overcome by bliss

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by wil, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    And using your distinct methodology what percentage of this million have you benefitted by your interchange?
     
  2. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    i know what you mean, the super spiritual type desperate for recognition of this.

    we are all the same at the end of the day, just people.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    But are we?

    Yes we are people. But what kind of people are we?

    We have choice with every encounter, we can educate, we can lift people up, we can have lively discussions, or we can denigrate and put people down.

    Me thinks our encounters with other people mean something.

     
  4. fadded blue jeans

    fadded blue jeans New Member

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    i m sorry who ever posted this left some thing VERY IMPORTANT out you also should know about .. so i put it right after these verses ..
    :D

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’


    Matthew 5:48
    Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    so tell me even if you get the first part done how you going to get the second done ..
     
  5. fadded blue jeans

    fadded blue jeans New Member

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    i will tell you how

    you see

    all that was posted was law that came through moses the law cant save you me or any one



    Romans 1:17
    For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
    Romans 1:16-18


    faith in what righteousness?

    John 1:17
    For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    John 1:16-18 (in Context) John 1 (Whole Chapter)


    You Are My Righteousness - YouTube
     
  6. fadded blue jeans

    fadded blue jeans New Member

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    Does that mean we should not feed the hungry or help the sick ?

    No

    there godly things that you can do what would make them ungodly is placing your trust in them to save you .. Rather than placing your trust in jesus,, who has saved you..
     
  7. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Meister Eckhart is probably the greatest Christian mystic known to history, except that I am not Christian his descriptions are exactly like mine... where he says Christ, I say the Ultimate or similar, this is the only difference.

    I have been called pretentious in this thread, but I do not say I am better than anyone else, nor have I said it is not possible for another to experience the same - of course the experiencer and experienced are not distinct, this is why I say experience.

    A problem is that words cannot convey what has happened even if I use the most correct words possible. For instance, when I say "I", I know it is not referencing my ego or this body or anything similar... it only references this witness, the watcher of this mind and body. You will read such statements and infer I must have an ego, it is not the case.
     
  8. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    I would not provide devices on this forum if I considered myself special for reaching this state. It is funny though that it is Christians and people of other faiths which have judged my statement. Every religious founder has said they are the only way, they claim to be avatars or prophets, messengers empowered by God or the messiah a group is waiting on. For me, this is all utter foolishness, we all have the capacity to reach to the heights of these men it is only that I already have. I have thus invited others to join me, but this is pretentious?

    For me, the organized religions are as toys, you are going through the motions of something important but it is not real. We give our daughters dolls to play with, we are teaching her how to become a mother but she is not one yet - she will put the doll away when she is done playing.
     
  9. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    You have said Jesus has freed you from obligation, yet you are defending obligations of the Christians...

    For me, helping those in poor conditions only creates a dependence and thus is not good at all. I have spoken much about this on this site, but if you are doing these things purely out of compassion it is perfectly good. Just understand that what you are doing is only prolonging their suffering, we never provide enough to do anything but keep others alive.

    The trouble is that most Christians and some other faiths do such things because they think it will assist them in entering heaven. This is an utterly disgusting intention, outwardly you are helping another but inwardly you are being totally selfish.
     
  10. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Also, if Jesus has saved anyone, why does poverty and sickness still exist? Nothing has improved at all since he walked this planet...

    You cannot be saved by another, Jesus has provided devices to save yourself - this is how he has saved you, through contemplation of the trinity and your place in the body of Christ you can be saved from your anguish. Through your love of Jesus, you can develop the space necessary for the baptism of fire. Most Christians are perfectly happy to hear from their priest that all they have to do is believe though, it is a deadly sin: sloth - doing the absolute minimum necessary. You have looked around and seen that others have all these things they must do, but all Jesus asks for is love.

    You have not loved and trusted enough though to be baptized by fire, nothing at all has happened to you so how can you claim to be saved? Use Jesus' devices if you love him, don't just say you love him because he allows you to be the most lazy.
     
  11. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    Bliss is the light at the end of a tunnel before you learn it is really an oncoming train. There is a time for bliss and a time for adrenaline.
     
  12. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    I am clearly in the middle on this one. Seems to me the world has gotten a little better in the last 2000 years. Call me an optimist, but no longer having the Black Death or the pyre to worry about is an improvement.

    On the other side it seems to me that Fadded Blue Jeans' arguement about obligation is what would justify burying one's head in the sand. If one has no obligation or duty to do good, why do it?

    Pax et amore vincunt omnia. Radarmark
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    We do it because it is worthwhile. It benefits us in the here and now, none of us knows about the hereafter.
     
  14. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    If I do something because it is good or moral or worthwhile, I do it because I should, as an obligation or duty (if only to myself), benefiting myself or the other. If I have no obligation or duty to do the good, what would the benefit be?

    I think I am missing something here.
     
  15. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    in some ways we are all the same apparently as there is only 1 I, so this aspect is the same.

    sometimes you need to be honest with people, and this honesty may offend.

    communication on a forum like this is limited, so are these even real encounters with people ? often i think that they are not.
     
  16. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Question is, if you are doing it because you will benefit, is it really a good or moral act? It is nothing but selfishness... why do you need something in return for doing the right thing?

    I have already brought up where the word sin comes from in our language, it means self - in the East it would be the lower self, atman. It is interesting though, serpent and satan, these words come from the same root originally. I would suggest you look into your current motivations...
     
  17. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    By benefiting myself I mean I do it because I have a motivation, my act has a cause. You missed the reat of the phrase "or the other", by which I mean I do some acts out of sympathy or altruism or utilitariamism. Ethics is hard, but I do not think either intention or consequence are, by and in themselves, are what we should consider.

    Pax et amore omnia vincunt, radarmark
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Let me correct that. Meister Eckhart is probably the greatest Christian mystic known to popular history ... and the confusion and misinterpretation of his homilies is a matter of note, and I am obliged to say that anyone who bases an argument on Eckhart alone has probably got it wrong. You really have to have a grip of his thinking in the context of the tradition before you can do that.

    I would say that Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite, an unknown Syrian Christian of the 6th century, is probably a greater mystic than Eckhart, certainly he was prior to him, and certainly there is nothing in Eckhart that is not in the Dionyisian Corpus.

    Having said that, what kind of mystic was Eckhart. We have no evidence and no indication he ever 'experienced' a mystical transfiguration, although as I see it, that marks a more authentic form of Christian gnosis — the notion of 'mystical experience', the kind of which you write, and the kind of thing understood currently, is a post-enlightenment attitude more in line with secular scientific thinking than any spiritual tradition.

    Let me repeat, the great spiritual traditions reject all phenomena not, as you suppose, to keep people like you in your place but rather, in fact, because they know something which you, as yet, do not, that such phenomena are a side-show and a distraction ... often a glamour or the ego ... that you can't see it is understandable, you have yet to pass on from where you are. That you don't see it is the result of setting yourself up as the benchmark by which all experience is measured, the arbiter of all truth ...

    So in short I would say, you are on the road ... but you are not there yet.

    In passing, let me mention Marguerite Porete, a little-known French woman who was burnt at the stake for heresy in 1310. She was the author of what is now recognised as a spiritual classic, The Mirror of Simple Souls.

    Unlike Meister Eckhart, it is unlikely that Porete will be rehabilitated, being too obscure and lacking sufficient support for her case. The Mirror was published privately and anonymously after her death, it's author remaining unidentified until 1946.

    The title refers to the simple soul united with God. Marguerite ultimately says that the soul must surrender itself, whose logic and conventions, shaped by experience of the world, cannot fully comprehend God nor plumb the depths of Divine Love. She refers to the "Annihilated Soul" as one that has given up everything to God through Love — even itself.

    The reality of this surrender of even one's own soul to God underpins the Beatitudes ... a state of divine grace, but a state which transcends, or rather by-passes, the experiential altogether. It has been variously called Divine Ignorance (Nicholas of Cusa), or Unknowing, and famously, The Ürgrund of Eckhart, or the Dark Night of the Soul of St John or the Cross.

    "Beloved, let us love one another, for love cometh of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love. .. [and] he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." (First Epistle of John 3: 7-16).

    Poete is entirely orthodox in her expression of man being united with God through love, of returning to one's very source of being, the unity of the Knower and the known. In this she connects with the ideas of Eriugena, whose writings, also banned and also circulated privately, had an influence on Eckhart. Porete and Eckhart had acquaintances in common, but we can only speculate as to whether they had access to, or discussed each other's ideas.

    No, I'm afraid that's your assumption. In your writings you evidence an experiential quality of the internal unity of the created order ... this is the 'mystical experience' so often sought by the contemporary seeker, but it's not what is spoken of in the Christian Tradition.

    They do not convey the content of the experience, but they do tell of it sufficiently for me to respond as I do.

    Then you would be an inert entity, which patently you are not.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Here I think is an interesting debate.

    Whilst it might shape some beliefs, I don't think it does in the Abrahamic Traditions.

    Questions of ethics, morality and pragmatism are relevant to the material domain (as is the current scientific discussion to see if morality is chemically-based), but they do not apply, or rather are not of the first order, in spiritual discussion.

    Whether motivated by the love of God, or the fear of God (the latter being grossly misunderstood by the modern mindset — the two are almost synonymous, as the poetry of the Abrahamic Traditions amply evidences) the faith-founded desire to do good is for the sake of God, and for the sake of creation, it is a response to the obligation of the gift of being ... and 'obligation' means recognition of a gift, and the responsible act of its proper usage.

    +++

    There is in culture a term called 'quality time', a term meant to imply time put aside for just you and the other, being it your family, friends, hobby, whatever.

    But how much quality time do people put aside for God? Too often I hear of people doing what they enjoy doing, then validating it as 'God's work'. Well I do that, and if I was free from financial constraint, I'd be doing theology morning, noon and night; reading it, writing it, teaching it, preaching it ... you'd find me somewhere in Cappadocia ... but that's not quality time between God and me ... that's me.

    Quality time with God is a one-to-one. It's doing things God has asked that we do. Quality time is an engagement with the Mysteries: Prayer, Scripture, the Liturgy and the Sacraments ... that's one of the understandings behind the teaching that the Liturgy carries on outside of time and space.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  20. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Lunetik
    I find reading books on philosophy and ethics interesting (pleasurable) and educational (developing me as a human). The first is selfish, but is it selfish to want to become a better person?
     

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