Muslim intellectuals in the UK

so you want to study them or have a discussion with them
Bridge-building mostly ... I have Catholic friends who are into ecumenical discussion. Also for my own education.

Seyyed Hossein Nasr (if it's the same person) I know from my Perennial Philosophy days.

Thomas
 
"My Muslim intellectual, My Muslim intellectual for a horse . . . "

"Arabic Numerals" are actually Sanskrit Numerals from India.

Did you know that the so-called "Arabic Numerals" are NOT used by Arabs?

Did you know that the "Arabic" language is written & read right-to-left?

But did you know that the "Arabic" numerals as used today are written & read LEFT-to-RIGHT?

getting oriented,
Bhaktajan
 
"My Muslim intellectual, My Muslim intellectual for a horse . . . "

"Arabic Numerals" are actually Sanskrit Numerals from India.

Did you know that the so-called "Arabic Numerals" are NOT used by Arabs?

Did you know that the "Arabic" language is written & read right-to-left?

But did you know that the "Arabic" numerals as used today are written & read LEFT-to-RIGHT?

getting oriented,
Bhaktajan

Did you know that the peanut is NEITHER A PEA NOR A NUT????
Did you know that we PARK on a DRIVEway and DRIVE on a PARKway???
Did you know that the horned toad is NOT A TOAD????????
Did you know that the crayfish IS NOT A FISH?????


GAHHHHHHH!!!!!

THE HORROR!
THE HORROR!
THE HORROR!
 
Perhaps pedophilia and wife-beating are two of those "positive" aspects of Islam that the West needs to adopt, according to his proponents.

dogbrain,

your attitude is overly hostile. i very much doubt that muslimwoman would support his opinions (although it might be nice to get a response to my question)i don't have an issue with islam, but i do have an issue with "have you quit beating your wife?" tendentious lines of argument. my criticism is aimed at a specific individual for specific opinions which he holds, not to damn all muslims. what is yours aimed at?

try and be a little bit more circumspect, please.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
how about the side of him that i mentioned?

b'shalom

bananabrain

Salam BB

Sorry been a very busy week of job interviews.

I was really very shocked by the links you gave me. I downloaded his "teachings" from the links and am working my way through them, cross referencing as I go. Sorry but I like to research before giving an opinion .. you know how propagandist the internet can be at times.

I am giving no time to the "unindicted co-conspirator of the 1993 world trade centre bombing?" issue because how this list got out to the public domain just sounds like piffle to me and I believe if there was any proof they would have been at the very least arrested and interviewed but I find no evidence of that.


Will report back when time allows me to finish research but I am taking your links very seriuously.
 
Salam BB

Sorry to take so long to get back to this, for the past week the forum has been a blank white page for me ... or was it the same for everyone?

Didn't get the job I wanted ... bum!! I don't wear niqab in England, I wear it in Egypt because I look very different so I attract a lot of natural curiosity and attention and women in niqab are largely ignored there (in a nice way lol) but here if I wore niqab in my rural area of farmers and sheep it would have the same effect of attracting unwanted attention, so I take it off here.

Right Bilal Philips, here we go ... I might have to split this into different posts, I may have gone a bit OTT.

I started by reading the download you gave me a couple of times. There are some very interesting and salient points in it ... for example the education of girls and boys seperately ... there was something on Radio 4 a few days ago I listened to about a debate at the moment of whether girls and boys should take different exams .. so it's still a relevent subject here as well as elsewhere.

He also points out very clearly that the requirement for 2 female witnesses to 1 male witness is regarding business contracts ... something many scholars fail to point out - usually being followed with the "women are deficient" stuff - so he gets a brownie point for that one.

He points out that all of this only works if the husband is practicing his Islam ... good point and one forgotten by so many Muslim men who insist their wife must do x, y, z to be a good Muslim but they themselves do bugger all other than in front of people so they look good.

He also makes some interesting points about criminal justice and apostacy (although I find it a little strange that he goes right for Jews in Medinah and has missed the Quranic verse which states that apostacy began in Mecca before the hijrah). Will see if I can find a Saudi lecture on apostacy to see if he is stating the same case to both audiences, be interesting if he is.

Interesting to see his Western culture coming through on the issue of dogs. You know my views on Israel/Palestine but what he says about suicide bombings and Israel is just plain silly in my opinion.

However, in the first topic, polygamy, he makes some fundamental errors. In point 4 he states "there is normally a surplus of women in most human societies" and then sites figures from The New Encyclopedia Btirannica beginning with Russia ... which has more women than men. He also states that in Egypt the law requires a polygamous husband to obtain the permission of the first wife ... not so, I tried to have this put into my marriage contract but it was not allowable legally because a man is allowed to marry 4 wives and I can't take that right away from him, all we could add is that if my husband wants to marry a second wife he must inform me in writing before the marriage and I then have the right to divorce him if I choose to. He goes on to say that no wife in her right mind will give such permission ... actually in the very few cases of polygamy I heard of in Egypt the wife was often the one who suggested he marry again. So he seems to be jumping to some rather strange conclusions based on what he has been taught, rather than observed or experienced.

He then makes the huge leap into "a woman marrying four husbands would only increase the problem of surplus women" ... when actually in Russia it would solve the problem of surplus men!!


Then I went on to listen to some lectures ... I tired to pick subjects I would not usually listen to and tried to find ones where he was speaking in Saudi to see if and how he differs (bearing in mind that before you pointed this out I had only ever listened to him talking on very broad subjects for Western Muslim consumption).

This one in particular caught my attention because of it's relevence to the subjects you mentioned above about him:

The Duties of a Muslim Husband towards His Wife - English

The lecture is called "The duties of a Muslim husband to his wife" and is a lecture then Q&A session.

I listened to the whole thing twice, once to hear what he said and then again to pick up on what he wasn't saying .. the second listen was an eye opener.


First of all the two pages of the download you directed me to, then we'll get to the lecture because one naturally flows into the other ....

Page 6 marriage at puberty.

To be honest this is not really a cut and dried subject for me.

I have attended a wedding in Egypt where the bride was 16 (the legal age to marry in Egypt) .... but only if I'm a flying pink elephant. When I enquired about her age I was told she was 14 .... I think even that was stretching the imagination a bit looking at the stage of development of her body. However, the groom was 22 and they were clearly both happy with the marriage. To her it was a right of passage and she was chuffed to naffi breaks to be getting married before her sisters and friends. To her family it was marry him or they would all have to face the consequences of what might happen out of wedlock.

Of course that is totally different to an 11 year old girl forced into marriage with an old man to pay her fathers debts off, as we hear about in some countries and roughly supported in the download.

I noted that Mr Philips extolled the virtues of Aisha saying she became the leading female scholar of her time and conveyed an enourmous body of Islamic law ... very true and may Allah (swt) reward her for it but not every young girl gets to marry the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). I also noted an absence of discussion on the significance of this marriage, how it brought solidity in the relationship between the Prophet and the man who would become the first Caliph, how it helped to unite the Muslims, etc.

All in all I feel he is encouraging a practice that most Muslim countries have moved on from, given they all have higher marriage ages by law. I was also troubled by the amount of "yeah but you lot do this" in his explanations, two wrongs never make a right. In the UK our taxes pay for the 11 and 12 year old girls that have babies and still need to go to school, which demonstrates that puberty may be a defining factor in readiness for marriage but it hardly explains Islamic practices and certainly doesn't mean Brits can't question the practice of child marriages based on what happens here.

Page 9 wife beating

Now here he appears to be changing his story to suit the audience. He states in the download "the Quraanic permission given is specifically in the case of divorce, as a last resort to save the marriage" but in the link I gave you above, to a Saudi audience of converts, he states "the allowance of hitting your wife ... this allowance is there for cases where it becomes necessary". That sounds a far cry from specifically in the case of divorce. It also bothers me that Yusuf Hamza can state this Quranic permission is only for matters where the wife is disobeying Islam ... as divorce is permitted in Islam why should she be hit??!

In the download and the lecture (at about 27 minutes) he talks about hitting and in what context it is allowed. He then resites a hadith "you have rights over your women, that they do not allow anyone you dislike into your home. If they disobey you you may spank them ...".

Now lets look at the Quran:

Sura An-Nisa 4:34 (Yusuf Ali translation and commentary Tahrike Tarsile publication)

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husbands) absence what God would have them guard. As for those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)."

The commentary - Or the sentence may be rendered "and protect (the husband's interests) in his absence, as God has protected them". If we take the rendering as in the text, the meaning is: the good wife is obedient and harmonious in her husband's presence, and in his absence guards his reputation and property and her own virtue, as ordained by God. If we take the rendering as in the note, we reach the same result in a different way "the good wife, in her husband's absence, remembering how God has given her a sheltered position, does everything to justify that position by guarding her own virtue and his reputation and property.

Philips never mentions a wifes virtue or her husband's absence, only her disobedience and his right to hit her. He uses a translation of the Quran which in this verse says "men are the protectors of women because Allah favoured them over women". That speaks volumes and may explain a few things.

It seems rather obvious to me that a Muslim woman wouldn't be entertaining anyone in her home alone if her husband were present, therefore he must be absent .. which explains the above hadith. Absolutely I am instructed in many ways to guard my virtue, which is also linked to my husband's reputation particularly if he is away. I wonder why Mr Philips doesn't bother with any of this?!


The issue of rape in an Islamic marriage is rather a difficult one. In my understanding the Arabic word for rape is to take something you are not legally entitled to (covers all sorts of things but rape is included because you are illegally taking a womans body/virtue/modesty). As a man is legally entitled to have sex with his wife he cannot be charged with illegally taking something he is not entitled to, as clearly he is entitled to have sex with his wife.

I was gobsmacked when I read the very small piece he has written on this subject and believe he is leading men down a very dangerous path by not going into detail.

I remember reading about a Saudi tv personality, in their press, who had published pictures of her black and blue face after her husband had beaten and raped her ... this is the sort of behaviour he is encouraging, not by what he says but by what he doesn't say.

He doesn't say that if a husband forces himself on you this would necessarily cause some harm ... am damned sure if my hubby tried to force me he'd have to beat the living daylights out of me first .... but even if he left a single bruise on my body this would allow me to divorce him because it is haram. He doesn't point out that a man who forces his wife is going to make a wife that hates him and wants a divorce ... and divorce is hated by Allah (swt). He says nothing of the care and tenderness a husband and wife must, by Islam, show each other or refer to the hadith where the Prophet says the best of men are best to their wives/families. He just talks about duties and mens responsibilities are only to provide food, shelter and clothing for his wife .... you have to ignore a large percentage of Islam to come to that blinkered conclusion.

All in all I am not very impressed with Mr Philips having researched him. His lectures, while not stating a distaste for women often refer to "females" as though we are a difference species (considering he has a good grasp of the english language the use of the word women would seem more appropriate) and his recommended reading for "female" converts living in Saudi is a book he wrote for high school kids on the basics of Islam .... wouldn't you think a convert having taken the decision to move to Saudi would be a little beyond high school basics?! I can't put my finger on it but there are some unpleasant undertones to his view of women.

I was also astonished at the end of his lecture when a brother asked if they (the men) could ask some questions and he sounded totally exasperated at this bizarre request ... given that the lecture was titled the duties of a Muslim husband to his wife wouldn't you expect men to also ask questions? He also said near the end of the Q&A session "the ignorance that has come over them" .... refering to women of course, as though men are all upstanding Muslims but women have lost their way .... HA!!

So he is off my 'listen to' list and I shall not be suggesting anyone else listens to him.



As an aside, this was quite an interesting article which I thought you might like reading (very short but one to watch I reckon).

single - The Jamestown Foundation[tt_news]=36386
 
Didn't get the job I wanted ... bum!!
sorry to hear it - keep on trying!

don't wear niqab in England, I wear it in Egypt because I look very different so I attract a lot of natural curiosity and attention and women in niqab are largely ignored there
hmmm - doesn't sound like the religious reasons you generally give when rationalising your decision to wear it...

for example the education of girls and boys seperately ... there was something on Radio 4 a few days ago I listened to about a debate at the moment of whether girls and boys should take different exams .. so it's still a relevent subject here as well as elsewhere.
uncontroversial from my point of view - but it should be based on the evidence, not on some form of right for religious parents to avoid education in basic things like biology.

He also points out very clearly that the requirement for 2 female witnesses to 1 male witness is regarding business contracts ... something many scholars fail to point out - usually being followed with the "women are deficient" stuff - so he gets a brownie point for that one.
so women are still only worth half as much as men when it comes to business contracts? you don't think *that's* a problem? i suspect that muhammad's first wife would not have approved - wasn't she a pretty serious businesswoman?

I find it a little strange that he goes right for Jews in Medinah and has missed the Quranic verse which states that apostacy began in Mecca before the hijrah
you find it "a little strange"? seeing as he hates jews, i don't find it at all strange that he singles us out.

I tried to have this put into my marriage contract but it was not allowable legally because a man is allowed to marry 4 wives and I can't take that right away from him
and there isn't some way for your husband to rescind this right? we figured this one out in the C13th, with the ban of rabbenu gershom on polygamy - also, we're enjoined to observe the "law of the land". i can see your workaround makes sense, however and i am, after all, a pragmatist, you seem to retain sufficient leverage.

All in all I feel he is encouraging a practice that most Muslim countries have moved on from....He uses a translation of the Quran which in this verse says "men are the protectors of women because Allah favoured them over women". That speaks volumes and may explain a few things.
to put it mildly. but then again, he is trying to turn the clock back to the middle ages in most respects.

The issue of rape in an Islamic marriage is rather a difficult one. In my understanding the Arabic word for rape is to take something you are not legally entitled to (covers all sorts of things but rape is included because you are illegally taking a womans body/virtue/modesty). As a man is legally entitled to have sex with his wife he cannot be charged with illegally taking something he is not entitled to, as clearly he is entitled to have sex with his wife.
this is not how we see it at all - in no case can the "entitlement" be enforced (in the Torah the word used implies coercion by any means whatsoever).

So he is off my 'listen to' list and I shall not be suggesting anyone else listens to him.
well, i'm glad i've done some good in this case; it's a shame that not everyone is as rigorous in their thought processes.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
hmmm - doesn't sound like the religious reasons you generally give when rationalising your decision to wear it...

Somewhere on this forum are my posts from when I first decided to wear niqab and I state very clearly why I made that decision .. there is even a post from after I have been to Al Azhar and they recommended I remove niqab when travelling home to UK because it was designed as protection not to bring unwanted attention or problems. Over time my views of niqab have developed but my recent posts have largely been from the point of view of women who wear niqab because they believe it is fard (I do not but respect their right to believe it is).

uncontroversial from my point of view - but it should be based on the evidence, not on some form of right for religious parents to avoid education in basic things like biology.
My point was simply that it is something we are still looking at. I went to a number of boarding schools, some all girls and some mixed and in my experience it was much better for my education in an all girls school, it was simply easier to concentrate and I found in some subjects the girls were held back by the boys. Biology is a great example, in an all girls school we just got on with it but in mixed schools there was a lot of giggling and blushing ... whether the biology teacher was male or female also made a difference.

If it turns out through studies that seperate classes are the best way to educate I hardly think we can look at conservative religious groups and say they are wrong simply because they didn't do studies.

so women are still only worth half as much as men when it comes to business contracts? you don't think *that's* a problem? i suspect that muhammad's first wife would not have approved - wasn't she a pretty serious businesswoman?

No I don't think it's a problem. If you read the subject it refers to women's memory of the contract if they need to go to court to give evidence. As a majority of Muslim women are housewives and mothers, not businesswomen, they are unlikely to remember all the details of the contract in the same way men, or indeed businesswomen, would remember it. I think the Prophet's first wife would be just as aware of this general situation and the need to protect the larger society and not a minority of educated working women.

and there isn't some way for your husband to rescind this right? we figured this one out in the C13th, with the ban of rabbenu gershom on polygamy - also, we're enjoined to observe the "law of the land". i can see your workaround makes sense, however and i am, after all, a pragmatist, you seem to retain sufficient leverage.

We also have to observe the law of the land so hubby knows in UK he has no right to practice polygamy. Egypt is a different matter and they are unwilling to pass a law which contravenes a right Allah (swt) has granted. That said it 's estimated that less than 4% of Egyptians live in polygamous marriages and the number goes down each year. Hubby can allow me in our marriage contract to divorce myself but I asked him not to include it, since I am aware of how short tempered and hot headed I am :D

this is not how we see it at all - in no case can the "entitlement" be enforced (in the Torah the word used implies coercion by any means whatsoever).

It's not really a subject I know enough about to comment properly, as such a thing would never enter hubby's head. I did ask him about it when I first heard someone talking about it and hubby explained rape in a marriage would have to involve so many sins against the Quran and Sunnah, that a man would have to be in essence a rapist to even attempt to rape his wife.

Neither husband or wife can deny themselves sexually to the other (unless ill or for psychological reasons) but you have to look at the big picture to understand this doesn't mean one spouse can force the other pysically.

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (al-Rum 30:21)

I'll do some studying of the subject and report back my findings.
 
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