Calling To Hajj Is Calling To Unity Of Power

MW,

I wanted to add one more idea. It’s fascinating to see how your perception of my view of things is a little off, and my perception of your views is a little off, too. This is an excellent way for us to see how our perceptions of each other are off a little, and correct these mistakes in a non-threatening way.
 
Hi Nick

Oh how frustrating, I did a thoughtful long post about this but for some reason it must have got lost in cyberspace ... sorry, wasn't ignoring the issue.

Please remember I can only speak as a Muslim who has never been to Mecca or Medina and who doesn't feel insulted if someone names a teddy bear Mohamed ... so Muslims in Saudi probably feel rather differently to me. As you rightly say, it is not a particularly emotional issue for me so my reaction will differ from other Muslims on the topic. I also hadn't given this any thought until this thread.

That said .. I have completely scrapped my idea for allowing non-Muslims into Mecca or Medina (as cities, not into the mosques) and allow me to explain why.

1. I have been to Sharm el Sheikh, a tourist destination in the Sinai desert ... to me, from a faith pov, it was hell on earth and I fear if tourists were allowed into Mecca and Medina they would inevitably try to turn an area into a tourist town. What's the problem with that? Alcohol, walking around in bikini's, cursing, leading locals astray and how long before they demand bacon and eggs for breakfast ... yes that sounds dreadfully conservative but Islam is a conservative faith. To the tourists drinking and partying is what a holiday is often about and they won't see why it would be a problem.

Now transfer that vision to the holiest site on earth for Muslims. If the Saudi's allowed tourists to drink and walk around half naked it would simply invite corruption among their own population. Alternatively they can ban alcohol and insist all tourists cover up .... but what happens when they arrest someone for being drunk in charge of a bikini? International outrage in the press because of the loony Saudi's and their 7th century attitudes.

It's a no win situation for the Saudi's and as much as I often think they have lost the plot, on this one I have to admire their tenacity in remaining a closed country.

2. Sheer numbers. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and they all want to visit Medina and Mecca .. not just for hajj. Visa's for Muslims are limited in number, so by opening those areas to non-Muslims would mean the possibility of Muslims being unable to visit (let's be honest if a hotel can get £5 from me or £50 from you let's guess which they will go after).

3. Religious intolerance ... we know that certain groups of Muslims are intolerant to the point of near insanity (as we have seen on this thread) and such actions tend to lead to hatred and/or retribution. I would rather the mosques in Mecca and Medina are protected from all nutters .. including our own.

You said "On this particular issue, it is easy for me to decide. I have no desire to become a Muslim, and I am perfectly willing to let Muslims decide who can and cannot enter a particular mosque. (It does make me less likely for me to enter any Muslim mosque, I must admit.)"

and this is really what I keep coming back to. You have no reason, other than sheer curiosity, to visit Mecca or Medina. If you started to read about Islam and were genuinely interested in finding out more I would be surprised if you refused to enter any mosque in the world simply because Saudi doesn't allow you to enter the sacred mosques.

Granted such exclusions appear to go against the process of preaching Islam but converting is a gradual process in my experience and not something which would have turned me away from the faith.

That is the general gist of my long post but I'm afraid it's rather late and my brain is on downtime :eek:
 
Hi MW,

You said,

"If you started to read about Islam and were genuinely interested in finding out more I would be surprised if you refused to enter any mosque in the world simply because Saudi doesn't allow you to enter the sacred mosques."

--> My lack of interest in entering mosques is not directly connected to what happens in Saudi. The main reason is that I have no affinity for the Muslim religion, and so there is no sense of ‘home’ for me when I think of the insides of a mosque. I also believe I disagree with some important tenets of Islam, which further removes any remaining desire I would have to enter a mosque. (I also think I have never had a reincarnation as a Muslim, which gives me even less of an affinity for Islam, but that is another topic for another day.)

Which brings up an important point. You must admit that Islam has a bad reputation with many people around the world (myself included). How do you feel about starting a new thread, where you deal with some of the ‘misconceptions’ people have, which cause people like me to see Islam in a bad light? Of course, such a thread would attract Muslim haters, but perhaps you can mentally filter out such posts and stick to the issues. What do you think?
 
--> My lack of interest in entering mosques is not directly connected to what happens in Saudi. The main reason is that I have no affinity for the Muslim religion, and so there is no sense of ‘home’ for me when I think of the insides of a mosque. I also believe I disagree with some important tenets of Islam, which further removes any remaining desire I would have to enter a mosque. (I also think I have never had a reincarnation as a Muslim, which gives me even less of an affinity for Islam, but that is another topic for another day.)

Hi Nick

I accept Islam has no attraction for you. My point was really about potential converts and not you personally. The only non-Muslims who may have a desire to visit Mecca, as the religious home of Islam and not as a tourist attraction, would be people called to Islam and I feel if they are already on that journey then the ban would not stop them entering any mosque.

Which brings up an important point. You must admit that Islam has a bad reputation with many people around the world (myself included). How do you feel about starting a new thread, where you deal with some of the ‘misconceptions’ people have, which cause people like me to see Islam in a bad light? Of course, such a thread would attract Muslim haters, but perhaps you can mentally filter out such posts and stick to the issues. What do you think?

I have sat down a few times over the past couple of years to do exactly that but it's always the Muslim haters and even the Muslim extremists and their views which put me off ... nobody likes to be a target for hatred :eek:

Maybe it's time to just take a deep breath and do it for Allah (swt). Thank you for your encouragement.
 
MW,

Ah, I see, you are talking about potential converts, not me personally.

Regarding the Islam haters, here is what you do: Make a list of people who make uncivil posts, and put them on your ignore list (and do not respond to them). That is what I do. It really is the best way. (Although it is impossible to put uncivil people on your ignore list when those people are moderators of this very forum! I pray for the day when I can put uncivil Interfaith.org moderators on my ignore list.)

Do not let the irrational people interfere with rational discussions. Carry on as if they do not exist. Press on!
 
MW,

Ah, I see, you are talking about potential converts, not me personally.

Regarding the Islam haters, here is what you do: Make a list of people who make uncivil posts, and put them on your ignore list (and do not respond to them). That is what I do. It really is the best way. (Although it is impossible to put uncivil people on your ignore list when those people are moderators of this very forum! I pray for the day when I can put uncivil Interfaith.org moderators on my ignore list.)

Do not let the irrational people interfere with rational discussions. Carry on as if they do not exist. Press on!
What moderators Nick? Who is un-civil? More important who is the defensive and angry one? You have to be specific, else we can't fix things...
 
Hi Nick

I did find the ignore button with one guy (can't remember the username now) so I shall keep it handy. Have started writing something on my computer and will post a new thread as soon as I feel it's ready.
 
I've been on a lot of boards, with some nastier people than have ever been on this one, but I hardly ever use "ignore" buttons (and then, only for "trolls" who do not even really believe the things they are saying but are just wanting to provoke attention to themselves). The people with whom I have the strongest disagreements are those I most need to learn to understand, is my feeling. With Muslimwoman I have had civil exchanges where we share information helpfully-- and blowups where we have brought out the worst in each other, but I would always wish to come to understand what it is about my/her position that has angered her/me so, and on reflection I have usually been able to do so.
 
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