Sex Magik

Discussion in 'Magick' started by Vajradhara, Jul 8, 2004.

  1. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    The facts, please, on sex magik

    I am still waiting for Vajradhara to come up with the facts about sex magik.

    In the meantime I must apologize in regard to my attitude on sex magik for the following assumptions about its practitioners:

    1. That they are into promisucous sex;

    2. That they are not comfortable with people knowing the sex magik they are doing;

    3. That their kind of sex magik could be against the legal code of the civil society;

    4. That persons of leadership status are exploiting persons under them for sex;

    5. That they have no scientific knowledge about sexual hygiene, sanitationn, and the need for contraception;

    6. That their esoteric speculations about sex magik and whatever they intend to achieve in the so-called spiritual or psychic or mystical spheres are a lot of pure wistful thinking, all in their minds, without any shred of evidence in real life.

    I am apologizing because the practitioners of sex magik could be truly sincere, and they honestly believe in their speculations; so that on that ground I am not being fair to them.

    On the other hand, whatever of sincerity and honesty, if their sex magik should be in any way contrary to universal norms of sexual propriety and the legal enactments of civil society, if I have the power I will restrain them from their practice of sex magik; even though I don't condemn them on ethical grounds.

    So, Vajradhara, shall we have the facts, please.

    Pachomius2000
     
  2. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste all,


    all these posts... so many to respond to and so little time to do so!

    drat!

    the "key" for understanding the Taoist alchemical literature, as posited by Liu I-ming is the proper understanding of the symbolic language that is being used. this is critically important as a slight miss can lead one down a byway... which is how the Complete Reality school terms the alchemical praxis that deviate from a consciousness transformation practice.

    they single out the sexual and energy circulation schools of taoist praxis, in particular, for examples of misunderstanding of the terms.

    as time permits, i shall post some of the key terms and explanations in the Taoist thread. as an aside, some of this is currently in this thread:

    http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503

    an excerpt here:

    Nevertheless, later students did not look into the meaning of the code words and did not figure out the principles of the symbols. Seeing talk of gold elixir, lead, mercury, cauldron, and furnace, they thought it refered to the preparation of potions to ingest and the took to chemistry. Seeing talk of raven and rabbit, dragon and tiger, they thought it referred to the internal organs, and they took to visualization exercises. Seeing talk of other and self, yin and yang, male and female, they thought it referred to conjugal elixir, and they took to sexual yoga. Seeing talk of going along, reversing, and inverting, they thought it referred to forced effort and they took to energy circulation exercises. Seeing talk of nondoing to cultivate essence, they took it to mean utter quiessence, and they got involved in quietism. Seeing talk of doing to cultivate life, they thought it meant exercise, and they came to cling to form. These and other schools arose, all taking a deer to be a horse, taking a crow for a phoenix, not only without benefit to essence and life, but eve to the detriment of essence and life.
     
  3. Chela

    Chela Psychological Janitor

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    Re: Almost Roman Catholic sexual morality

    Please allow me to correct some misunderstandings.

    There is also the very important fact that celibacy is inverse fonication. It is just as important as the other half, because they are two sides of the same coin.

    Just to clear, I am a not a woman.

    My words are certainly esoteric speculations to those who have not lived them, yes. However, I am not speculating on anything, I am telling you the facts. There is exoteric science and there is esoteric science. If exoteric science says there is no such thing as the subtle body, then what accounts for my expereinces within the subtle body? Exoteric science, which has always lagged esoteric science, has no idea about quite a lot of things, even so, they will say, "You did not have an OBE, that was your brain misfiring nurons." Today, it is thought that what is commonly referred to as a soul lies within the electro-chemical functions of the brain. A scientist today will never accept that the electro-chemical movements of the brain are the result of a higher cause. Let the reader believe whomever he or she wishes.

    But there is direct relationships with the energies lost in orgasm and the energies used for by the brain. Have you not read the excerpts I posted on the value of saving the sexual energies? I believe it is one of the first posts in this thread.

    Saving the sexual energy is more widely known in the oriental scriptures.
    [font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][size=-2][/size][/font] Never have I slept without a sweetheart[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][size=-1]
    Nor have I spent a single drop of sperm.
    [/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][size=-2]
    - The Sixth Dalai Lama[/size][/font]

    [font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][size=-1]By relying upon an external consort... who has matured through Tantric Initiation, the yogi on the highest levels of the completion stage is led to Great Bliss... For this practice one must understand the oral instructions well and have complete control of the vital energies...
    [/size][/font]
    [font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][size=-2]- The Second Dalai Lama[/size][/font]

    [font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][size=-1]The sexual act performed normally may give a slight notion of the nature of this higher consciousness, but more than that it cannot do, since the energy, instead of being trapped and put to use, is expended… creating a new physical body instead of spiritual consciousness.
    [/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][size=-2]- Thubten Jigme Norbu

    [/size][/font]Perhaps one day official science will validate these very strange claims I am making. But, believe and live how you wish! I am not here to convince anyone, but only to clear up all the misinformation and false assumptions regarding this topic.
     
  4. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Re: Almost Roman Catholic sexual morality

    Namaste Chela,

    thank you for the post.

    ah... but you see.. it's irrelevant if western empirical science can validate these beliefs or not... which, i'll note, are not yours alone. the three references that you've listed are all from my school of Buddhism :)

    the subtle psychic body does exist, as you've clearly discerned. as for science... it's a good tool, but it is not infallible....even with relatively well known subjects... like, electrons, for instance. you've got to love that Heisenberg fellow :)
     
  5. Erynn

    Erynn Professional Madwoman

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    Yes, but everything in science is pretty much a theory. Even scientific "laws" have often been shown false. We can't have 100% proof of anything.

    Yes, but there's the additional issue of debate by appeal to authority -- it all depends on what authorities people within the debate accept. I don't accept the bible or other Christian holy texts as my spiritual authority, for instance, because I'm not a Christian.


    Regarding condoms:

    Here is what I originally said.


    I have worked solo. I have also done a couple of things that involved possession trance work and sexual magic, though it was not of the sort you're talking about. It was not intended in any alchemical fashion, but as deific contact, and to accomplish spiritual and magical goals. Therefore, I didn't count those experiences.

    What I can tell you is that they were extremely powerful experiences, that in one case condoms were involved, and that the condoms made absolutely no difference in the workings or the quality of the experience. In both cases, they were far more about the experience of deity than anything having to do with exchange of fluids -- which was, in fact, irrelevant. So, in my experience (admittedly quite limited), condoms have made no difference. I have worked with bodily fluids for other purposes on many occasions, but it was not in any way intended as sex magic, simply as a source of power for various workings.

    I suppose that my attitude is greatly influenced by the fact that some of the deities I work with and worship are known or assumed to have same-sex interactions as well as opposite-sex interactions. Some are shapeshifters, for whom gender and shape are irrelevant

    You have found what is true and right for you. This doesn't mean that it is, by its nature, true and right universally.
     
  6. Erynn

    Erynn Professional Madwoman

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    Re: Me too, I am dull.

    Unfortunately, no one can guarantee 100% safety when it comes to sex. Frankly, the truth is, the majority of people cheat on a spouse at one point or another. If you and your spouse have only ever been sexual with one another and have never had sexual contact (or a blood transfusion, or any other sort of contact that might expose you to a blood-bourne or sexually transmitted disease), then you're probably safe, but how do you know?

    Some people like sexuality for the pleasure it brings, and don't see that as sinful. I've never wanted children in my entire life, and took steps to prevent it. This doesn't make me a degenerate, it just means that I refuse to practice lifelong celibacy to accomodate my preference not to participate in world overpopulation. In early Celtic religion, sexual joy is one of the joys that leads to the turning of one's internal cauldrons to bring about wisdom and divine inspiration. It's not against my religion to engage in pleasureable sexual activity.
     
  7. Erynn

    Erynn Professional Madwoman

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    Regarding Chela's posts about what's "natural" --

    Contraception may be "unnatural", but let's look at some of the things that are natural:

    Homosexuality and bisexuality are natural, yet you condemn their practice. Polyamorous and hedonistic behavior is natural in humans and with many other species. Curiosity and experimentation are natural. A diversity of beliefs and practices are natural.It's natural for the sun to rise at dawn and set at sunset, yet we light our houses through the night. It's natural for us to be naked -- we were, after all, born that way -- yet we clothe ourselves.

    On the down side -- birth defects are natural, yet we work to correct or prevent them, just as we work to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Human urges to violence are natural, but most sane people condemn those urges unless they're in response to direct threats to life or limb. Giving birth is natural, yet we are so overpopulated that we threaten to overwhelm our planet with the demands on our environment.

    Given things like this, I can't see that something being "natural" is, by its own lights, a good argument either for or against a particular practice or philosophy. We are given wisdom to choose which parts of nature we accept, and which we change through our technologies. The definition of that "wisdom" changes from religion to religion, and from person to person within those traditions.

    I tend to think of lifelong monogamy as unnatural and really rather abhorrent, personally. That doesn't mean I'll condem people who want that for choosing that option, nor do I think they're going to suffer some kind of eternal tormet for making that choice. It really is just one more way to have a human relationship.
     
  8. Chela

    Chela Psychological Janitor

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    Re: Almost Roman Catholic sexual morality

    Yes. I have to admit that my expereinces were quite short lived and very few. I do not want to give anyone the wrong idea.
     
  9. Chela

    Chela Psychological Janitor

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    Unless 1 + 1 does not equal 2, then there is only one reality. The very popular theory that everyone has his or her own truth is just a justification for self-idolatry. Searching for the truth takes enormous sacrifice (Christ Will, the negative, or the Holy Denial), enormous effort (The Positive, the affirmation), and enormous comprehension (Holy Reconciliation).


    Please know that what I am stating on these forums is the exact knowledge kept secretly within every Occult Society and Esoteric Fraternity (before they became distinguished social clubs). To affirm this fact I will be quoting some passages from Dion Fortune's The Esoteric Philosophy of Love and Marriage. (Dion Fortune was an initiate of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn).

    Before throwing this argument into another Hegelian black hole, I want to tell you that in no way do I doubt the validity of your experiences. The truth is, what works for me will work for everyone, and what works for you will also work for everyone. I am already very aware of how all sexual magic works, not just the specific method I am prescribing. I am not speaking about what works, because I have already stated that all sexual function is magical (it is the very definition of magic), I wish to speak about the causes and effects of its use. What works is not simply "what feels right." What works is not simply "paranormal experience." Drugs “work.” It makes people happy, and some drug users are actually very productive members of society (my past self, for example). Drugs also open us up to clairvoyance, all sorts of visions, but it is not good to use drugs to do this, because it will damage the psyche. All of these things happened to me, but it was not for good. Furthermore, and for these reasons, I absolutely understand why you do not believe a single thing I say, and in fact, find me to be abhorrent.

    Sex magic with the use of drugs is a very dangerous combination. This is what L. Ron Hubbard refereed to as "soul cracking," and he is quite right.

    About nature:

    I agree that the term "natural" is ambiguous. Let us define it. Nature is within Time, and, Time is a circle that repeats itself (days, weeks, months, years, circling around a star...). Nature begins simple, and, through evolution, it convolutes itself. It forms a more complicated and more mechanical versions of itself. At some point, the machine breaks, society falls apart and some new society takes over who is on an upswing of evolution.

    When I say natural, I mean the state of nature before it was convoluted and beginning its down swing of destabilization.

    It is true that every society, religion, etc., has had its beginning, middle and end. The sexual "freedom" expressed today is nothing new, it existed within the ends of times of every society that ever fell. These are just the facts. We know that Christianity is becoming a dead religion for the same reasons that Paganism, the Aztecs, the Roman Gods, etc., became a dead religion. The Priests have become Jesters, the butts of jokes, all sexually related, just as they were when the orgies in Rome were laughing at the Holy Men outside the Temples of the Gods.

    All the same Gods and Goddesses of Paganism are the Angels and Cerebrum, Thrones, etc., of Christianity. To venerate one and not the other is incredulous. Sectarianism is due to misunderstandings and pride.

    The human soul also evolves, it also becomes more convoluted. This is actually a bad thing because the Great Reality is not convolution, but rather the supreme simplicity. The innocent men and women represented by Adam and Eve have become the arrogant, lustful, proud, angry, violent, ignorant people of today. This is what evolution has brought us.

    Likewise, no soul is created as they are born into bodies today. We have very old souls today, millions of years old, whose nature is now what their previous lives have conditioned them to desire. Nothing can happen without a cause. No birth de-effect is without its cause within a previous life. Every social situation and desire that one is born into has direct correspondence with causes that person set up in the previous life/lives.

    I do not doubt the desire that every heterosexual and every homosexual is born into today exclusively runs their entire lives. Today, heterosexuals desire another heterosexual, homosexuals desire another homosexual. We need to die to Desire and be born to the Will. The type of sexual magic I am talking of will radically alter the consciousness. Then we will know the difference between love and desire.

    The super-natural has many things within it. Demons and Angels are real, however you wish to call them. They are both beings with awakened consciousness. One has the awakening of consciousness in its freedom, the other in its conquest (desire). One is the Kundalini Fire serpent, the Bronze Serpent of Moses, the Nagas or Water Serpent, the Quetzalcoatl Feathered Serpent, the Staff of Mercury; the other is Satan's Tale, the Witch's Broom, the Kundabuffer, the Serpent that Apollo wounds, the Serpents of Medusa, the Egyptian Serpent that Moses' Serpent eats, etc., etc., etc. It is very, very, very, very easy to contact and to be a medium for a Demoniac Intelligence in comparison to converse and be taught by an angelic one. Both will talk about love and wisdom and dress in a tunic of sanctity. But do not be fooled by tricks of the mind. One wishes to enslave you and the other wishes to set you free.

     
  10. Erynn

    Erynn Professional Madwoman

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    Though this has nothing in particular to do with sexual magic, I have to say that I strongly disagree that my Gods and Goddesses are merely the "angels" or "demons" of Christianity.

    Same sex attraction and sexuality and other similar behaviors that you condemn exist throughout all societies and time periods. They are not exclusive to the periods when societies fall. They are not the cause of social destruction.
     
  11. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    An oscilloscope maybe?

    First, I must apologize for assuming that Chela is of the female gender. I was mislaid by the 'a' in the suffix of the name, Chela.


    About all kinds of mystical or psychic or Tantric or Buddhistic energies from sex, I will just limit myself to the question whether one day we can at least see them in the oscilloscope or some other detecting and displaying instrument from scientific technology.

    At the risk of being overly repetitious, I will continue with a litany:

    In your practice of sex magik, if you do get into any kind of STD's, do check in into the first dependable health center for the proper efficacious treatment and medication.


    As a curiosity, assuming that physical sex is involved in all these talks about sex magik -- what relevancy would it have without physical sex? does sex magik have an at least minor department that is occupied with the facts of STD's and unwanted pregnancy or how to prevent it?

    I invite the enthusiasts of sex magik to satisfy my legitimate curiosity here?

    Pachomius2000
     
  12. Erynn

    Erynn Professional Madwoman

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    Re: An oscilloscope maybe?

    All the sexual magicians of my acquaintance are very concerned with not contracting or passing along STDs and with preventing unwanted pregnancies if their magical practice includes heterosexual, vaginal intercourse. It has been a topic of discussion at every workshop on the subject I have been to. Annual STD screenings are urged, as well as screenings anytime they have sexual contact with someone outside of the usual relationship or relationships.

    Of course, solo sexual magic doesn't carry any of these risks.
     
  13. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste all,


    as an aside.... in binary math
    0+0=0
    1+0=1
    1+1=10 .

    the mathmatical "reality" of 1+1=2 relies on everyone using the same symbol set and same math base. if we change the symbol set or the numerical base, we change the math and thus find that using these types of "proofs" for the ontological reality that we all observe is likely to lead us into an unwarranted conclusion.

    the formula of 1+1=2 is only true for a base 10 system. in binary, as you've probably guessed, it's a base 2 system :)
     
  14. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    Re: An oscilloscope maybe?

    Erynn, that's very reassuring, and I must commend your circle of practitioners, from my own sense of civic concern, which might be mistaken and in a way true for busybodying.

    Tell me, sexual liberality as distinct from conventional or more properly traditional sexual morality of Western society does not apply to sex magik practititioners, or they do not ascribe to this kind of morality?

    As I said, to each his own.

    Pachomius2000
     
  15. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    Bring in the oscilloscope.

    What do you think, Vajradhara, will an oscilloscope one day display the waves or jagged lines of sex magik energies, as present and as distinct from what we have already been accustomed to see in conventional energies?

    Pachomius2000
     
  16. Erynn

    Erynn Professional Madwoman

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    Re: An oscilloscope maybe?

    Most of the sex magicians of my acquaintance are not monogamous, if that's what you're asking. One of them has been in a triadic relationship for over 10 years, and had been part of a shifting larger relationship since I first met them back in the mid 1980s. Many of my friends, whether or not they are sex magicians, are polyamorous.

    For some types of workings, they have found that it's helpful to have more than two people participate, for a variety of reasons. All are very careful about who they work with. They don't just allow random people in. Some sex magic among the folks I know is very much in the context of BDSM relationships and roles, and may not involve genital contact at all, but does involve sensual and sexual energies generated by their scenes. The energies generated are then focused upon and dedicated to the goals of the particular working.

    There are other groups locally that are far less stringent and picky, but they still insist on precautions against STD's and pregnancy. I don't know any Pagan-focused sex magicans who are serious about the path who are not aware and conscious of safety precautions.

    I can't speak for the folks who go out, buy a book, and decide they're gonna do "tantra" with their girlfriend/boyfriend.

    I have, however, known Wiccans in the past who insisted that you could not contract sexual diseases during Great Rite, which is utterly bogus, but that attitude has changed greatly during the AIDS epidemic. When you start seeing your friends dropping dead around you, it tends to change your attitudes about many things.
     
  17. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    Promiscuous, polyandrous, polygynous...

    Promiscuous, polyandrous, polygynous... Anything about polyspeci-ous? And of course multitudinous?

    What can I say about your kind of sex magik, but that as Brian said: I am leading a dull sexual life.

    I would not change now and not ever, too much inconvenience, besides I am bound to traditional Christian marriage and sexual morality. But the fact is that, without being censorious, I can't see any energetic pluses in what you describe to be sex magik.

    Isn't it a bit messy, with the plurality and variety of scents and fluids involved? And the determination of which partner or partners to consort with and when, that is an additional complication which settled existence is loath to be occupied with.

    Just joking.

    "Primum non nocere," first, do no harm. I guess that is the logical consequence in the way of prohibition when sexual repression is totally lifted and sex is freed of any taboo.

    Pachomius2000
     
  18. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Re: Bring in the oscilloscope.

    Namaste Susma,

    thank you for the post.

    unlikely, in my view.
     
  19. Erynn

    Erynn Professional Madwoman

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    Re: Promiscuous, polyandrous, polygynous...

    Well, sure, multitudinous ;) But polyspecious? Last time I looked, most animals aren't over the age of consent, and they can't get their parents' permission. Nor can they speak to give their own informed consent...

    My friends and others like them believe in responsibility, but one can be responsible without being either repressed or restrained (unless you happen to like bondage, of course ;).

    Nobody's asking you to change anything at all. It's certainly not a case of anything not forbidden being mandatory.
     
  20. Susma Rio Sep

    Susma Rio Sep Well-Known Member

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    No symbolism here in sex magik?

    Thanks, Erynn. You don't speak in symbols, am I right?

    I am glad to know about such sex in our society. As my old man used to say, "There's always something new to know about in this world".

    I feel a chill in my spine, but to be honest if I do have the moral guts I think I could go for the kind of sex magik you are into and others like you: there are indeed a number of pluses and no minuses.

    Sex is sex, whether magik or otherwise, provided the traditional natural thrills are always present, and we observe all the safety and contraceptive measures (if we would avoid unwanted pregnancies).

    What do you say about Vajradhara's kind of sex magik. If I see at this point correctly, he seems to be heading toward the symbolism approach to sex magik.

    Anyway, let's wait further and see where Vajradhara is in fact drifting to.

    Pachomius2000
     

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