A comfort with death

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by wil, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,073
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Not that I don't have to repeat the lesson on a regular basis...

    My most recent is our current leader...my new level with him was achieved thru understanding...realizing how circumstances have built the man into what he is. I don't like him, wouldn't vote for him, but he no longer affects my being.
     
  2. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    19
    Sounds like he was almost of some kind of magical mindset? Magical thinking is pretty popular.

    Earlier someone said something about letting people control me? I don't totally get that. I've heard it before. I've not understood that one. Like, if I'm angry, its at some injustice, to motivate me or others to take action, and if I can't reasonably do anything about it, I may pray or wish some magical or miraculous solution occurs (a curse or malicious wish against an obstacle or enemy) and thats the limit of what can be done and so its left at that. The angry feelings are worth something in several ways, and in cases of helpessness, they can make a person at least feel that God may hear their pleas or cries and harm the enemy on their behalf. Thats how it was in the olden days. You would get mad, you would bring a case, almost like a legal case or complaint to God or a God, and justify your claims with reasonings, and show the injustice and the pain and the evidence and beg and explain, and then God or the Power may or may not respond and today people don't really believe in God too much maybe so they think doing that is just talking to a wall or an empty room that can't give them anything really.

    Today I was angry briefly because of the huge hassle created by a post person not simply leaving the parcel by my door so I have to go through this long process to get the thing now because they don't re-deliver in Canada from Canada Post. My anger or frustration is quick and its expression leads to it quickly being expressed and exhausted like aw crap! What an annoying system! Wish it wasn't so! If its a personal attack that I can't seem to do anything about then I might add that I hope they are stopped or wish they would be stopped.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,073
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    I believe the comment that bothered you was regarding relinquishing your power to others. This what we do when we get angry or don't forgive...nobody likes to agree with that...until you do. It is common to reject it, yet once you grock it, it releases you from you.
     
  4. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    19
    My main problem is not understanding how that works and how not to do it and how it benefits to do it or not do it. Its mainly that I have no idea what it means or an example of it that makes sense.

    I'd like to understand it though, because I've heard it said before and it hasn't computed yet, just hadn't processed because I don't understand it in some examples or something. Like different examples and explanations might help so I can understand how it works.

    As far as it appears to me, its just a problem shows up, as they do, agitates so its like a pricking of the skin so it notifies the brain and then you do something about it if you can. Our whole life is intercourse with forces, we can say the person who was rude to me controlled me to get me to report him and get him fired, but it seems unecessarily convoluted to speak or even really think like that. We are constantly reactive, what we ate influences us, every little word we see or hear might push us this way or that way without our fully even registering it. What really is the benefit in saying that some jerk should be ignored and not get what they supposedly "want" which is a reaction that hopefully eliminates the disturbance?

    My technique is to live simply, if a person does wrong they should face consequences or be corrected or the problems they are causing be exposed and explained so something might be done. "You are letting the food you eat control you by letting the cavity form, and you are letting the cavity control you by feeling the pain it causes, and you are letting the doctor control you by asking for help with the cavity, and you are letting the world control you by being influenced by needing food, getting cavities, feeling pain, trying to help or stop the pain". One of you probably has a better grasp of this idea though since its popular enough that I've heard it before "When you get angry you are letting them control your moods" really? So what? If someone is pinching my skin and I go ouch! What the heck are you doing? And the psychopath responds mmm controlling your moods, I will say yeah, and then I'll calculate my next options because the person is a straight up nut job.

    Yes, when someone treats you like fecal matter, it is disturbing and leads the mind to calculate things which are disturbing to the senses, so you might respond to the stimulus.

    Of course, the Buddha was not afraid, nor was Jesus, because when you're a character in a likely fictionalized event, you're a lot less scared probably, and then it won't matter if you move or not.

    Yet, unlike us, both those men supposedly did not cling to life like we do as natural human beings. A person wouldn't dodge an arrow shot at them if they didn't see it coming or didn't care or even wanted it to hit. Jesus didn't care because supposedly he was confident about being able to bypass it all. I don't believe any of that unfortunately, I also think its a destructive sort of dangerous and ultimately false teaching, but that is because I'm consumed by Lord Mara's world of Maya and Deception, The "God of this present Age" has me by the forelocks entirely, which is why I have the sad state of believing all the hype about walls for example.

    I was told they are solid, and have experience bumping into them. I even witnessed my mother smash into a glass door right in front of me. So Mara has got me fooled for sure. The Buddha and Jesus stuff has not penetrated my (not really/illusionary) thick skull though. I don't believe either of these men achieved anything much except being the figures credited in creating successful cults propogating lies against Lord Mara/Devil God/Life and the World as it obviously appears to the dull and minimal sense appearance and interaction.

    The only scary thing that both schools and their sub-schools seem to largely agree on is that Death is not the end, but both groups have historically scared the BudhJesus out of everyone about what may happen after. Potential terrors and tortures of all sorts await for any number of reasons, and this seems to be what all the world agrees with historically. Tartarus, Jahannam/Gehenna, Naraka, and the various other places of punishment in a life that never ends and can't be run away from seem to be the consensus of the pious.

    Of course there is other news from the faithless that their faith rests in no return or further activity, which is depressing but also a relief, and one which they might wish were true so as to not to receive any consequences of their lives and actions.

    So now its a matter of the ant and grasshopper, the squirrel and the animal that isn't like a squirrel, stories about storing up in case of a storm in something that might save you, which according to the people of old, may not be wealth and children and prestige, but something as weird and abstract as "good deeds" that might convince the divine coordinating bureaucracy (<- Thank God for Auto-Correct on Mobile Devices) to spare us an untimely life beyond life and undying undeath.

    I'll try, I guess, maybe not achieve much in that regard because its hard to invest in something you can't see or predict or know or really be certain about, except that good works also seem to have pragmatic benefits luckily and are for the most part beneficial and low risk.

    I hate it though that we can't know or see and that it seems so much like a lie. I'd barely buy into any of it if it wasn't for certain miraculous things that keep happening, besides some reasoning here and there which at the very least makes it possible one way or another that there is some kind of eventual return to reception.

    When I invest, I typically like some heft to what I invest in, some sort of clarity or guarantees or expectations or something.

    I laughed earlier when I used that glass door thing because it was really funny.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,073
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Choices,.action, reaction...

    Anger, blood pressure, create electrical impulse response requests, glands manufacture carcinogenic and organ harmful chemicals, cells absorb chemicals,.adrenaline and other chemicals cause euphoria, cells create receptors specific for these chemicals and basically become addicted to them,.leading to impulses which will request more chemicals cause more anger, forgiveness to satisfy itch.

    You choose the path that satisfies your need to be angry at your perceived evil and is detrimental to your health and longevity...

    Or you don't.

    Do you need to know how a cell phone works to use it?

    Don't let others push your buttons
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  6. Cino

    Cino Big Love

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    168
    It's a psychological thing, an emotional thing, the heart does it, not the mind, it acts in the subconscious, not the conscious, there is non-head-stuff like grace and surrender involved, and we can only really understand it analytically once we've seen it in action, after the fact.

    So one approach is to try it empirically, then to observe the results.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    285
    IMO there are natural laws and there are spiritual laws. Materialists insist that only nature exists. To them, spiritual laws, like those given in the sermon on the mount, seem illogical and ridiculous.

    But in fact the greater wheel of spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, and is not turned by it. Spirit cannot be directly perceived by our natural senses, or by the extensions of them that we have created: telescopes, etc. But we know its effect?

    EDIT: A loose analogy is the force of gravity. It is the strongest force in the natural universe, that holds galaxies together across huge distances of millions of light years. But it is virtually undetectable except by incredibly sensitive 'interferometer' instruments because at micro range it is so weak that a little magnet will pick up a paper clip.

    The magnet is stronger at close range than the gravitational force of the entire planet on the paper clip. But the magnet is only effective for a very short distance. Something like that? Lol.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    285
    see post #66 above
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  9. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    19
    I don't know if anyone pushes my buttons purposefully except occasionally online, but whenever something or someone irritates me, I try to resolve it or avoid it or do whatever to remedy it. I don't know how to just ahead of time not be bothered by something I don't know is going to happen happens and then I feel agitated. I think it might be an additional stress if the anger lasted really long or something and didn't give a sense of relief through acknowledging and expressing it and then furthermore doing something constructive in response to it to make it not happen again or further alleviate it. I think if I was very worried about feeling concern over my going "shoot!" and then saying "oh no the bus driver who just drove past without stopping when they were supposed to is controlling me now". Instead I say dang that son of a gun is bad! Then I might call and report the jerk who was so inconsiderate as to just think they can drive by without stopping at a stop when people are waiting and waving him down? Crazy, creating so much anxiety for people, the anger motivates action be taken. Maybe it gives me a dose of death juice, but is there someone who lives really much longer and never feels irritated? How do they look at 90? I've seen happy people live very long and end up demented and pooping themselves, and they didn't even get to enjoy thinking that someone is a piece of trash when they do something bad to people?

    I need to get healthier though overall. Mainly I'll be less stressed by limiting my interaction with stressful situations more and more, which I already manage pretty well, but disturbing things still happen, and they seem to happen to rich, poor, happy, unhappy, people with kids, without kids, married, unmarried, single, dating, in a relationship, with pets, with pests, without pests, of all blood types, races, religions, creeds. Satan doesn't save Satanists, God doesn't save Godists, Buddhists poop themselves, Hindus rub cow poop on their head sometimes maybe to stimulate hair growth, might work a little, fitness buffs sometimes drop dead, smokers sometimes live very long, there seem to be no guarantees, but maybe an illusion of risk ratios and increases and satistics.

    Like you said, and what you said is true, when those chemicals are released they can definitely hurt the body, and if its happening a lot it can very likely hurt the body a bit more, so its better to be happy. Now the only way I've found to be happy currently, is by indulging in what makes one happy and avoiding what makes one unhappy, but what makes one happy or unhappy requires some sensitivity to know which might be nice and not so nice, in order to avoid it. Then step by step filling life with the good and skipping the bad, and when bad happens, find solutions, if no solutions one can throw out a prayer and simply tolerate what is un-avoidable and focus mostly on other happy things. That is all I've figured out. I've been around for only 30 years, might be around for a few more (expected normally to be 60 to 90 so 30 to 60 more or around that much or a bit more or less since thats the usual death range, but so many die sooner, even just saw the movie Rush and heard of the one guy dying at 40 from a heart attack, the guy who lived longer is currently a millionaire who had his face and ear and lungs mutilated by being a silly race car driver but he won before it once and after it twice.), do not yet know.

    I think the Buddha went too far. The Buddha's enemy Devadatta (God's Gift) thought he didn't go far enough. The Buddha was an extremist radical, and Devadatta was wanting to take it up a notch apparently.

    The Buddha went too far because he supposedly remembered that he had in some way "been there, done that" and was bored with it all.

    A dumby like me thinks this life is semi-precious, even as a hassle and a nuisance, because we might not have another one or another one like this. So that is why the life of a Buddhist or the Buddha seems like a total waste of time, but to the believers it wasn't, because everything else is a waste of time except getting out of this demented pain cycle and never falling into it again.

    So the choice Mara gives is the fear of death, which leads to sex (Mara is strongly associated with the penis and sexuality in Japan), indulgences, attachments, cravings, trying to survive, and "letting yourself be controlled" by things like hunger for example, or the wish for happiness leading to combat for it. The way we've come to think of these days as plain old human or the American Tao.

    So a life without good food, good company, and all the things the Buddha sort of threw away (his young wife and child who he named Fetter before jumping out a window on his horse and fleeing all these tricky deceptions of Mara like guilt or obligations to your offspring, and he sort of came back later but still, sounds like what we might not think of as very noble in other contexts today), seems like a life not lived, and that is the exact sort of life which supposedly expiates the karma and expends it to such a point that there is no more debt or weight and one can finally be born again in some way as a non returner.

    So I talked to this skinny guy living in the jungle out in some country, eating lizards given to him in his begging bowl and living as a Buddhist beggar extremist and totalky by the books. He seemed a bit rude and annoying, maybe even a bit of temper. I eat very well and even in what might be considered Western squalor, am basically eating and enjoying like a king thanks to all the people who weren't Buddhists and fought like maniacs due to their anger and disapproval to improve rights and the luxuries we can live and take for granted.

    Now the question remains, who is really winning? So far we're supposedly tied in the sense that we were both born and are both expected to die at any moment for any possible reason or strike. He expects that he will never have to do this again hopefully, and I may not get to, since I'll maybe have to a worm crushed on a sidewalk a couple zillion times before getting to glory in hot chocolate and comedy movies again or really perfect sex dolls provided by the State in the distant future or something even better.

    After a while, "the author of confusion" seems to start making everything sound like absurd rubbish though.
     
  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    285
    "There is no reason your mind cannot be with God ... Within your heart stand aloof: in the world but not bound by worldly ways. Pray to the Father: 'I want so much to know Thee, and ... to solve the mystery of life. Though my flesh is weak, my spirit is willing. Within my heart day and night I have a consuming desire for thee...

    Then the Beloved of the universe responds: 'Though the world says you are lost, you are still My little one.' So remember, he who is mentally undefeated is the one who finds God in the temple of his heart.

    No matter what your obstacles, this you can do: In the secret sanctuary of your heart you can seek God, and you can love him with all your heart. Whenever there is a little time ... retire to the cave of silence within ... and in the cave of inner silence, you shall find the wellspring ..."

    Yogananda Paramahansa
    The Divine Romance Vol 2
    'To Know God is to Love All'
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  11. Cino

    Cino Big Love

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    168
    "He who dies with the most toys, wins".

    If a begging bowl with a donation of dead lizard in it is "the most toys" to your ascetic friend, then he wins.

    If the western squalor is your understanding of "the most toys", you win.

    So you both win.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,073
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    I wanna work my way down to a backpack, or suitcase...
     
    StevePame and RJM Corbet like this.
  13. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    19
    I just bought these things! I always loved minimalism though!
     
  14. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    19
    I guess that might also translate as "whoever thinks they are winning is the winner"? If I understood the idea being presented correctly. So it would come down to whoever has the strongest narcissism or self approval for whatever they do and feels best about it during their lifetime. Not about results, appearances, outside perceptions of pain and comfort, but just whatever is solipsistically occurring in their minds and triggering their dopamine.

    I sort of like that because its something I can sort of control because I am pretty good at dementing myself. All I have to do is have the mere opinion that I am the victor in whatever circumstance and then nothing else matters!

    I think I probably do already, which is why I feel happy even when I'm sad too or angry, I seem to have an inner smile that just doesn't go away even if I'm overtly agitated by something.

    I always think I have the advantage, the benefit, that I'm better in one way or another than people who might have more ease or luxury but less of something else I may delude myself into thinking I have.

    It makes sense to me, that if you have one short life of some 20 to 50 thousand days, that they should be spent mostly in pleasure, but even the one who suffers every single one of them and remembers nothing on the last day they enjoy might call it a win.

    When there is no result, judge, consequence to receive, everyone dies and goes to the safest nowhere in the embrace of No-More.

    What if they wake up to find that it did matter and there was a judge, a cartoony judge that had been warned against for centuries by the humans across the world, and that it didn't matter that the psychopath laughed and was pleased as he maimed and killed and oppressed the innocent, but it was deemed by the Cartoon party in charge that he shall suffer for it, as it was said by the ancients we thought were bluffing? I guess in that case, a one or a two may go "oops".
     
  15. Cino

    Cino Big Love

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    168
    I was struck by your competitive approach, and this 80'ies bumper sticker slogan bubbled up.

    Another association was Trungpa's "Spiritual materialism".

    But then, looking at the Buddha's life, I think, "If even that spoiled aristo brat can come to terms with the contingencies of human existence, then I can do that, too!" which is no less competitive.

    So whatever floats your raft. Or your mendicant acquaintance's, or anyone's here on I.O, more power to you.
     
  16. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    19
    I think the Atheist mindset has its comfort possibly more than any other when it comes to death ultimately, except for someone entirely convinced that only good can happen, the next best thing would be nothing happening. It has its tragic elements, which only matter to the living and can't matter to the truly dead or non-existent.

    So when true death is eliminated from the equation, it seems nothing matters really, not even a long life, since we can only think and remember or experience things in the current moment, so if we forget or if we can't access anything, nothing mattered or matters, not survival or length of days or anything except maybe the quality of life now.

    I'm pretty nihilistic myself, but I'm still superstitious to some degree and have no really certainty that I will definitely be fine or never given all time and possibility running infinitely return to reception in some way eventually, which would from my perspective be just like the next moment over no matter how much blank non-reception elapses in between. It can not be experienced. So with that messed up reasoning or logic, it becomes a concern, and the next might be an effort to moderate or reduce risks towards the unknowable.

    I doubt I'd do anything differently though even if I felt certain I would never return in any way or have to potentially face my actions or criticism for my lack thereof.

    Empathy is the only reason I might be disturbed by the life of that ascetic monk. When I put myself in his shoes, and try to imagine or simulate his described experience, I feel very unfortunate and deprived. He left this world of ours having known it somewhat, and feels much more free and unstressed probably in his way. I feel bothered by bugs and hard mats and whatever luxuries he is lacking that I'm fond of.

    He does it because he maybe gets a kick out of it and might really believe in Buddhist stuff in a way that makes his actions seem best and justified. I don't believe in such things or remain unconvinced of the ultimate benefits of deprivation, so when I imagine myself in his place it seems like a punishment or torture to endure that all for what I suspect is also going to be nothing or of no great benefit.

    Yet, regardless of his suffering, he may be fond of it or feel happy about it. His happiness may also stem from his being certain or convinced of what he is doing, and certainty regarding myself or my end or my results at all. That may just come down to personality, but luckily I also don't seem to care about it deeply enough to weep or anything, because its hard to even think about things not even in sight or view.
     
  17. Cino

    Cino Big Love

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    168
    I see it the other way around. There are no dead. Only us living ones.

    Us living ones is what it is all about, tragic moments and good ones.

    Let the dead bury the dead.

    Not evangelizing or criticizing other points if view, just explaining mine.
     
    wil likes this.
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,073
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    I always thought those with a belief in heaven would have the most comfort in death and am always surprised when it isn't so.
     
    The Artis Magistra and Cino like this.
  19. Cino

    Cino Big Love

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    168
    There's this much-quoted anecdote about Rabia of Basra, carrying a bucket of water and a torch, and when questioned about this, answering, "I want to quench the fires of hell and burn down paradise, so people can worship out of love for Allah rather than out of fear of punishment or greed for rewards."

    I like that, hope I am retelling it properly.
     
  20. The Artis Magistra

    The Artis Magistra Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    19
    Can you elaborate on this? I almost automatically nodded and liked it but I want to understand this point more. As far as I understand it, since the dead are people who cease to exist, only the existing people matter or are relevant and the dead are only potential lessons at most for the living who think and act and care etc.
     

Share This Page