A comfort with death

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by wil, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Two easily confused terms: Forgiveness and reconciliation. Not the same! Each is worthwhile and difficult in its own right.
     
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  2. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I endorse Wil wholeheartedly on this point.

    Call it what you will — Forgiveness, Detachment — it's all the same thing.

    It's the one true freedom.
     
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  3. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

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    I still can't quite wrap my head around it. I feel pretty good when I wish death upon such people and they actually seem to suffer and die. When they just drop dead its like wow! Feels so great that they are not alive or even being fed or whatever and getting a free stay in jail in this guys example.
     
  4. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

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    How can you just do that though? I don't understand the process. It just doesn't seem like a switch I can even find, let alone flick!
     
  5. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

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    Can you clarify and define each? I feel almost a bit empowered and stronger or more pumped by malice or hatred, it makes me feel like a mighty spirit or image is superimposed on top of me or my body.
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    "I am so mad at him (s)he makes my blood boil, doesn't deserve my forgiveness."

    So you are so angry at some issue that your blood pressure rises? Which basically means you are doing damage to your cells. You can't chose forgiveness, instead you choose damage to yourcellph. This is why we must forgive, when we get angry our glands create negative chemicals that course thru our body... Our cells develop a form if addiction to these chemicals and demand more. Which we comply by putting ourcellves in more situations to get mad at an feed this need for anger. This is how over time we become the "get off my lawn" nasty old.codger or the contemplative lama....choices.

    Forgiving others benefits yourself, not forgiving others harms yourself. You don't have to give them an opportunity to hurt you again, but it is beneficial to forgive.
     
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  7. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Forgiveness: Thomas' "detachment" is part of my understanding. The act of acknowledging the truth of what happened and detaching from continued attempts at getting it acknowledged, ideally recognizing a change of heart in the one seeking forgiveness, but even in the absence of that, as a one-sided end of involvement in an ongoing harmful mutual embrace, it is a very liberating gesture.

    Reconciliation: building a new relationship, building on the mutual recognition of what happened, and on the commitment to a change of heart and behavior on the part of the person who committed the act or acts at the center of all this.

    Examples: Forgiving an abusive parent on their death-bed - no reconciliation possible, but wow did it help me (and maybe them) to get this off my chest. The various "Truth commissions" addressing atrocities of civil wars or unjust regimes.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I won't argue the nuance here, I'll call your definition of reconciliation a win and a part of form of forgiveness.
     
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  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Bad things happen but until I let go I am making someone else responsible for what I am -- for my own condition.

    I could not understand why Truth & Reconciliation victims needed to forgive their torturers.

    Now I understand that, until I forgive, I am giving another person power over my own life, and also denying myself peace of mind and the right to be forgiven.

    Also to forgive myself, because I have hurt people too, not usually on purpose, but often through selfishness, etc?

    So: peaceful acceptance and an open door to move on towards wisdom, or a bitter self-imprisonment of hate and malice?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    The need to hunt down and bring bad people to justice -- as cops do -- is a different motivation.
     
  11. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

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    What about justice though? What about making sure something is tried against tyranny or villainy so that it doesn't keep hurting people in real ways? Doesn't anger motivate action to remedy or change a situation?
     
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  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Sorry. Our posts crossed. See post directly above ...
     
  13. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

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    Haha I think we posted something similar at around the same moment! When my message about justice loaded I saw it showed yours about hunting down menaces to the wellbeing of people.
     
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  14. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Well put, spot on.
     
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  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Yes!
     
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  16. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

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    As far as I've concluded, fear, anger, sadness, everything likely has its benefits in motivating and making decisions which are likely important in the long run, the only times they become a major issue is when they really do harm the person themselves much more than they lead to any solutions, changes, or benefits.

    If something bothers someone, it probably has some reason deep in their minds and inner calculations as to why it was taken wrong, indicates some threat or instability or impending problem or difficulty.

    So my example from my own experience is when I had a partner who seemed to love me very much, and I was very pleased with that, the problem was that I couldn't just turn off being disturbed by their past whenever it came up or I heard about it. I heard about it to empathize but also to know my partner and deal with it, and so basically if you hear about them doing lots of intimate or gross things with others in the past, its extremely disturbing for multiple reasons, and also must play into the calculation that you too will be expendable in the end. So I tolerated, I heard it, but it bothered me, it was disturbing and hurtful no matter what. So there was no way I could just suddenly be O K with someone I care about doing things with other people, even before they knew me, the images simulated or invented in my mind based on their information or instructions would bring up sights and sounds and whatever I would never want to happen.

    So I could say I forgive all the live long day, and call my tolerance and loyalty a clear sign of forgiveness, but it wasn't really fitting in my idea of forgiveness exactly, because the way people seem to use that word is that the thing doesn't bother them anymore or poison their mood.

    So really I think they are using the word differently, or are just plainly lying. No one forgives that their child is raped by someone then tortured, and finally chopped up and each body part desecrated. No one can say, you know what? I feel just dandy about that, because I've let go (and become an apathetic psychopath dead-head myself).

    So forgiveness with the definition of being just fine about terrible stuff has not been discovered by me. I don't forgive the perpetrators, the tolerators, the ones who can do something and don't, non-human or human. I would always be distraught about someone I love being hurt or doing terrible things or betraying me or if I'm posessive, which I feel I aught to be if I care, enjoy their being molested by someone else in some way.

    So there is that. No one has been able to properly walk me through not minding gross or terrible things when they are brought up or directly impacting me or my calculations for my future.

    Similarly, I can't be at peace with death, its the last thing I don't want to do!

    I'm not ok with the story I heard the other day. A couple had a baby, the baby seemed fine, but it turns out the baby started regressing bit by bit. No the baby is grown up a bit and can pretty much not move, seems to want to play but can't do anything except look around sadly.

    So when people praise the Universe or Nature or God in the way of saying its all wonderful, I find it really despicable. I also find it despicable that people don't care really, even I don't care and couldn't possibly care because there isn't anything I can do to help and my real wish for the truly miserable is that their suffering or torture is ended and cut short.

    So I wish death upon the bad, and the suffering innocent, but not myself.

    That means I must not feel innocent, nor suffering to such a degree as to justify a death-wish, and as for being bad, I don't seem to be that either as far as I'm concerned, and I avoid it for peace and survival reasons as well (though I seem to lack the impulses and desires and mental problems that seem to drive people to do the amazingly evil and unethical and heartless things they seem to do to themselves and others regularly).

    To think of cheating for example seems not only extraordinarily difficult, but makes me very sad if I were to ever cause pain to my loved ones or be sullied by being the one who did something unjustified or wrong. Other people don't seem to give a hoot who they hurt, and its terrifying.

    People have hurt me, and its hard to believe that someone capable of hurting someone so blankly, easily, freely, thoughtlessly, could also really care, but I still give them the benefit of the doubt, and wonder how they were capable of being so heartless as to forget or not care what it would do or any of it, it makes no sense, and I remain unable to really "forgive" in the sense of being ok with it, happening before, happening again, or happening ever in any way.

    So I despise evil, even if I tolerate it, and to me, evil is the ethical misconduct stuff but also the general harm that people consider as the sort which is unintentional, such as disease or death.

    The source of evil is One, the same that leads to bunnies hopping and butterflies and whatever people deem "good". None of it, upon closer examination, is really very "good" seeming. A thing we come to feel affection for decays and dies or is under threat of eventually being harmed and leading to our suffering as well.

    So some people concluded a deliberate training in apathy is necessary to be free from the sensitivity to pain, and to go through life numb and dumb and call it "free and equal love for all" or something. They likely have a geneyic advantage though that they are even capable of being so dim hearted as to witness brutality and not grasp towards justice or correction.

    What has puzzled me is how is it even possible? The only answer I've come to is that I was made different, sensitive and not directed towards numbness or really very interested in or capable of being a heartless sort of un-feeling or feeling only "fine" about everything person. They are made capable.

    I also believe that every moment is generated now, its called Occasionalism or something, and so I likewise believe that in an instant I cam be turned un-feeling too.

    The closest I've gotten to not caring is whenever I was severely diseased. Cancer, Salmonella infection, etc. Then I suddenly, literally like a switch, did not seem to feel for things or care, and it felt awesome! I loved not caring at all or very little. I was still decent and ethical but suddenly I was cold and things which would make me feel bad were very low priority.
     
  17. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    We need Batman too
     
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  18. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    If someone I love was hurt by a monster that walked away without remorse, I do believe I might dedicate my life to using all my resources to hunt that person to bring justice. Yes, I could not forgive while that personal d/evil walked free.

    But -- ok, let's put it this way: I like to think I wouldn't spend the rest of my life shouting at the sky and cursing God?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  19. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    That is nature. Evil is death and it is relative. Death of the zebra is life of the lion, etc?

    All religions explain that spirit permeates and surrounds and 'causes' nature. It's Plato's cave. The natural shadows are just a 'shadow' of the spiritual reality.
    Imo

    It's possible to get hooked into wicca and other natural limited belief systems
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Yes, people say they forgive and don't.

    And it may for some be something to strive for. We are all works in progress.

    I am constantly reminded of a Buddhist Priest buddy, we were sitting on the curb after church... I said as you..I can forgive something's, but the inherent evil I can't fathom. He said, "you can either come to grips with things spiritually, or intellectually, but if you can't and you focus on them you will encounter them physically, so I suggest you work this out or let it go"

    I wanted to punch him...

    But I didn't...and I learned to forgive or let things go.
     
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