A naturalistic spirituality?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by DT Strain, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. DT Strain

    DT Strain Spiritual Naturalist

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    "The distinction is marked by those who 'take on board' what they have learned, then the message becomes simple: Love (as in agape, not eros)." --Thomas

    Agreed :)
     
  2. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    I happen to believe G-d gave me a spirit, a heart, and a mind to exercise. Metaphysics (in the classical sense) is one way one can answer questions for oneself. Kinda like experiencing the D!vine in meditation of prayer. Of course it could always be as useless as the Exegesis of PK Dick or the collected works of RA Wilson.
     
  3. Irishwaterz

    Irishwaterz New Member

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    I do not think that is true for all left hand practioners.

    I consider myself on a left hand path and Naturalistic spirituality is not only completely compatible with my beliefs and practices but they mesh together quite well for me.
     
  4. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Please explain this statement.
     
  5. Irishwaterz

    Irishwaterz New Member

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    Naturalistic Paganism says that

    1. The Universe/Nature is sacred. There is no God, No Supernaturalism. Just Nature which is beautiful and should be honored and revered or respected. I love nature and I view it in the same way.

    2. The Rituals that a Naturalistic Pagan may engage in include celebrations of natural solstices and equinoxes, their birthday, cross quarter days, random ritual days or they may make up their own days and celebrate those but each time they engage in ritual work, its always using applied psychology. For example where a Theistic Pagan may spirit dance in hopes of reaching a trance state and then astral projecting, a naturalistic Pagan spirit dances to sweat, to release tension and stress and to reach a trance state and astral project all while knowing that its psychological, its fun psychodrama.

    3. My altar has flowers on it, candles, incense, oil, sage, all tools i could use but all have completely naturalistic uses. again there is nothing supernatural about Naturalistic Paganism/spirituality.

    4. naturalistic Pagans do not worship anything exterior to themselves, they see nature as sacred and may seek to honor and respect it but they do not worship it. They make seek to immerse themselves deeper into Nature but they do not mean it in a spiritual or theistic sense of merging, they mean going out in nature and connecting on a deeper level in your brain.

    I have studied Satanism for a long time, since I was 17, I am NOT a member of the Church of Satan so I cannot speak for them but its for personal reasons, nothing at all to do with them or their beliefs, I agree 100% with them.

    Satanism other than saying that its a carnal religion and not a spiritual one really doesnt contradict Naturalistic Paganism in any way that i can see, Satanism also believes in lesser and greater magic just as Naturalistic Paganism does only the former may not call it by those terms.

    Satanism is all about the self and is a very self centered religion, this simply means doing that which benefits the self first and worrying about others later or not at all. Naturalistic Pagans could be concerned about others, they may not be, depends on the Pagan. I love going out to a pond with a waterfall and laying there, I benefit from that, I feel that nature has more to offer me than most people and I find most of the human race to be deplorable, stupid and weak, I thrive on that weakness and stupidity in my job (lesser magic) and so that too benefits me in some way. :)

    Naturalistic Paganism has no rules that say it cannot work in conjunction with another path. Satanism only says that its incompatible with Theistic faiths, religions that hold to supernatural constructs and there are none in N Paganism.

    Of course I understand that most Witches and Pagans would want nothing to do with a Satanist and vice versa but its just misconception and misunderstanding because I do not see why they could not work together, they do for me.

    I have Random ritual days where I spend a whole day in Ritual. I read (mostly Satanic literature), I contemplate, I write, I go out in Nature, I light candles (scented-to me that falls in with aestectics) sp. Incense and sage because I enjoy the mood it strikes within me, I may listen to Native american music or celtic music through the day, I Visuzalize things I want happening in my life and as night rolls around I turn on some Rusted Root music and spirit dance, I drink wine from my Baphomet chalice, Then I ring a bell and prepare my ritual dagger, I may do one of several things here, i may chant out the infernal names, I may write a curse or a spell, I might masturbate and drink wine, I dont know, it varies and depends greatly on my needs and moods at the moment.

    I also celebrate my own Birthday as that is the most important time of the year to me, halloween and WalpurgisNacht because this is the night that Anton LaVey founded the church of Satan. Ironically before I discovered Satanism i had already celebrated these 3 holidays as well as my random ritual days.

    I was raised with a belief (raised in a tradition of Witchcraft) that teaches that The Goddess is the Universe/Nature in the first place and she/it is NOT a supernatural agent but the mere face of what exists in the natural Universe so even as a Satanist I still feel that way, Nature is awesome, it rocks, we should treat it better, why should I litter a beach when I have to walk there and lay there and take in that nasty garbage I threw down last night, its just common sense to me.

    Yeah, I could talk all night, religion is my favorite subject and I dont have anyone in my life even my boyfriend who likes to talk about it with me....oh well
     
  6. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Irishwaterz,

    Thank you for your elaboration, allow me to explain why I don't see this Path as a true Left Hand Path.

    I am an ex-member of the Temple of Set and one of the Magi in the Order Luciferi. I consider myself a Luciferian in Principle, and not a Satanist. The difference being that Luciferians are concerned and compassionate about helping mankind to see their full spiritual potential.

    The LHP is not about atoning with the natural/objective universe (which many religions understand as god), it is about separating from this 'time in space' and stepping outside in order to look at the True Self and make adjustments.

    It is about knowing and conversing with your Higher Self / Dæmon and creating a plan together that will eventually lead you to apotheosis / self-deification.

    The LHP is not interested in atoning with god, but rather becoming a god.
    That is not to say that mastering the physical plane is not important, it is. It also does not mean that reverence to all living things is not embraced, for they are.

    The difference can be summed up with:
    Thy Will Be Done (RHP)
    My Will Be Done (LHP)
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I am not against the principles of 'naturalistic spirituality' as such, but it does throw up a number of inconsistencies and questions as you present it.

    OK. Let's take that as given.
    Why? 'Beauty' is a matter of perception, and there are enough not-beautiful things in nature to render nature neutral. I think this is a sentimentalism?

    We qualify things as beautiful, or not ... but nature just produces things that work, or they don't. I don't think beauty is a driving force in nature. Economy, perhaps. Simplicity, perhaps ... but not beauty ... 'nature red in tooth and claw' as the saying goes. There's nothing beautiful about 'survival of the fittest' when the chips are down.

    Same with honour. Honour what? How?

    Respect, I accept. As the saying goes, ignore nature at your peril. Nature can turn the most fun into the most tragic in an instant.

    I agree. It's done to give the person a way of locating themselves in an otherwise cruel and callous world, that's what 'rites of passage' do.

    Fun? Is this not delusion? Too many take such things too serious to be fun. Too many casualties, too.

    But then you've bought into the 'altar' schtick? I mean, an altar is used for offering to a higher power, it's utterly religious.

    Sacred means 'set aside' for the gods. If not anything exterior to self, then why bang on about 'nature'? Are you not contradicting yourself here?

    If you really want to effect the self, I suggest using a mirror — more powerful than drugs, more powerful than your altars — and by that token more dangerous, psychodynamically. Having sen big casualties of that practice, I would not suggest it unless under supervision by someone who knows what's going on, but who-hoo, it does the trick.

    Is that not assuming a 'deeper level'? There's only conscious, semi-conscious or unconscious, without getting into super-naturalism, which you've already ruled out.

    Then you will know the word comes from the Hebrew for 'adversary', and specifically the adversary of anything true, good, beautiful, etc. (in a legalistic sense). And yet there cannot be an 'adversary' nor a 'satan' if you don't acknowledge anything outside the self. There is on'e own dark nature, but that's hardly worth setting up as an exterior dimension.

    I'm sorry, but this argument seems more sentimental, anthropomorphic and superstitious than can be said of most religions, and that's saying something.

    Then what is the Goddess if not a supernatural agent? And if not a supernatural agent, why call it 'Goddess'?'

    It seems to me that most of the terminology of modern paganism/naturalism is too dependent on a false anthropomorphism, on superstition and sentimentality, whereas the religions tend to strip this out in their philosophies and theologies, even if they persist at certain levels of humanity.

    For example, as a Christian, when I read a rigorous metaphysical explanation of reincarnation, say, I can understand and accept the idea in principle — life goes on — but at the popular level, the idea of 'me' reincarnating as someone else for a second bite of the cherry, although I am not 'me' this time round, or coming back as a puma or a mouse according to karma, seems to me to be founded on superstition, sentimentalism and a misunderstanding of the original doctrine.
    You seem to want the best of both worlds?

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  8. Ecumenist

    Ecumenist New Member

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    Thomas, you speak of Beauty, and I agree that it is proverbially in the `{eYe} of the beholder' ... yet here, you forget about your own GOD.

    Some of us haven't, and experience Beauty with realizations foreign, perhaps unimaginable to you. I do not need rose-colored glasses, or a St. Augustine, to appreciate the Beauty of a Rose ... and that stuff about Solomon, in all his Glory and Splendor ~ ah well, I think you were off with the Sanhedrin on that particular day. Or otherwise too busy to CONSIDER. I'll be darned, those Lilies were not one bit less Wonderful for your absence, or your failure to find connection {from atom, through Atom to G*d-Man}. Hmmmm ...

    Perhaps you will come around, and accept after all your mighty cataphracting [sic] that yes, there's quite another point of view on matters *entirely* ~ which you've never, in fact, considered ... as you're too busy dismissing it and plugging up that precarious dike.

    Personally, I think you are afraid. Your entire worldview will come undone if, and once, you accept that there's GOOD in everyone ... with Deity as much a Great Gardener as anything else. {If this is true, what might follow? You see, I do not so much show the chink as turn the cheek witting & willing, for I know you'll find what you're after anyway, eh?}

    Do not speak of shepherds or shepherding if you cannot recognize God's Lambs. Do not speak of the GOOD Shepherd, while yet you stand in stark denial ... of the GOOD in everyOne. For lo! There you sit, in part oblivious, otherwise turning to a crisp in noonday S*N! :eek:

    Nature does not cease with ivory-tower intellectualization ... bowing down to your crème de la crème.
    A pyramid, with Humanity at the APEX? Oh dear, I suppose it's down with God, again!:(

    At least try not to forget to demonize and vilify Theosophy and the exponents and Messengers of the Wisdom of the Lord. Otherwise, one does get bored, and e'en wonder ~ could he be coming 'round? Do avoid that part, eh? Don't want us to think you're finally Found.
    And hey, it's quite okay. A fella named Cephas once got a bad rap for that. :eek:

    Where your vision DIMS, some of us perceive God/dess beginning a New-Old, Eternally-Young Order, Balance and Rhythm ... again, and yet AGAIN. S/He manages to do so on a higher turn of the Spiral (which you semi-sense, and still deny), and She is ever aided WHEN ~ and as, She is needed (or needs, such aid).

    If you wish to understand how and why "Nature Unaided Fails," you must first learn a greater Respect ... and find the Christ within the atom, within the Adam, within the old Tom & then `get at Him' ... but don't ask me why I understand things which you do not. On any given day, I'd gladly trade both my feathers ... for a useful pot ~ to put things in.

    Interesting how some cups hold water {like our imagined theologies} ... and others? Ah *Well*, unlike a deep hole in the ground, they do not. Still, I know a Pierian Spring, and I'll drink deeply ... n'est pas, old Bean?

    Quite.

    ~*~

    So that is why I don't understand why anyone would witting or willing choose the LHP, or `Left Hand Path' as referenced. Perhaps we have re-invented and re-defined a simple designation, quite well-known and often referenced, both during and prior to Christ Jesus' time. {?}

    I mean, if you toss away the consummation which is signaled by each Great Initiation (and some particularly, once chrestos is CHRISTOS) ... I suppose pretty soon it's back to our old `cafeteria religion,' though I think this bloke here in his Sunday best STILL doesn't get it, each time he's served, insisting on the same old rice pudding. Oh he is a dear, dear Guest, yet I have always wished he'd come for a visit, rather than just to stay. Mmm, no wait, reverse that.

    An irony, as he complains about all the other items on the menu, failing to see the joke, since this poor bloke can only eat that same old rice pudding ... and only complain about the other Guests, who've quite long ago realized what a wonderful diversity of food we have here, though all being cooked with Loving hands and representing, 'tis certain, our fav'rite recipes from every Land.

    Oh I almost weep for him, yet I see & know myself in my Brother, and I can quite see ~ the cosmic Lover, moves just as Adept-Lee (to meet *his needs*), though under cover. You will need to look up Sri Aurobindo here, or you will quite miss the Ms.

    Oh Rapunzel, Rapunzel, will you LIFT UP your ... {Isis had one, even if you otherwise miss the ball, and drop the point, when it comes to what MERRY MEET means up in Christ's joint} ...

    Veil, sanity, tooth and nail; now where're your claws, and where's that ...

    Verily, verily, you're a Scorpio too, and when you least expect, a deadly stinger will im-pale __.

    Brothers, I will talk the Turkey as long as we don't forget about those curious Annunaki-shaped EAGLES {oh Ezekiel, where art Thou?} ~ as equally the Firesign, who said, "These demons are NOT - for sale."

    I suppose on that happy note, I must close with an aptly chosen quote, designed to enlighten if it does not quite get your Capricornian GOAT:
    "Two postmen times three gas meter readers equals how many integrated community workers? Decode your answer now...
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Did you remember to carry the bum?"​

    Well GOOD, then, you bunch o' savvy Samaritans ... :)
     
  9. Ecumenist

    Ecumenist New Member

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    "self-deification" and My Will Be Done over the Divine Will?

    For once I'd agree with Thomas, were he to point out the danger in this. If only he didn't have such hard time understanding that the Christ Nature also resides in me and you ... and of course, within him TOO.

    So I can quite see how the Pauline dying daily to little self, that the other Self may INCREASE (now who was that telling us how "he must decrease?"), would eventually lead us to the only kind of Deification which can proper(ly) occur:

    To wit, the Soul within the form, itself the vehicle for LIFE (or Spirit), must come to dominate and control the rebellious persona. For whichever MASK we feel will make us big and bad, or bold and strong, each is equally at best a NOTE within the Cosmic SONG. And so I've heard, those notes must flow TOGETHER, with meter and cadence and pitch and rhythm ... not forgetting, a CHORD or two, ere the Grand Symphony may first be witnessed, or made to play.

    Amazing how a Master musician continues to practice, practice, PRACTICE.

    I wonder what all that PRACTICING is for. I mean, surely s/he would be far better off just to IMAGINE a piece of music ... or to dream of what MIGHT be.

    What's all this nonsense about PRACTICE?

    Yes, I most certainly maintain some of the LHP sort of ways. But I make it MY task to harness my six-gray horses ... lest they all set off to graze, or disperse to take their well-earned drink, by the Waters ~ which naturally enough, will beat my sink. After all, my love's in the gutter, so ... don't ask! :eek:

    T. may not realize, but I semi-wear the astral rupa (and thus the manomayakosha, too) of another bloke entirely ~ kind of stuck to me, like glue. For in that `body' ... were it still, independently animated, [like you, still phys'cally ALIVE] I'm a different sort of bhakti altogether, a bit more hip than []. As naturally as Egoically and quasi-Heroically, I am incarnate now, yet some of me is "still there."

    *[some of this fluff, or jive]*

    Would that this Joe should remember a different holy one morning, and find some answers in a dream; yet here I must tread lightly ... as one tiny HAIR set out of place, is enough to make most (of us) *scream*.

    Hmm, the wit runs dry; and in Truth, True Wisdom does not need TRY ~ so much as Flow, and Go.

    Perhaps I'll practice breathing ... as every novitiate is wont to DUE.
    I hope we each & all Realize our proper Dharma, this being unique to ___.

    ~ people living in Katmandu? Perhaps so, with apologies to a certain Nepalese Elder. Yeah, you know who.

    {and this is what happens when some of us forget to sleep ... or one of us, anyway}
     
  10. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    I don't believe in Christ, or an Abrahamic god.

    That is certainly not Self-Deification.

    One man's consonance is another man's dissonance

    Master musician/sufi Hazrat Inyat Khan became so perfect that he never played anymore, he just taught.
    In any case, there comes a point in an accomplished professional musician's life where he doesn't practice any more . . . he just plays.[/QUOTE]
     
  11. Ecumenist

    Ecumenist New Member

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    If it's the Song of the Lord he's a-playin' {as say, one certain Greek Lyricist of note, or e'en a Goatherd} then I quite recognize and acknowledge the `Right/Rite to Teach.'

    Curious, though, how e'en though I AM NEITHER (of those two Divine Musicians), still on this stump here, I sit ... forgetting myself, and choosing to Preach.

    Let me suggest, that most of those who are enlightened, tend to be somewhat quiet about it. In that, I cannot deny that I interrupt a certain current ... and of course, one might wonder WHY?

    I suppose, in short, I might just say, "Because I don't believe in the christ of Churchianity, either, much less the old invisible man in the sky {who favored, thus favors, us folks over YOU lot}."

    No, there is no place for Separatism, ego and turf wars in the affairs of the heart of one who loves the Lord. So whether you're a devotee, a jnana, a karma yogin or a NIRvanee, I would at least hope there's a basic, unswerving agreement that 99 times out of 100, WE are our own worst enemy ... and the only demons, or devil we face?

    AH, well, THAT resides in both you, and me.

    I just prefer to DWELL ON ~ The Antidote.

    My, how Aesculapian!
     
  12. Irishwaterz

    Irishwaterz New Member

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    Naturalistic Paganism is not about becoming one with anything. We are already one with nature for we are natural. RHP THY will be done indicates that there is a THY whose will can be done and there is no THY in N Paganism so again there is no contradiction to Atheistic Paganism and Atheistic Satanism which is what I am speaking of for myself when I am speaking of LHP paths.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this.

    I have reservations about this. Ancient man thought we were the playthings of the gods — whether the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the antics of the occupants of Olympus, we were helpless really ... his secret rites reflected this.

    The origin of the word 'person' traces its roots back through the Latin to the Greek. The term persona means "related to" and personare "to sound through". Many trace it back to the cult of Persephone, and the Etruscan phersu or mask worn by the actors of the cult.

    +++

    I would ask that you consider this:

    The material world is not in itself a dream, it's real in its own domain. The spiritual world is a dream to the material world, the material world is a dream to the spiritual world, but each world is 'real' to itself ... but I will allow that the spiritual world is 'higher' or 'prior' to the material world.

    Too often this notion then underpins the idea that we must 'escape' the material to live in the 'spiritual'. This solution, which is also that of Buddhism and neo-Platonism, falters since anything finite must eventually be reduced to non-being, an illusion, the very act of being becomes meaningless, and the One is attained only through mystical experience — 'the flight of the alone to the Alone', as Plotinus would have it.

    The rending of the veil of the temple (Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45) speaks of quite the reverse. The idea of Christianity is not the flight from the evil material cosmos to some aetherial otherworld (as the Platonists, the gnostics, the pseudo-esoterists and the dualists would have it), the idea is to sacralise the world, to make it what in essence it is, and what it always should have been, a theophany and, in the eyes of God, something 'good' (cf Genesis 1).

    Not even angels can do this. Only man can do this. In this man is higher than the angels (cf 1 Corinthians 6:3). This is why man, work of the sixth day, sums up all that has gone before, and in that in the eyes of God he is not just good, but 'very good' (Genesis 1:31).

    Man is the place where spirit and matter meet — his vocation is to materialise the spiritual, to spiritualise the material.

    That is why "the Word was made flesh" (John 1:14), which is not a myth, nor a metaphor, but an actuality. This is what people cannot get their heads around, it actually happened. As soon as you start to rationalise this fact away, Christianity is reduced to a shabby tragedy, and an empty philosophy.

    Without the Incarnation, there is no encounter between man and God.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Religion is like a penis...

    You can be proud of it

    But yours ain't the only one...

    Don't wave it around in public...

    And don't try to shove it down our children's throats.
     
  15. Ecumenist

    Ecumenist New Member

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    Here, Thomas evidences again that he fails utterly to understand ANY form of esotericism which is not HIS OWN, after Guenon or that of the Jesuits, many of whom are first-class Black Magicians, persecuting Truth and Her Exponents and thereby holding up progress within organized western religion almost indefinitely.

    None of the esotericists I know or have ever worked with, and likely very FEW in the Theosophical or related schools, has the LEAST angle on the material worlds as an evil to be escaped ... with the etheric [Aetherial] Inner planes as those where we really ought to be experiencing things, etc. etc.

    One only hopes that the severe distortions which appear ANY time Thomas begins to rattle on about esotericism ... do not affect those who otherwise might be inclined in that direction. For example, radarmark is far more of a Theosophical, Neo-Platonic, esoterically-oriented individual AT PRESENT, notwithstanding other affinities and exoteric profession of Faith [Quakers, as of a rule, exemplify Christ's Message and Mission in ways which entire congretations of Roman Catholics utterly fail to manage] ... than Thomas here will EVER be.

    The one understands metaphysics, cosmology, ethics, aesthetics and even logic in ways which the other utterly fails to even approximate. The one is already far better anchored in these Aetherial worlds than the other, yet continues to benefit thereby in such a way that I estimate he is much more dedicated to improving his environment and all such persons/beings as he encounters therein ... than the other can even imagine. If there is any here who is determined to escape logic, reason, balance and order, and demonstrate that theology provides an infinitely expansive realm for head-bonking [replace with a word that works for you] ... then it is certainly our resident theologian, and not best exemplar of the Society of Friends.

    The one only knows how to load his little popgun and shoot it at those who have a true, sound footing on the Farther Shore, obviously jealous at what they have discovered, meanwhile making up for it as best he can with continued insults and constant assault on ALL THINGS SACRED AND HOLY.

    The other ... who certainly has views, appreciations, reservations and various assumptions/a prioris which are definitely his own ... nonetheless manages to voice the Spirit of Universalism, Ecumenism and Cooperation ~ as soundly and consistently as any Baha'i, any Theosophist or any Humanist that I have met or known.

    Both have a Dharmic attraction to this forum and to participating in what I cannot believe is `merely an escape from the REAL world of problems and solutions, and simply a spinning out of fanciful ideas or pipe dreams, instead.' But one is aware already of the interaction and interchange between the physical, astral and mental worlds ... and the Spiritual realms [of Higher Manas, Buddhi and Atma/Nirvana] ... while the other, does not understand metaphysics well enough to even appreciate what was just typed.

    The fact is, yes, the entire Physical Cosmic plane, with all of its Septenary SYSTEMIC sub-planes [physical, astral & mental planes, Buddhic, Atmic/Nirvanic & the two Highest planes of the System] ... may be thought of as Krishna's [VISHNU's] Dream. This is beautifully depicted and SYMBOLized in the inserted artwork from Vaishnava [Hare Krishna] publications. Only the resident theologian, who rattles on and on about matters he does not understand, will fail to recognize that the anthropomorphic nature of the artwork here must be transcended, in order to appreciate the RELATIONSHIP between God and the Universe [or Cosmos, on a larger scale].

    [​IMG]

    Sadly, some are just blinded by the man in invisible robes notion, which they reproduce - quite thoroughly - once a week, in their grand cathedrals, with golden candlesticks, and all the little boys they can manage to pack in the proverbial rectumries. And with all the talk of HEAVEN which I have heard spewed from the pulpit, to keep the little old ladies just riddled with fear, it's no wonder the $£$£ keeps pouring into the collection plates, HAND OVER FIST, so that the vicars can continue to enjoy their oh-so-Christian lifestyles.

    Yes, I quite think that those with eyes open CAN SEE who is focused on and worried about the hereafter, and therefore is dedicated to a life anchored in ANOTHER WORLD entirely ... as opposed to those who ALREADY KNOW that we currently, ALREADY EXIST in those Aetherial worlds {try studying Paul} and are thereby dedicated to helping to alleviate the unnecessary suffering from THIS ONE, plus striving at one's UTMOST to:

    "love the Lord y/our God with all y/our heart, with all y/our soul, and with all y/our mind," and
    "love y/our neighbor as y/ourself."


    No, Thomas, some of us are not at all confused by the smokescreen (or pretty purple-white robes and gold candlesticks, and buggery going on) ... and some of us know QUITE WELL that as we row, row, row our boat, life IS "but a dream." I hope someday you'll join us ... and the world will be as ONE. :eek:
     
  16. Ecumenist

    Ecumenist New Member

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    Lol, wil ... you're SPOT on! :)

    WORD!
     
  17. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Ho, ho, ho.
    Very true, Ecumenist. There are two realities. The 'absolute' and the 'pragmatic'. We exist in the 'pragmatic' reality, but beyond that there is an 'absolute' reality, where PERHAPS there is no duality. Both are realities at their own level. The spiritual journey is to transcend the divide.
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    In Christianity there is only one reality, the Divine.

    All other created natures: angelic, human, fauna, flora, mineral, subsist accordingly.

    To us there is not 'this' reality and 'that', but a theophany.

    The 'absolute' and the 'pragmatic'.[/quote]
    You can't really have the 'absolute and' (although you qualify the absolute in quotes, you really need to explain you're talking of a 'relative absolute').

    Again, to be 'absolute' would mean there can be no duality, else the absolute would, in fact, be relative.

    As for 'pragmatic reality', I would say that this is a construct of the intellect, and as no two (human) intellects are the same, you have not duality, but multiplicity, which are not even relative according to an 'absolute', but relative according to other relatives ... ?

    Quite. That's precisely what I said. But it then needs to be understood that all realities subsist according to the One, according to the Real.
    As Our Lord said to St Catherine: "I am He Who Is, you are she who is not."

    Again, that's just what I said ... at which point one realises the division is illusory.

    As long as man continues to think in dualistic terms, he'll never overcome the illusion.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    How very clever ...
     
  20. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Religion is like a penis... You can be proud of it, But yours ain't the only one... Don't wave it around in public... And don't try to shove it down our children's throats.

    Can I rewrite it to the tune of "Imagine"?
     

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