This could be considered over and above what a prophet might do though its still in the same ballpark. I'm not exactly sure.

 

[seattlegal]

Also, in all three synoptics what Jesus literally says is that 'The son of man' has power to forgive sins. What helps clarify that is the parallel version of the story told in Matthew where in verse 9:8 the crowds gave glory to God who "who had given such authority to men." That is very significant. That is, after Jesus talks about forgiveness the author of Matthew expressly comments that the power of forgiveness had been given to men. Regardless what your definition of 'Son of man' is, the power goes to 'Mankind'. Jesus is not claiming to change the law but he is definitely claiming authority to interpret how forgiveness works. This could be considered over and above what a prophet might do though its still in the same ballpark. I'm not exactly sure.

Just what is it that causes us to repent from our sins and to forgive others? The Holy Spirit, perhaps? Is it necessary for a person to be a prophet in order for people to see the Holy Spirit working through that person? Methinks not.

 

[Dream]

Just what is it that causes us to repent from our sins and to forgive others? The Holy Spirit, perhaps? Is it necessary for a person to be a prophet in order for people to see the Holy Spirit working through that person? Methinks not.

I see what you mean and agree. The act of forgiving is not prophecy. What causes to repent and forgive is 1. suffering 2. knowing what is right 3. experiencing mercy. Suffering brings discipline, knowing what is right is direction & a means, but mercy must come from others. One is symbolized by life under Pharoah and we sympathize with each other, one is the escape and the means through the desert and the sea, three urged on by grace is the vision of a better place. All three are called blessed and are better than gold.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Also, in all three synoptics what Jesus literally says is that 'The son of man' has power to forgive sins.

I am unable to find the phrase "the power to forgive sins" anywhere in the Bible.

What helps clarify that is the parallel version of the story told in Matthew where in verse 9:8 the crowds gave glory to God who "who had given such authority to men." That is very significant.

It is significant that the authority derives from G-d and that its exercise would therefore refer back to G-d.

Regardless what your definition of 'Son of man' is, the power goes to 'Mankind'.

See my above comment.

The authority to forgive is essentially a transmission of a divine power. I make a distinction between having power and having authority. Being authorized is a dependent position within a hierarchy.

 

[seattlegal]

I am unable to find the phrase "the power to forgive sins" anywhere in the Bible.

It is significant that the authority derives from G-d and that its exercise would therefore refer back to G-d.

See my above comment.

The authority to forgive is essentially a transmission of a divine power. I make a distinction between having power and having authority. Being authorized is a dependent position within a hierarchy.

I think this goes back to the power of forgiveness being healing. (Jesus healed many by saying to them, "Your sins are forgiven.")

 

[Netti-Netti]

Jesus healed many by saying to them, "Your sins are forgiven."

This is known as speaking in the "divine passive." Jesus was merely pointing out that their faith had healed them.

In effect, Jesus was calling attention to the importance of faith. He was exercising G-d given authority - not a power inherent in him. The forgiveness occurs when the sinner accepts G-d's forgiveness in repentance, which is an aspect of personal faith.

See also
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=200094

 

[Dream]

I am unable to find the phrase "the power to forgive sins" anywhere in the Bible.

It is significant that the authority derives from G-d and that its exercise would therefore refer back to G-d.

See my above comment.

The authority to forgive is essentially a transmission of a divine power. I make a distinction between having power and having authority. Being authorized is a dependent position within a hierarchy.

I am actually referring to the phrase 'the son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins' from Matthew 9:6, but this may not be talking about things like murder.

'Sin' in the NT is a very broad term, covering the various kinds: purposeful sinning, mistakes, uncleanness and more. Having just 'Sin' to refer to everything is a little confusing, since the Jewish concept of sin is not quite so simple. In the Tanak sins are separated into different classes for instance: there is no sacrifice for murder, but sacrifice is required if a priest goes near a dead person. There are rules to teach various things.

If murder and other hate sins were included in this authority to forgive, I would go with 'Divine passive' like Netti Netti said. I am not absolutely clear about what the deal is, but I think its not about murder. When David committed murder, there was no sacrifice for him. Plagues and punishments were sent despite his apologies and sacrifices. This is still a factor among Christians or Hebrews could not use the phrase "if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"(10:26) It seems likely that the 'Sins' Jesus is forgiving are sins of uncleanness.

I think this goes back to the power of forgiveness being healing. (Jesus healed many by saying to them, "Your sins are forgiven.")

Leprousy and blindness were likely considered by Jesus to be due to the nation's sins, as he did not agree that a blind man was blind because of personal or family sin. Jesus healing blind and lepers likely meant forgiveness of Israel's sins as a whole. When Jesus healed lepers you can imagine the expectations that followed: 'Deliverance from Rome and restoration of the crown!' That the Romans were controlling the country was looked at as a punishment, like a disease. The Romans were never vanquished, however; and they crucified Israel.

It is possible that Jesus' message 'Your sins are forgiven' was told to a broken people who questioned how their temple could have been destroyed (a second time) and the crown of Judah lost. Let's not forget it was around this same time period that Hanukah was instituted and rabbinic Judaism started. 'Your sins are forgiven' could be a message to a people that were about to loath themselves for being the cause of the temple's fall, and maybe this message saved them. Instead of disintegrating they became industrious and became a force for change throughout the Roman empire.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I think it might help to view the scene with the Pharisees in light of other encounters Jesus had with them, which tended to revolve around unwieldy formalities or vanity and hypocrisy. Some of the encounters were also comments on the priestly modalities of the day. The notion of offering up spiritual sacrifices (I Peter 2:1-5) for example would have been a new development that would have competed directly with the temple priests' function of making sin offerings for others. The priest used to make atonements for an individual sin and the sinner would then be forgiven as a result (Leviticus 4:20, 4:26, 4:31, 4:35, 5:10).

According to jewishencyclopedia.com, the Pharisees were concerned with "strict observance of Levitical purity." There is some question about whether the Pharisees wanted to dilute the temple priests' traditional role in the atonement business and take forgiveness out of the realm of temple ritual. This is not apparent from the more common Bible translations, some of which say that the priest makes an atonement for sinners whereas others make it sound like it happens by itself on the Day of Atonement.
Leviticus 16:30 For it is on this day that atonement shall be
We'd have to look at original wording to sort this out.

At any rate, Jesus may have been a Pharisee himself and his interactions with them would likely have been debates on issues he was personally familiar with. Jesus may have been addressing the issue of forgiveness precisely because it was one the Pharisees had been working on. Jesus may have agreed with the Pharisees about the goal, but he may have differed with them on how to get there. Note that Jesus specifically identifies the locus of forgiveness in faith:

Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
(Matthew 9:2)
​

It seems to me that the crucial element in making forgiveness to work in your life is repentance, which requires faith. Becoming reconciled to G-d involves turning away from sin and reaffirming love of G-d.

In the course of a confession, a priest might ask the person confessing if there is remorse. That's because the priest's absolution is a pointless formality without the sinner's repentance. In this connection, it has been said that if the person persists in sin, that would mean they haven't really repented. If they had, they'd refrain from sin. This is why I think we are making too much of anyone having the power or authority to forgive another. I see it as a matter of forgiving oneself through a renewed relationship with Heavenly Father.