God....He or She

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by brijesh, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    So Hell is God's last mercy. But it is an eternal persistent suffering.

    Eternal persistent suffering. That's a mercy? Your God and I apparently have a very big disagreement about what mercy is.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Nobody can make you mad, nobody can offend you, nobody can make you hate....


    These are all choices...

    Again...any G!d that can't make better choices than that... ain't no god. imo
     
  3. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    So God hates you!?
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I think that's contextual, as the use of the feminine in respect of the Divine is evident in Scripture, but there was some confusion over the orthodox Christian concept, and various Platonic, gnostic and pagan ideals.

    The Russian Orthodox Church delineates between 'Sophiology' and 'Sophianism', the latter covering ideas espoused by Vladimir Soloviev (1853 - 1900) who's spiritual writings became popular and which presented Sophia as a kind of muse ... perhaps taken somewhat literally by many and were interpreted in a rather gnostic-pantheist manner that one critic referred to as the product of the 'turbidity of erotic delusion.'

    OK. But the Catholic Church defines the predicates 'Father' and 'Son' as signifiers of an external relation, not an inhering nature, and that should not be overlooked.

    No, that's not right at all. Our Lord's gender is according to His human nature, not His divine nature.

    I would say that the offence is against wisdom, not God, and wisdom is invariably portrayed as feminine, and of God (not a God), in Scripture.
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Please remember that the Bible addresses man who is more informed by his passions than his perspicacity; it speaks in human language, and when it refers to God in human terms, the (informed) commentaries always reflect man back upon his own nature.

    Thus is is not God who is offended by sin, it is us, because the sin separates us from God.

    Christ left the commandment to love thy neighbour, and this was not contingent nor conditional. So if you hate a sinner, you break that commandment.

    We should hate the sin because sin brings us all down. One person's sin reflects badly on everyone.

    So your God is the God of Infinite Hate?

    There's nothing merciful about eternal suffering ... what could be worse?
     
  6. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I agree with you. God is a god that is love. I believe hell is more like gods mental hospital than a place of suffering. God hates the sin not the sinner.
     
  7. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Why do people consider the death penalty harsh then? Isn't that the same as ending someone's suffering in prison?

    Eternal suffering is still existing. In Islam Heaven and Hell both have differing levels. Some levels are no more suffering than life now. While this is based mostly off Hadith, so is the idea that some will only be in Hell for a certain time, then will enter heaven.

    God (Allah) has given his commands, and now we have the choice. If we choose heaven, we will do as commanded, or at least to what we think we are commanded. If we choose to disobey, we get thrown in prison (hell). Why must it be bad if someone chose that? If someone chooses not to believe in God, that is their own doing. Now the person might be Hindu (or some other ideology), never heard of what Abrahamics call God (or Allah), But I have no reason to believe that if they do not receive the message, and are righteous in their own path, then they will be successful as well.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    hadiths....

    if they come not from the prophet.... how are they treated?

    Some accept this hadith and say that one is bad...others vice versa....

    Why any hadiths?
     
  9. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Hadiths weren't as preserved as Quran. And they were written kindof in the same way the NT was, records of what people heard and saw Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH) do. The difference is that it is documented who is claiming that a Hadith was said or done. Some Hadiths we consider strong. The books of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, among others, is a collection of these. Some of these chains are strong as in Abu Bakr (a companion) Heard Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH) say something. Or saw him do something.

    Hadith

    The link above has some good information regarding Hadith. If you do not agree with a Hadith because you believe it is wrong, there is no requirement to follow it. Now is that the same as saying I don't like that, I'm not going to follow it? No. There has to be a reason. For instance a Hadith states that Prophet Mouhammed says a thing. But that thing contradicts what is in the Quran or something from a strong Hadith or the chain looks like a 90s teenage sitcom of the girls locker room, it can be disregarded. Or followed if the individual (truly) sees no fault in it.

    Many Hadith are strong, and if followed lead to a much more stable society. Maybe not the "freedom" we enjoy here with daughters showing everyone all that they have to offer a man, but order and peace nonetheless.
     
  10. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    What about allatu and the black stone at chobar?
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    lol....leads to a question...why are men allowed to show all they have to offer to a woman?

    Why can a Muslim man have his shirt off, his face exposed, his shape revealed, yet a woman must hide?
     
  12. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I dont believe that is right. The thought is that they would provoke a man like saying men have no self control. I do know that a woman dresses in black and walks behind a man to symbolize the imbalance that occurred due to the fall but I think progression and a restoration of that balance would be for her to walk beside her man and her not have to wear the symbolic garb.
     
  13. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Umm... not exactly... Not a bad try though. At least not in Islam. I believe this were true in the Torah, and Pauline texts as to the reason women are supposed to cover.

    First off, Men are supposed to remain clothed around women he is not related (goes a little further than blood relatives but suffice to say relatives) to. Most Scholars that say otherwise, use the reasoning that women aren't as tempted by the body of a man as a woman is tempted by the body of a woman. Technically a woman does not Have to wear all that clothing. She should choose to, but religiously speaking she cannot be forced to. It is also being discussed amongst many Muslims that the headscarf is not required. The Quran talks specifically about the breasts needing to be covered (including cleavage) as it talked about Hijab (personal coverings) that Allah told the women that their scarves should be draped over the front for their own protection. Also for both men and women the privates must be covered. The Hadith that most would use (strong hadith) says that when a woman asked Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH) what could be shown he pointed to his face and hands. He did not say to cover the hair specifically, so IMO it is kindof a grey area. It was a commonality for women to cover their heads at that point in time all over. but the women would regularly show off their cleavage.

    Edited to add, there is also no Quranic nor to my knowledge Hadith reference to women should wear black. I can try to explain why I think people decided to start pushing those POV later.
     
  14. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    she can be forced to. my sisterinlaw was stationed in the middleeast and the women were not allowed to leave the base unless they wore the full covering or they could be harmed. so to say its considered to be chosen it may be that way in america but not so in some middleastern countries. this is reality over there.
     
  15. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    The last apartment complex I lived at my husband and I were at the pool. There was a muslim family who came to the pool. The man and his wife were in shorts and children were in bathing suits. The elderly woman they were with was in a full burqa except she didnt cover her face. My husband made a comment about it and told him , Maybe she wants to wear that and she has that right in our country to wear what she wants. The head of that family is like the muslims that big joe is talking about but not all muslims as some women are forced into wearing that.
     
  16. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    We are agreeing on certain aspects, but you bring in the governments and people of the middle east. I would say in most Muslim countries, that they have imposed law that women MUST wear Hijab including headscarf and concealing clothing. In Saudi, I believe a veil is even required. This is not what I am referring to. I am referring to the religion. The state might force people to follow, that does not mean Islam does so. I personally have said many Muslims seem to focus too much on what if what I think is good is bad, and too little on what if what I think is bad is good. I've heard the phrase "what if Allah asks you on the day of Judgement about..." (insert situation here). And it is a legit concern. But people take it too far. Things like what if Allah asks me why I allowed my wife to sit in the front seat of my car. This is not a sin, by any measure. It is said that it is better for a man to lead, which from Hadith and Tawheed we derive it to be a security issue. That doesn't make it a commandment, which many govts seem to want to force. Forcing people to do what is right leads them to hate what is right. It is another form of oppression, which is clear that Allah hates oppression.
     
  17. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I have also stated that to my husband , that the religion teaches things differently from what is going on politically and with radicals.
     
  18. MysticMansion

    MysticMansion Interfaith Forums

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    I have read many of the replies to my statement. I recognize in the critiques of my statement only the use of destructive philosophy without the use of reason as I would have expected.

    Science pretends that God does not exist because He is not measurable by their limited means. We do have many material phenomenon that can be measured that are supernatural. If there are supernatural things here then there is a God. Simple all other ideas are then stupid and redundant.

    History is filled with saints who have done supernatural things that we call miracles. Sometimes these miracles have remaining matter that exists supernaturally. These object defy all scientific explanation. They break the laws of the universe. Then atheism becomes a pretty unlearned position to hold.

    Unfortunately to my knowledge these events that are provable seem only to happen through Catholic people that we call saints, or as the bi-product of Catholic sacraments. This means that either Catholics are so much smarter then everyone else we have methods of creating matter supernaturally which defy scientific study or God for some reason prefers to work through the Catholic church. The only church on earth that has a covenant with God through His apostles.

    Some people think that the first covenant Judaism was somehow very important in its message. The reason of the first covenant which came to us through Abraham was to nurture one group of people to transform their lives to the point that one small group of its followers became pure enough and holy enough that The Blessed Virgin Mary could be born into this community so that then Christ could come to end the first covenant and establish His eternal and eternally planned primary covenant the Catholic Church. The Apostles were the superior spiritual leaders in God's Plan then were Abraham or Moses.
     
  19. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Guess it is all in a viewpoint. You state science pretends God does not exist. I don't believe that is accurate. Science's stance is that there is no way through science to prove there is a God(s). Science does not pretend. It speculates, sure. And speculation is always stated as such. The most that can be said is that science can neither prove, nor disprove God.

    Miracles are almost always from long ago, safe from any modern scrutiny and veracity. Convenient. I am unaware of any provable events when it comes to miracles. Can you supply evidence for a few miracles that you view as having been proven?

    You said "If there are supernatural things here then there is a God." There is no way to prove that if supernatural events do really occur, that MUST mean there is a God. What if supernatural events occur from natural but not yet understood powers of the human mind? It seems to me that a lot of people on sites like this love to abuse logic with if/then statements where B does not necessarily have to follow A.
     
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    There are no miracles and it is all a miracle.

    folks miraculously heal from a disease...like cancer....every day...

    but it isn't miraculous and it is miraculous....our immune systems are amazing, what the human can do when it puts it's mind to it is incredible...and what it can do when it takes its mind (I can't) out of it is incredible...and what it does on its own inside ourcellves is incredible...

    science....we don't understand it all....but it happens...and what was once a miracle when understood and explained by science...is still a miracle!
     

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