Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by davidsheep88, Mar 22, 2021.

  1. davidsheep88

    davidsheep88 Member

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    We start from the beggining when Adam was giving the power to name the animals G-d gave him freewill to choose Genesis 2:20.
    20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

    Here G-d gives Adam gives him ability to think for himself and he decide the animals name.

    There is difference from the freewill Hebrew people back in the days of Noah and Moses when the law was directed to G-d's people they had freewill to decide. Their decision is under the law because they did not know other religions or ways they were narrowminded but still the decision from good and evil existed. Did the errors of their fathers before them I mean the fall of Adam stopped them making decisions in their life. Israel did what they want based still of need of surviving. Killing, eating, proceating needs of humanity but no matter what the error of Adam did not take freewill from them.

    Romans 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.”

    Ezekiel 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

    Psalm 110:2 "Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew."



    From the day pagans evolved into modern world and establish their own way. Even thou they seperated from their pagan worhsip Rome forced them to mix their deities and influence with christianism and robbed the followers of Christ of Jesus and they painted him white. Named the G-d of Israel to Zeus and change their panteon.

    Hebrew law or mosaic law reminds people to obey but G-d has taken prophets to save and do the will of G-d in wars, missions, and choosing good and evil. They break the law in disobeying G-d, prophets like Jeremiah who chose G-d disobey tradition and his father and told Israel their errors and love for the temple forgotten the temple inside they are made of. Kick Jeremiah out of their circle rejected from society he continued, we have Elijah who many don't talk about but he change the words of G-d and sentence Jezabel but G-d only wanted to punish Jezabel but Elijah added her family as punishment. G-d was angry at Elijah but forgave him. Still G-d's plan was only Jezabel but he made an exception for Elijah and freewill existed and changed yes G-d allows it.

    People can change their course in life but what is the promblem from today. Is how the Greek way of thinking of liberalism was popular in the time of Jesus.

    James 2:12 "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."

    2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."


    And Greeks influence the time of jesus that people like Luke wrote his book in the bible and later Catholic church not knowing fully Hebrew culture copied things from greeks and influence the bible. Remember they were not G-d's people but A country that stoled and wrote their intrepretation of G-d and took Jesus as an emblema that is not real.

    Greek theology is freedom and rationalist thought, Hebrew people is Law and Relation with the one G-d. Greeks have influence the modernworld and gives them right, the western world copies Greek and Roman culture and their diffinity in their laws have given the modern topic freewill. So freewill clashes with freewill in the old times. That is why everything has to do with predestination, Calvanism go ahead and read see all our versions of choosing good and evil have consequences but still you decide your future.


    There are 2 fields :indeterminism and determinism explain modern freewill and both give notion of control. Indeterminism means free acts are not determine in other words what you do with works does not foretold your future and the path you have chosen. Determinism says everything you do has already decided your future and you have no career. Nothing can change your destiny but G-d can.

    Matthew 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    God's general sovereignty- says god is in charge of everything but doesn't control everything
    God's specific sovereignty- says that He not only has ordained everything, but He also controls everything.

    Proverbs 16:9 “The mind of the man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

    Proverbs 3:5-6"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."
     
  2. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Bingo, imo
     
  3. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    I'm not free to will my breath to stop indefinitely. Sooner or later some reflex will override my will.

    I'm not free to will myself to fly. If I jump out of the window, I'll fall, no matter what is my will.

    ...

    So, there are physical and physiological constraints to my will.

    Which one of your terms do these examples describe? Determinism or indeterminism?
     
  4. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    Free will becomes our judgement day.

    Without free will, there can be no judgement.

    Regards Tony
     
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  5. davidsheep88

    davidsheep88 Member

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    Determinism they are controlled by God general sovereignity.
     
  6. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    I see God gifted choice, there is much written on this now, this is one thought.

    "... Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.... " Abdul'baha

    Regards Tony
     
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  7. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    In a general sense I agree. Let's look at some more specific aspects:

    I base my ethical sense of right and wrong on what I learn about society and myself. At one point in my life, I felt it was right for me to eat the meat of some kinds of animals. Now, I think it is wrong for me to do so. So my will is not entirely free but highly susceptible to my life experience, the company I keep, the news I watch and so on.
     
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  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Doesn't that simply mean that as you grow and learn, you have the free will to decide what side of the street you walk on? You can cross the street as many times as you wish to? You are not forced to act upon your thoughts? Of course the human experience is limited to the human dimension of nature, and of course free will is contained within that limit.
     
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  9. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    Nature and nurture do bind us to certain frames of references, free will allows us to consider alternate paths in both nature and nurture.

    With science we can alter the laws of nature, with nurture we can choose other paths.

    That is the choice Christ is giving to us, to be born again into universes full of new frames of references and to me this is the gift of free will. If we were not capable of making choices, then we are just an animal bound to nature, we would have no ability in science or faith.

    The issue we have is, in this age more so, is that we are nurtured in pride of self and find it hard to submit to a knowledge far greater than we can ever be. When we partake of knowledge, knowing we can not know it all, then to me, the door then opens to learn all that we possibly can, knowing the source of that knowledge is not us, we have just opened the possibilities within.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Perhaps science is about understanding the laws of nature and making use of them rather than altering them?
     
  11. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    My though was, when reading your supposition, was that splitting an atom to kill human beings, seems to be well and truly altering what atoms were all about.

    Regards Tony
     
  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Well fire can be a tool or a weapon? The atom is a force of nature that can be channelled for good or for evil?

    But I understand what you're saying
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2021
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  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Why did Allah give the power to do evil to man? What do Bahaollah, Abdul Baha or Shoghi say about that?
     
  14. davidsheep88

    davidsheep88 Member

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    evil and good are just elements. He wanted us to be in him forver in love it. The enemy is the one who did us wrong.
     
  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Forcing us to love him? No, I love someone else, something else.
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    No ... We did not invent it...

    We are free to do whatever we want within the confines of what we can, we just cannot change consequences...no different than any other being on earth.
     
  17. davidsheep88

    davidsheep88 Member

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    We have freewill God lets us decide to do good or bad and our purpose in life is when we make that decision. it's easy to not know that purpose because we are different. But freewill God gives it but he also gives us the law and the law is not wrong and niether is freewill just soceity itself is wrong and we have forgotten what is the normal back in those days. Society mistakes and thinks G-d is against freewill but gave freewill the right to choose and they have invented freewill is voting, paying taxes, and civics duties.

    No people those things are the mistake modern society makes because they think they have evolved in such A way they surpass all of Israel back in those day but truth G-d is fair and gave us all. We have lost what is important love because human society is wrong and it's foundation is false and invented by masons.

    G-d created it all the rocks, the atmosphere, everything has been giving and from all that we have built buildings and empires everything we have built has come from him modern world is our work and act but we do not acknowledge them we take the glory and everything for we are sinful. The concept of government we have created but we emulated it from G-d and his kingdom the order G-d has it first, the structure he establish since the dawn of the universe.

    We have created rights but we cannot use our rights agaisnt G-d and say he has violated them or civic manner say our freedom and establishment of our democracy hits against G-d and his kingdom. For he has the kingdom and the law. The law of his word and we do not have that for G-d gave us words but we are babylon the law is only his. Nor it belongs to hebrew people, eunuchs, or angels it only belongs to him to judge.

    Our own system is flaw because we copy from each empire that has been establish Babylon, Rome, Greece, Britian, and Nazi Germany. Each has given its concept of right and law and all have copied each other and failed. Because again bible has establish that G-d and his system works and we with our notion of democracy and rights have copied on Rome and Babylon and they are wrong.

    The most important things that because we have technology which has help us after world war 2 we think we have surpass it all and enter the digitla world and we circumvalent our promblems of family, corruption, and normal things we had before the 1950's and think we are gods. And we want to be eternal and to be like powerful like G-d because it is what we have always been thinking because all of it is copy. When we are original and have the right system like he does everything works but our government and system does not because we are with flaws and our own boundaries aren't the solutions they are A reminder that we will never have A perfect system thus our rights and belief in them cannot be the truth.

    The freewill is revealed that there is A difference from freewill with G-d on accepting the right and wrong and succeeding in that way and from freewill from our modern concept which has failed and clashes with G-d's law which is right and truth and unless we do not use our rights against G-d freewill is that what we make only A lie and it existence false.

    Freewill from that point of view is that of society and since society has masonry in it and all foundations of masonery is babylon and Dagon it compells people to make G-d like unfair despotism but you cannot apply that to G-d for he is G-d and he is God of Gods those words are just feeble people who make laws copying the old empires and fallacy arrives in it's policy.

    There is A way government can follow G-d's politics but that will be another day. But people and society will always collapse confronting and using thier rights and saying there is no freewill when you have to one understand things from G-d's point of view understand what serveth the law, how the law is completed thru love and how faith as A tool helps you make A better realtionship with G-d.

    When you find the truth and love in his way that G-d establish thru Jesus Christ you understand A secret way which freewill co-exist with G-d and love is what that bound unites it and makes freewill work but not under modern society but thru G-d mosaic law and know that is true freewill has been given to you but from the stance of modern world and republics establish go into error. I will explain more but have did A lot.
     
  18. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Those pesky masons.

    You mention both the importance of Laws of Moses, and of Jesus. Now I always thought Christians in general do not keep most of the commandments which Moses received, but rather the new commandment revealed by Jesus? I'm not saying you have to conform to my ideas, but I'm interested how you hold this?

    Regarding modes of government, you mention kingdoms repeatedly, but the Laws of Moses contain no allusions to kingship, I think, and the kingdom of Saul, David, Solomon etc was an innovation (resisted by the prophets) over the original federation of tribes, moderated by judges and prophets? Which one is the ideal in your view, federation or royalty?
     
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Jesus wanted a kingdom.
     
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    This is philosophy?
     

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