WOKE CANCEL CULTURE

[Contrarian Deist]

Without intending to contend the principles, I would rather point to the idea of 'fundamental God/nature given rights' etc., as these are not given.

There are philosophical and religious expressions, such as the Golden Rule, but these are social and societal constructs, they emerge as guidelines and constraints within given societies, they are not laws of physics.

The Decalogue might be said to be 'God-given' in terms of the First and Second Commandments, but the others were common to cultures in the region at the time, and deemed necessary for the good and the cohesion of society as a whole.

And here's the rub: To use a word I usually reject – progress – is necessary to indicate that collectively humanity is greater than the sum of its individual parts, even though, on occasion, individuals might shine out like supernovae among their peers, and indeed continue to shine down through the centuries.

But without getting into trite debate, what about the 'freedom' to take what I want because I want it? To do what I want because I want to?

In terms of laws of physics, within that context there are certain bylaws that govern certain systems- which includes sentient life forms systems and various different species of life forms. Even within other animal species social systems...particularly with other mammals. Even other mammals which dont have as high a level of creative sentience as homosapiens(and even beyond us...more evolved E.T. species) display certain innate rules of honor and of empathy...which seem to be innate w/out higher more creative sentience cognitive abilities as we have. The higher a species of creatures is evolved in cognition and in creative sentience...the more they seem to develop certain codes innately that ensure more and more comprehension of cooperation, empathy, and creative intelligence and ethics or codes of honor...acrossed all the subspecies of a given species, it just happens naturally and globally...as soon ad a individual or subgroup comes into...others disconnected from direct influence seem to start coming into.
This all seems to be hardwired at a genetic level and seems to be a outgrowth of fundamental laws directly connected to the over arching laws of cosmos, and the higher functions seem to grow out of sentient awareness that comes from a underlying conciousness that is the matrix of reality(and more and more quantum physics and conciousness studies and leading theoretical physics hypothesis are starting to bare this out)...I'd reccomend a reas of the works/books of physicist Paul Davies on this- *cosmic jackpot*, *mind of God*, *God and the bew physicsz*, etc. Heck even some hardcore classical materialist inclined nu-atheist thinkers and scientists are admitting conciousness as being more a fundamental law than just a evolved material trait(Sam Harris has some enlightening ideas on this for example).

This is also the reason that the vast majority of homosapiens(and likely highly sentient ET species) are not psychopaths/sociopaths(though some can be socialized or conditioned to become more sociopathic in some ways...if they are not genetically born psychopaths they cant become fully psychopathic) and psychopaths are a extremely small percentage. In other lower species, traits we might call socio or psycho empathic are a little more prominent...but the higher evolved in creative sentience a species is...the less that is and the more creative sympathy and cooperation becomes more and more prominent(I'm not saying humans are fully there yet, obviously we have a small number
Of socios/psychos and a moderate number of naive follower of those who are corrupted to varrying degrees...but not psychopaths themselves)

More and more the evidence and reason/logic are baring out that these sociopolitical first principles that the enlightenment thinkers(and the founding fathers of the U.S. for example codified in the declaration of independence and constitution) are based in these facts...that are inextricably tied to overarching physical laws of nature.
Hence...*of their creator* and *nature and natures god*(in the declaration of independence) and the concept of god/nature given, inherent, inalienable fundamental basic individual rights(from which further extrapolated via philosophy and sciences combined we gain more and more understanding of these laws and intelligently create other laws and codes from this...from which we derive sociopolitical civil liberties).

It's all there...inherent within nature laws, you just have to know where and how to look and how to interpret natures laws and extrapolate from that using logic/reason combined with nature/God given innate senses and empathy.

As to your last comment.
That action...to take .from others....without consent and agreement what one wants when they want it...without regards to consequences and to other beings fundamental naturw/god given rights and nature/reason derived first principles as I outlined above, is a disobedience towards naturez laws therefore, and also counter productive to that individuals ultimate survival because if they do that...they will eventually receive a recompense one way or the other. Cooperation, empathy, consent are the only way individuals and the collectives they are part of....and a species of highly sentient creatures can even exist, replicate, and survive long term. Even lower mammals innately understand these principles...more or less(less than higher mammals, but they do display this awareness nonetheles)...even w/out higher creative sentient cognition.

You can take what you want, from who or what you want.when you want...but eventually that behavior will come back and bite you in the ass....in one way or another...and you'll have to *look over your shoulders* constantly.

 

[Contrarian Deist]

Well, yes. Your garden variety corporatist free market libertarian tends to feel very strongly about "totalitarian" regulation of their enterprises.

Corporations aren't all evil. If they are monopolistic and crony oriented...that's a different story. Monopoly/crony capitalism is NOT *libertarian* or *free market*(its the opposite of both) and in fact it is fascism...but it is also simultaneously communism(fascism is monopoly/crony capitalism....married to the state in some fashion...to control or monopolize the means of production and distribution with govt officialdom it is connected to. That is exactly what communism is as well. They are one in the same, two sides of the exact anti-liberty, authoritarian totalitarian beast).
Both(one in the same) are(is) the antithesis of libertarian principles/values/philosophy.

 

[Cino]

fascism is monopoly/crony capitalism....married to the state in some fashion...to control or monopolize the means of production and distribution with govt officialdom it is connected to. That is exactly what communism is as well. They are one in the same, two sides of the exact anti-liberty, authoritarian totalitarian beast

Sounds more like Stalinism than Communism in general.

You play very fast and loose with your generalizations. That's your thing of course, but it does create an interesting tension with your claims to rationality and reasoning.

 

[Contrarian Deist]

Sounds more like Stalinism than Communism in general.

You play very fast and loose with your generalizations. That's your thing of course, but it does create an interesting tension with your claims to rationality and reasoning.

It's both.
If you read Marx or even the basic definition of communism it is defined as control of the means of production/distribution by the state(more accurately by a *workers council*...which is an oligarchical collectivist hierarchy...the party...presuming and claiming to represent and be in charge over the actual workers)....fascism(monopoly/crony capitalism) is the same thing.

I am aware there are different types of loosely connected philosophies under the Marxist umbrella. I was once a communist supporter for a year or two(even helped the local communist party candidate out in her campaign for office, we were good friends at the time), then I became a libertarian socialist for several years...but after that I became disenchanted with Marxism period and just became a left libertarian for several years. I was a conservative libertarian(conservatarian) for a few years, now and of the last couple years I just identify as libertarian centrist(where I'll probably stay).
I'm not some ignorant putz who hasn't researched and is just speaking out his...you know what.

Funny, you accusing me of *playing very fast and loose* with my generalizations*. I just came from another thread on the nu-atheist movement where you did just that with the label/term/accusation of *racism* by lobbing it as an accusation at Sam Harris...out of nowhere for no apparent reason and without qualifying the accusation..the playing hard and fast with your generalizations and use of that term/label/accusation.
And then to say that what I said in my last posts above *creates* a *tension* with my *claims* to *rationality and reasoning*. How, pray tell, are you not doing just that yourself by accusing people willy nilly of the harsh label/accusation of racism and not backing that accusation/label up!
People in glass houses should not throw stones my friend.

I mean you no offense here. But honestly...what you just accused me of is a curious , serious case of projection.

 

[Thomas]

... Even other mammals which don't have as high a level of creative sentience as homosapiens (and even beyond us...more evolved E.T. species) display certain innate rules of honor and of empathy...

That seems like an anthropomorphism. You'd have to give me examples.

The higher a species of creatures is evolved in cognition and in creative sentience...the more they seem to develop certain codes innately that ensure more and more comprehension of cooperation, empathy, and creative intelligence and ethics or codes of honor...

Again, this is really complex when you introduce complex conceptual constructs ... personally I regard 'symbiosis' as a more reliable view of evolution than the Enlightenment's rather misogynistic 'Nature as Wanton Woman', 'needing to be tamed' and 'red in tooth and claw'. Survival of the fittest, of course, means rich and privileged bearded old white men are best suited to rule the roost.

This all seems to be hardwired at a genetic level and seems to be a outgrowth of fundamental laws directly connected to the over arching laws of cosmos, and the higher functions seem to grow out of sentient awareness that comes from a underlying conciousness that is the matrix of reality(and more and more quantum physics and conciousness studies and leading theoretical physics hypothesis are starting to bare this out)...I'd reccomend a reas of the works/books of physicist Paul Davies on this- *cosmic jackpot*, *mind of God*, *God and the bew physicsz*, etc. Heck even some hardcore classical materialist inclined nu-atheist thinkers and scientists are admitting conciousness as being more a fundamental law than just a evolved material trait(Sam Harris has some enlightening ideas on this for example).

But Okkam's Razor would say that the more likely evolution of such concepts is ground-up pragmatism, rather than top-down consciousness/intuition, for all the reason's you've outlined below.

This is also the reason that the vast majority of homosapiens(and likely highly sentient ET species) are not psychopaths/sociopaths ...

Hmm ... not really.

Have you done the Psychopath Test? There's a lot more of us around than you'd imagine, it's just the word is bandied about too easily. The emergence of the classic psycho killer is rare, among a wide tranche of people who all score the same on the test. Same with OCD and autism — we're all on the spectrum, the dividing line between OK and problematic is a construct ... all this reflects on the idea and interplay of individual v societal good.

It's all there...inherent within nature laws, you just have to know where and how to look and how to interpret natures laws and extrapolate from that using logic/reason combined with nature/God given innate senses and empathy.

There's the rub. As a Catholic, I have two Books. The Book of Nature (the world), and the Book of Revelation (Bible). It's all about how you interpret the date.

That action ... to take from others ... without consent and agreement what one wants when they want it ...

This is the very reason societies established 'individual rights', which are in effect 'codes of conduct' which you have to abide to if you want to be in the club.

... because if they do that ... they will eventually receive a recompense one way or the other.

Really? You mean crime never pays? That bad men never flourish?

Crack that one, and you can rewrite the Book of Job. (Unless, of course, you're going to counter with the idea of karma, and redress in another life.)

Cooperation, empathy, consent are the only way individuals and the collectives they are part of ... and a species of highly sentient creatures can even exist, replicate, and survive long term. Even lower mammals innately understand these principles...more or less(less than higher mammals, but they do display this awareness nonetheles)...even w/out higher creative sentient cognition.

Well that's my point — the collective trumps the individual.

No man is an island, and all that.

The whole is greater than the sum of its individual parts.

 

[RJM]

But Okkam's Razor would say that the more likely evolution of such concepts is ground-up pragmatism, rather than top-down consciousness/intuition, for all the reason's you've outlined below.

I agree. Most social mores originated for tribal survival and did not apply to anyone outside the tribe because non-members were non-people to whom the tribal rules do not apply?

Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan extended 'the golden rule' beyond the tribe to all humanity?

 

[Contrarian Deist]

That seems like an anthropomorphism. You'd have to give me examples.


Again, this is really complex when you introduce complex conceptual constructs ... personally I regard 'symbiosis' as a more reliable view of evolution than the Enlightenment's rather misogynistic 'Nature as Wanton Woman', 'needing to be tamed' and 'red in tooth and claw'. Survival of the fittest, of course, means rich and privileged bearded old white men are best suited to rule the roost.


But Okkam's Razor would say that the more likely evolution of such concepts is ground-up pragmatism, rather than top-down consciousness/intuition, for all the reason's you've outlined below.


Hmm ... not really.

Have you done the Psychopath Test? There's a lot more of us around than you'd imagine, it's just the word is bandied about too easily. The emergence of the classic psycho killer is rare, among a wide tranche of people who all score the same on the test. Same with OCD and autism — we're all on the spectrum, the dividing line between OK and problematic is a construct ... all this reflects on the idea and interplay of individual v societal good.


There's the rub. As a Catholic, I have two Books. The Book of Nature (the world), and the Book of Revelation (Bible). It's all about how you interpret the date.


This is the very reason societies established 'individual rights', which are in effect 'codes of conduct' which you have to abide to if you want to be in the club.


Really? You mean crime never pays? That bad men never flourish?

Crack that one, and you can rewrite the Book of Job. (Unless, of course, you're going to counter with the idea of karma, and redress in another life.)


Well that's my point — the collective trumps the individual.

No man is an island, and all that.

The whole is greater than the sum of its individual parts.

I'll try and respons to some of your other points/arguments later.
For now I just wanted to address the psychopath thing.
Studies, to my understanding, have proven only at most 3 or 4 percent(somewhere between 1% and 3/4%) of humans are psychopathic or hard sociopaths.
The rest are empath...that CAN be socialized to become more sociopathic but not fully, and they can't be socialized to become full psychopaths.
My understanding of sociopath and psychopath(I understand the two USED to be lumped together in dsmv and psychology, as was antisocial personality disorder)..but that in more recent years they've been able to mark a distinction between the two(three) and with varying degrees or grades of each.
Basically a strong psychopath is someone who both lacks the ability to empathize but ALSO has bloodlust...or at least very violent tendencies or...at least gains enjoyment or pleasure at seeing others seriously hurt or hurting. Whereas your common sociopath just lacks empathy(to one degree or another, there are weak and middle and strong sociopaths) but doesn't have bloodlust or neccaserily violent tendencies or even neccaserily(for weak sociopaths) derive overt pleasure or enjoyment from seeing others hurting...thet just are at worst...indifferent(unless, for weak sociopaths...it is someone they are particularly close to...as they can feel loyalty, honor, love...in some sense).

I will try and address your other points/arguments later.

 

[Contrarian Deist]

More for Thomas.

So think of it this way.
Lower life forms with smaller/less complex brains have sense of creative sentience, they are more prone as species to less inter-individual situational empathy.
Take insects...for example. They are mostly bundles of nerves with very small, uncomplex brains. They are often of more of a hive mind and less individualistic sense of *I* and *other*. Some even procreate with their progeny or even eat their young...or other members of their own species...females of certain subspecies of spiders are known to kill and ear their mates.
As you move higher up the rung of species from that to reptile up to mammals and up the ladder of various mammal subspecies....the species become increasingly of a higher subject/self-object/others and creative sentience...as they do they become less likely to do those things...at least as a inborn trait of their nature(though they can be socialized to become moreso) and they also are more prone to empathy...not just for their own species members,,.but for others as well.
Nonhuman mammals for example, we see many examples of say a wolf adopting bear cub or adult dogs forming emotional connections to kittens, etc,etc, not always...but more often than lower mammals or reptiles or insects, etc.
And homosapiens especially have these traits moreso than even other mammals.
Higher mammals like canine and feline and pigs and horses will form emotional bonds with humans and Visa versa. More and more humans see it as part of the role of our species to maintain and caretakers other species...and the caretakers of nature. That doesn't translate to being vegan or minimalists(though it can and does for some humans...by choice p, by nature we're still omnivores and still inclined to technological innovation,etc).
As species evolve into higher lifeforms with higher creative sentience and higher levels of awareness of their own individual and collective conciousness and cognition...they start to become more aware of and prone to try and dissect and understand the greater cosmos around them...including both the material and immaterial(or more subtle material...ie. astral/mystic/spiritual or Soul-ar)....and their interconnectedness to it all. Many people, including increasingly more and more scientists and rationalist inclined people are starting to acknowledge this and its connection to the quantum part of nature/cosmos....many, myself included, would posit...this is the one universal divine mind becoming aware of itself again, evidence and good reading to think God/divine mind exists.
One might argue- ok, fine, but that just means God is being born and there was no God/divine mind prior to the universe as we know now 15 billion years ago(beyond spave/time as we comprehend it now) being born in the big bang.
But....many scientists and logicians believe that the appearance of design is indeed what it appears to be...design, the order and complexity and the nature of natures laws presuppose the arising of first a quantum cosmic self-consciousness which organizes the quantum particles into atomic particles or matter...which eventually naturally leads to life ...leading to more complex arrangements of particles into the building blocks of intelligent lifeforms...which over time evolve to become aware of awareness...and aware of interconnectedness....which leads back to one divine mind/being.
The proof is in the pudding itself, its staring us right in the face.,,so much so that ignoring or denying it is to willfully and ignore the blatantly obvious.

Divine self love of the divine loving itself, via its constituent parts first loving themselves and then also extending that into empathy for other selves...which are all provably intertwined and interconnected.
And this is why as more highly evolved species with higher levels of creative intelligence and cognition and self/others/interconnected awareness ....such as..higher mammals...including humans...gain more and more empathic traits and the psychopathologies start to wane and become less and less prominent(which is why higher mammals and homosapiens are more prone to empathy for each other than say reptiles or say insects or say amoebas or viruses, and why hard sociopaths and psychopaths only make up a few percent of the species...and in the past when we had lower intellectual abilities...or at least less of us had average to higher than average IQs or intellectuality and less understanding of all these concepts...more humans likely had less empathy...for example...less openness to other subtypes/races/cultures/etc...we only had it mostly for our own clan or tribe or race or culture...and we've expanded that more recently...and psychopathy is decreasing....the only problem we have now is more psychopaths is places of extreme power who are propagandizing us and trying to brainwash us to become more sociopathic...and to hate each other to fulfill their powermad agendas... but as if right now more people are become aware of this and the upper echelon psychopaths are in panic mode...hence the crisis we are currently in. We are at a crossroads.

Anyways. Sorry for the rant, I tend to get into a stream of conciousness when I speak(especially when I write) upon such subjects.

More to come later.,.,

 

[Contrarian Deist]

I really reccomend the writings of physicist Paul Davies on some of this subject matter or related subject matter,
*Cosmic Jackpot* is a good place to start, and *God and the new physics* and *mond of god*,
Also would reccomend the short story by Scott Adams(dilbert comic creator) *Gods debris*, and lastly *there is a God. How the worlds most notorious atheist changed his mind* by philosophy professor Antony Flew.
Those mostly just explain the design evidence in nature, the logic behind the universe and life meaning something(purpose), not as much so on the other related issues I've opined upon here(a little).

 

[Contrarian Deist]

I agree. Most social mores originated for tribal survival and did not apply to anyone outside the tribe because non-members were non-people to whom the tribal rules do not apply?

Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan extended 'the golden rule' beyond the tribe to all humanity?

Read my above responses, please and thanks.

The question I would pose to you, in light of what I shared above, how abd why do you think those social mores for tribal survival arose, and how/why is it that so many of those mores(not all, but many) seemed to arise in ALL tribes and cultures....independently of each other before they even had much of any contact with or knowledge of each other? If not that they did because of something innate that arises in creatively sentient species and beings arising from natural quantum spiritual/moral laws ...written into the very fabric of nature meant to arise naturally in disconnected sentient creative species and beings?
And if this hypothesis had validity, who or what wrote that in and...why?

 

[RJM]

why is it that so many of those mores(not all, but many) seemed to arise in ALL tribes and cultures....independently of each other

Because murder within the tribe thins the tribe and the tribe needs to be strong. Because adultery leads to all sorts of tribal problems and sexual diseases. Because incest leads to genetic problems. Because tribes need to share resources for the strength of the tribe and therefore theft cannot be condoned. The mores apply equally to African tribes or Amazonian Indians or Asian Mongol tribes.

 

[Thomas]

I agree. Most social mores originated for tribal survival and did not apply to anyone outside the tribe because non-members were non-people to whom the tribal rules do not apply?

Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan extended 'the golden rule' beyond the tribe to all humanity?

Indeed so, and particularly, I believe, a tribe that was disliked by the orthodox Jews. Ditto with the Samaritan woman at the well. Ditto with the centurion with the sick daughter ...

 

[Thomas]

Studies, to my understanding, have proven only at most 3 or 4 percent(somewhere between 1% and 3/4%) of humans are psychopathic or hard sociopaths.

Depends where you draw the line. In terms of 'hard', your sociopath, your serial killer, etc., then yes, it's a very small figure. But as you move up the scale, then like every condition, the line blurs.

 

[Thomas]

Lower life forms with smaller/less complex brains have sense of creative sentience, they are more prone as species to less inter-individual situational empathy.

OK.

More and more humans see it as part of the role of our species to maintain and caretakers other species...

Well more and more are becoming informed of environmental and ecological hazard.

But we are the only species, I think, that hunts and kills others for 'pleasure'.

Many people ... would posit ... this is the one universal divine mind becoming aware of itself again, evidence and good reading to think God/divine mind exists.

I'd have to say then that the Great Religious Traditions have, generally, a different working definition of 'Divine'.

As a quick explanation, the Divine is Uncreated, it neither grows nor diminishes, it is neither more nor less, it cannot be added to nor taken away from, and it does not suffer ignorance or unknowing, nor does it learn of discover ... it's not a nature in the sense of other natural things.

... but that just means God is being born and there was no God/divine mind prior to the universe as we know now 15 billion years ago(beyond spave/time as we comprehend it now) being born in the big bang.

I'd say no, The Material Cosmos is something, God is not 'thing' as other 'things' are.

So before the Big Bang, God Is. And after this creation disappears, God still Is.

But ...many scientists and logicians believe that the appearance of design is indeed what it appears to be...design...

If you mean Intelligent Design as a proof of God, that was the product of a Right-Wing American Christian Think-Tank, and has been disproved on both logical and theological grounds.

... natures laws presuppose the arising of first a quantum cosmic self-consciousness ...

Er, don't think it does.

And this is why as more highly evolved species with higher levels of creative intelligence and cognition and self/others/interconnected awareness ... gain more and more empathic traits and the psychopathologies start to wane and become less and less prominent ...

And yet the history of human activity over the last couple of millennia shows an unhindered propensity to slaughter each other? We're the single most destructive and self-destructive species on the planet ... and despite everyone shouting that time is running out, there is no real grass-roots desire to embrace the necessary changes to prevent an ecological or environmental disaster...

For the Love of God, simply asking someone to wear a face mask to protect others from our germs has caused hysteria in some sectors of the population. Where's the empathy there?

... and psychopathy is decreasing ...

Can you evidence that?

 

[Contrarian Deist]

Basically the implication then is we should think moral/ethical ideas are completely arbitrary a d none have ANY basis whatsoever in any natural laws derived from the divine mind that birthed cosmos and natural laws and all are arbitrary made up by *authorities* in govt or of a tribez hierarchy? Basically OBEDIENCE to arbitrary laws that have no real basis beyond that?

Obedience to arbitrary human authoritarians and mob rule or obedience to nature/nature divine(natures god)...values that are innate, inalienable...derived from natures laws and natures God, or values derived arbitrarily from mob rule or authoritarians.
Take yous pick.

 

[Contrarian Deist]

No, thomas, we are the only species on earth at least that has the creative intelligence enough or higher cognition..or awareness that we are killing *for pleasure*. You think when other species dont feel a pleasure when they kill(for food, for territory, a couple cats mauling each other over nothing...toll ones dead...you think that cat doesn't have a sense of victory..ie. pleasure?).
We are the one on our planet that had the higher cognition of a creative prefrontal cortex to REALIZE we are killing for pleasure, that's all,
Doesn't mean we're the only one that derives pleasure from it.
And we are also the only one with that higher cognition to REALIZE why it is bad and to amend our behaviour(and...also our understanding of why it is bad and why we should ammend)...except for that very small %tags of homosapiens that are socio/psychopathic(which are operating on their reptilian cortex...lower species parts of their brain...only with greater intellect than lower animals like reptiles,etc)...the rest, 0ver 95% of us operate on a higher level with conscience AND intellect.
This seems to be the outcome of biological evolution of species...at least on this planet...and therefore it seems reasonable to presume the probability that this is a ingrained law of nature through the cosmos(and derived from base conciousness at the quantum/astral/spiritual level....which is more directly connected to divine mind/god/creator-emanator).

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

and using the word warrior.

If it needed to be clarified, SWJ don't call themselves SJW, it's purely a pejorative term.

 

[Contrarian Deist]

[QUOTE="A Cup Of Tea)

They call themselves by the first two letters/words(SJ Activists/advocates) but they have earned the third letter...because they ACT like *warriors* ...about it...in a imposing and authoritarian and often violent way(though outside their mobs and apart from their put on auras of being brave warrior like. More often than not outside their authoritarian and violent mobs, they tend to be...well let's put this way....The opposite of a brave *warrior*)

They're pretty much earned through their attitudes and their behaviours(both in their mobs as well as in their authoritarianism) the pejorative.

 

[Cino]

So which is it that you don't like about them, social justice, or the means they choose to try to bring it about?

 

[wil]

It is always traumatic for the dinosaurs as their ecosystem collapses.

Shift happens.