A Cake For a Special Couple?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Amica2, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. Amica2

    Amica2 Member

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    Hi everyone!

    In the age of the rising religious right and fanaticism, I have a question for all of you: if you were in the business of making cakes, and a gay couple comes by and want to buy a wedding cake from you, would you gladly serve these two customers? Why or why not? Believe it or not, this is one of the topics in the U.S. right now, with conservatives feeling that they do not have to sell their products to gay people.

    Personally, I am not the best Muslim out there but I keep trying in hope that all the good deeds (including prayers) that I have been doing will pay off on the Big Day. I try to read as much as I can too. Nothing I found in the Noble Qur'an, or even the Holy Bible, would prevent me as a Muslim to have a gay couple buy a cake from me. Hear me out:

    1. Example of Messenger Muhammad pbuh: when Muhammad pbuh received the Call to Prophet-hood from Allah SWT, the Message was to call people to faith in peace and to peacefully coexist with others. Muhammad pbuh did not start attacking people physically for who they are, he did not refuse to do business with them. Nor did his first followers. He did criticize them, and that caused an issue. But for a whole decade it was the Muslims who experienced discrimination, torture, oppression simply for their beliefs. One may say: "well, he and first Muslims were not int he position to stand up or start anything." True, but even when they did receive a green light to defend themselves, they were not a big community. Also, when Muslims returned to Mecca in thousands at the conclusion of Muslim-pagan war, there were still non-Muslims who were allowed to live and remain in the city per Prophet Muhammad's pbuh orders. Which tells me that he still wanted to coexist with others, even if they were his staunch enemies.
    2. Example of Jesus pbuh: Jesus pbuh believe din Kingdom of Heaven, he preached Truth, criticized falsehoods, yet did not attack or order attack against people who are different. His people may have still done business with polytheistic Romans. No where does Jesus pbuh say stop doing business with those who you do not agree with.
    3. Example of Joseph pbuh: was betrayed by his brothers and sold into slavery, yet rose to be one of the most important figures in Egypt, right next to the pharaoh. And we know who pharaohs were and what they believed, including majority of the Egyptian people. Yet, there was Joseph pbuh, leading and doing business for the whole polytheistic nation of Egypt. He did not refuse his service to the country simply because his subjects were polytheists. I am sure there were gay people there too.
    4. Today examples: majority monotheistic nations do business with non-monotheistic countries all the time. So, Saudi Arabia may do business with Communist China. Israel may do business with Japan, etc. No one is refusing services and exchange of goods to people who are different. NO one goes out there and says: "Hey, your nation has too many gays and if a gay person is going to be using my oil or the computers we produce, we are not selling them to you." LOL that would be ridiculous!

    So, why do some people get stuck to the idea that they must discriminate and then claim their religion is preventing them to sell cakes to gay people? It makes no sense to me at all. Business is business. Someone believes I make good cakes, wants to help my business prosper by buying from me: hey, then it is a win-win situation! I would have an issue with someone wanting a cake with Hitler picture on it to celebrate the tragedy of Holocaust. Why? Because that celebrates murder of thousands of people, and murder I do not condone. A gay couple would celebrate their love. And while homosexuality is against my religion, at least no one is being hurt by the gay love: they chose such life and who am I to judge them? They are not there to attack me, they are not there to hate me, they are not buying for me to promote hate of any kind.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    It is called hypocrisy. Which has always been rampant in religious expression.

    The use of religion to attempt to placate ones own bigotry has always (in my lifetime) been a thing. Keeping women from jobs and public office, anti mixed marriages, anti civil rights....religious texts were quoted as reasons to be bigoted in all cases.

    Just as it is today amongst homosexuals....which Jesus was silent on (don't know about Mohammed). And the OT has the same punishment for infidelity and wearing two fabrics in one cloth...as sleeping same sex.... I don't see any bakers refusing to make a cake for trump or anyone else on their third marriage.
     
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  3. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Here's my scenario:

    I'd take the gay couple aside and whisper into their ears.

    Dear Folks, may I inform you of my opinion? Normally I have no reason to invade anyone's sanctity, but here I must inform you that I feel you are an abomination, your so-called "sanctity of marriage" is an abomination, your re-defining of "Blessing" is an abomination. That is my opinion. I am sorry if my opinion is contrary to your passage in life. [then I'd fall to my knees] Please you must understand that you are loathesome and degenerate and grotesque and ... you know . . . abomination and ...

    And as they leave, say with a crying plea help me! It's you NOT me! Help me! You make making me physically sick! Please call an ambulance before you leave ... Oh My God, I am going to vomit! Pass me that trash can! Wait! Pass me that trash can!

    I charge triple for abomination preparation. But for you, I give special price: one and half regular price. Thank you for bringing to mind that I should post a sign saying EXTRA CHARGE FOR IMMORAL ACTS CAKES. [and as they leave] I offer to hold the door for them.

    I'd love to see a court room scene where the plaintiffs argue that the baker kept calling them an "abomination" against the baker's sensibilities.
     
  4. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    The Bible is pretty clear where homosexuality is concerned. So engaging in or encouraging others to do so is to be avoided. Question is, does selling a cake amount to encouragement? I don't know, maybe. I just think a lot of folks put too fine a point on it. I mean, it's not like if you don't sell them a cake, they're going stop being homosexual, or a straight couple witnessing the transaction is going to call off their wedding and give same sex a try. As your fearless leader says, "It's just business." So be kind to your neighbor. Sell 'em a damn cake!
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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  5. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    So a guy goes into a Jewish bakers and asks for a cake to celebrate Himmler's birthday?

    Or a couple come in for a wedding cake to celebrate the marriage of their 11 year old daughter to their 53 year old neighbour?
     
  6. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    wow, those are some daring comparisons!
    I have some counter arguments but Im guessing that isn't the point. Its hard to argue with people with such strong feelings about homosexuality. It can't even relate to their views which makes it harder do find common ground.
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I know, but really it's the principle at play.

    In contemporary atheist 'pluralist' society, the liberal view is 'anything goes' so long as, of course, the 'anything' in question does not offend by western liberal sensibilities. Religion then becomes an easy target because there are moral values that differ from the atheist norms.

    I would like to devise a measure of the religious strength of feeling about homosexuality, compared to the atheists strength of feeling about the religious strength of feeling about the matter! :D

    We had a couple of such cases in the UK, I think ... one was a couple running a bed-and-breakfast and another was a bakers. In both cases, the complainants sought out places they knew would object to their lifestyle to, presumably, 'make an example' ... which smacks just a little of hypocrisy on the other foot, as it were: 'I am free to pursue whatever lifestyles choices I like, but your are not' kinda thing.

    I remember a local childminder bragging to her friends that she fed a Jewish child in her care a bacon sandwich. She thought the whole thing funny, apparently. She didn't mention it to the kid's parents, though.

    The much bigger issue is how this plays into the atheist agenda of marginalising religion, and it's desire to remove it from the public domain altogether. In short, everybody is free to express their own religious feelings as long as they do it 'in the closet' as it were...
     
  8. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    Bday-Satan.jpg
     
  9. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    This comes up at times, but I don't feel it is so, not from my liberal perspective. There is nothing in the ideology I belong to that would object to homosexuality, but there is plenty in the ideology that I subscribe to that objects to marginalising of a group such as homosexuals. I don't have a position as to how the religious and the homosexual communities should relate to each other, except live and let live, but I'm not sure my opinion is relevant in the first place.

    There certainly is such an agenda, but I think it is often confused with the agenda to spread the ideology that people think will improve society. This goes for liberals, conservatives, religious and non-religious, I think. I'm not interested in marginalising Catholics, but on some issues my position will be opposed a Catholics position by the simple nature of ideology.

    I remember asking you along time ago how you would like religion and society to interact since you are so critical of secularisation, but you where a bit evasive. Care to throw some thoughts on it?
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing in my ideology either that objects to homosexuality. On my degree course, I had two heavyweight theologians, one a moral theologian, who dismissed the issue as irrelevance. We were all appalled when the curia moved to 'filter out' homosexuals from the seminaries, a move driven by atheist hysteria. What matters is abuse of power, and that goes for hetero as well as homo.

    Well Pope Francis has been pointing out that the Christian religion was born in the margins, Christ's concern was always the marginalised ...

    That's my point.

    It's a matter of what offends. Liberals, just like conservatives, are very vociferous about their own sensibilities, but they'll walk roughshod over the sensibilities of others — if it doesn't matter to them, then why should it matter to anybody? It's not done on purpose, it's just ignorance. What my partner calls 'casual (X)ism' (insert race, sex, etc. as applicable).
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I love the nuclear option....instead of.discussing reality let us make up something outrageous...

    Of course there are folks that test the eaters and.live to poke the bear.
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes that's necessary to stop people in their assumptions. :D
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Another example of the nuclear option ...
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Just to qualify the above —

    One can always find hypocrisy in any form of human expression, but one should not let one's opinions be defined by negative stereotypes.
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Actually
    , I can find plenty of clips and articles of preachers, congregations, politicians proving my point (much to my dismay) ...

    Those examples you gave? Did they actually happen (as my example does and has thousands if not millions of times)?
     
  16. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    Never assumed so.
    Absoluty.
    Well I was looking forward to arguing a bit with you, Thomas, I never get the opportunity. But I have to fold. I got nothing.
     
  17. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I almost commented on this as well, wil, the nuclear aspect of it is that you are essentially equating religious expression with hypocrisy. No one is denying hypocrisy in religious expression, but is it more rampant there than other ideologies? In you history here it will appear as if that is your case, but it's not really anything provable and it's also hard to move beyond that statement once it has been..dropped.
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I'm critical of any form of dictatorship, left, right or centre. I'm critical of those who constantly advertise the flaws, as they see it, of the other guy, without ever acknowledging their own.

    The Golden Rule is surely the mean to follow?

    Having said that, religion has the right to express an opinion, and really has every right to do so. What is more useful is a debate, rather than barracking from either side, but that's asking a lot.

    The arguments about right-to-life, for example, or right-to-death, are profound and complex. The knee-jerk secular reaction that the Church or religions are stuck in the past is naive. The 'problem' is that church commentators are usually well-grounded in philosophy and the field under discussion, and raise issues the man in the street is unaware of or never bothered to think about.

    The other problem is too many people, too many noisy people, practice prejudice rather than philosophy ... it's easier.
     
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  19. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Well I was going to mention the moral dimensions of IVF, of foetal cryogenics, abortion on demand, designer babies, the belief that cascading condoms left and right will solve issues of STDs ... we can get to grips on this or any other ... sorry if I was being reasonable ...
     
  20. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I will also try to be less reasonable next time.
     

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