A naturalistic spirituality?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by DT Strain, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    What you actually mean is, I don't see your idea of God.

    You see, your inability to respond without abuse says a lot.

    Personally, I think you're inability to respond with anything other than jeers and insults just shows you've got lots of abuse, but no substance.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Here we go, no substance, the usual infantile conspiracy theories, and the usual tirade of abuse ...

    Really?Have you never come across the 2nd century theosophies grouped under the banner of 'gnosticism'? I'm surprised, you've endorsed them often enough.

    That's because I don't buy into your materialistc notions of esoterism.

    Abuse. who are you trying to impress, exactly?

    Ah. Look out Radarmark, you're being courted, old chum.

    ... abuse ...

    That's you, Mr R.

     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi skinker —
    Well I would say that the data of Divine Revelation outstrips the writings of even Philip K Dick. This is actually a pre-Christian notion — we're back to the idea of man as the plaything of the gods, and the Cult of Persephone.

    When Scripture talks about creation 'in our image', it is generally understood that this is talking about man knowing himself as God knows Himself ... when you contemplate this, you realise the notion of 'person' is the greatest gift that God can bestow upon His creature.

    I'm afraid I think that's cart-before-the-horse logic. It assumes God is just the exemplar of what man can be.

    It's also not given that man will necessarily evolve into the best of all possible worlds, as it were ... that's a notion of scientific progress that's become rather out-moded, I think.

    Not really. God is not a thing like other things are ... God is not DNA.

    Nope, there can't be a paradox in God.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    These might prove enlightening with regard to the Christian perspective:
    Gospel of Thomas, Logion 11:
    Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

    Logion 22:
    Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to His disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the Kingdom."
    They said to Him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the Kingdom?"
    Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter [the
    Kingdom]."

    Logion 48:
    Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in this one house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move Away,' and it will move away."

    Logion 106:
    Jesus said, "When you make the two one, you will become the sons of man, and when you say, 'Mountain, move away,' it will move away."

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Should I ask for a proof of this divine reality? Bible? Oh, no. Faith. Is that right?
    Mountain moved away! Which one?
    All these are not real? There are angels? Michael, Gabriel? And the children of God's angels and daughters of humans, the Nephelims.
     
  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    I am not talking of any 'relative absolute'. I will go with science. There is nothing in this world which is not 'physical energy'. Energy is expressed as mass also. The universe and all things contained in it are constituted by 'physical energy'. Then there is, as you said, the multiplicity. That is what we perceive, and sometimes forget that it is none other than 'physical energy'. So my two realities, I meant these two. The 'absolute' having 'physical energy' and the 'pragmatic' or 'perceived' which is only a form of the absolute. This is what makes us to run away from a charging bull. At the level of 'absolute' reality, there is no bull, no person, and no running away. I am sure you understand my point though my presentation may not have been very smooth.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Thomas is the GoT accepted now?
     
  8. luecy7

    luecy7 Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes: Government, Criminals, and Moderators.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Well you can try, but as the Divine is beyond all empirical determination, you'd be wasting your time.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Which science? Physics or Philosophy?

    Ah, physics then. Once again, you're in the wrong place: Religion/Faith/Theology :: Belief and Spirituality — discussions here 'transcend' the material and the arguments of scientism.

    We're not talking about materialism at all. Or at least, I'm not.

    I understand. We were talking about the spiritual - different order of thing altogether.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Divine and all that is related to it, heaven, hell, judgment, salvation, final raising; all these are beyond all empirical determination. But even then you would like me to put my faith in these. Thanks for the try but it does not sell.
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Hi Wil —
    How can it be?

    Think of all the dispute over the canonical gospels ... and the Gospel of Thomas stands on far thinner ice, it has less to support it than they, so no, it can't be.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Physics is science. Philosophy is speculation.
    What is material and what is not? Are energy and material two different entities? Why should one have this faith and not the other. We want to judge it from all angles, with all the knowledge with us. Why would that be wrong?
    What is a spirit?
     
  14. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Many of us consider philosophy a science, even though it isn't empirical. It's just a definition of a word so noting to start a argument over, I think.
     
  15. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Yep.... in the academy of western tradition, logic, math and philosophy are "well structured disciplines using non-material means of argumentation, evidence, and proof".

    One must accept the independent reality of the mental (qualia or consciousness) to accept this definition (mine) and I believe Aupmanyev believes in material monism (everything there is is matter or energy in a strong physical sense).
     
  16. luecy7

    luecy7 Well-Known Member

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    Oh my, Thomas. You have had no interaction with the Divine? None at all?

    Is that just the clear cut Catholic answer for a person who calls themselves an atheist?
     
  17. luecy7

    luecy7 Well-Known Member

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    Which perhaps could be consistent if you don't go around telling people that their philosophy is NOT the scientific method, demanding some empirical evidence from them, as if when you are ever convinced, then it is a proof.
     
  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Gives me a smile.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Don't knock it! :D Physics is the child of philosophy. Physics starts from speculation ... and philosophy is a science. They both operate according to their axioms.

    No, they're both matter, in the wider sense of the term, or matter is energy, viewed under certain conditions ...

    Why cannot one have both? I do.

    It's not. I was under the impression you were limiting the field to the purely empirical.

    What is matter :p ...

    Sorry, I'm not being rude ... it's just there's a long way to go before we can approach that question.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  20. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Hmmm, it is not "generally understood" that "in our image" is a person knowing him or her self the way G-d knows himself. Not one hit in scholar. Scriptures have very little to do with spirit, it is a matter of that which is beyond. True spiritualism is immune to territorial disputes. CTC is only as old as you have imagined it. Again, no references anywhere except in you mind.

    No evidence of anything that you claim... except as products of your mind.
     

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