Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

Thomas

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This universe was created. How many universes have been created before? Perhaps all universes have expanded from Nothing, collapsed when they got too big(or god wanted a new form), and that expansion/collapse cycle has been going on eternally?
I think this just kicks the tin-can down the road.

I mean, whether or not there were universes before, or to come ... or equally, whether all universes exist simultaneously (why do they have to be one-after-the-other?) This is the only one we've got ...

So...you have no holy text or deep convo for reference. Yet you just know the space-time nature of God?
Hang on here.

'God' is a term that applies broadly, but there are certain predicates that are so common to be universal. So the question you pose reflects back the question, 'are you talking about God as I understand God, and if not, then upon what is your knowledge based?'

I only ask, because you're idea of original sin seems based on info from an unreliable source.

+++
 

RJM

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I'm off to the ecumenical centre.
Our faith does not have to be a source of division, unless you make it so. :)

Some people there think that if you don't believe in the trinity, you shouldn't be there [ not a Christian ]
..others either are not interested in scripture/creed, or are more tolerant.
Have a good day :)
 

RJM

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only ask, because you're idea of original sin seems based on info from an unreliable source.
To me it's a universal concept, we are all born in sin because although we are all natural creatures. Nature makes us all killers from the womb. It's the unavoidable consequence of human birth. Various institutions try to define it, to suit their own paradigm*

* But the scriptures speak individually to the heart of every person?
(edited)
 
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Thomas

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From a neuroscientific stance free will is an illusion.
How then can you validate your LHP?

On the theological side of free will, I tend to see the actual term 'free will' to be a misapprehension of its true meaning. Instead of 'free will' I would suggest the more left hand path comprehension in the form of 'freedom from the will of another'.
OK, but that still falls under the fact that the supposed 'freedom from the will of another' is an illusion.

‑from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Testimonial of Truth:
"the God whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is 'himself' one of the fallen angels, from whose tyranny Christ came to set human beings free."
I can't find that. Can you pinpoint where?

The original sin contends that every human life begins under the curse of the Abrahamic god.
Nope.

Eve was obviously naive and innocent, she wouldn't know that disobeying God's command would be Evil, how could she?
She didn't have to know evil. She knew enough to know it was an act of disobedience.

The Serpent he makes his debut in the Testaments in the Garden of Eden pointing out to Eve that God is a liar and she will not die that day if she eats of the fruit of knowledge, which she did and did not die.
The text says: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) ... and yet she did, and we do.
The text then says: "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4). And they ate and lo, they saw themselves not as gods at all. They felt 'naked' in a way they had no sense of before, and they felt shame, which they had no sense of before ... so in no way can their new vision be seen as godlike. Quite the opposite, I'd say.

Nor does knowledge of good and evil define what a god is. Such knowledge does not make you a god ... so where's the truth in that?

+++

But my first and primary point is how does a LHP practitioner protect against delusion when subjectivity, which the path seems to be based on(?) is the part most subject to error and illusion?
 
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badger

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I'm off to the ecumenical centre.
Our faith does not have to be a source of division, unless you make it so. :)

Some people there think that if you don't believe in the trinity, you shouldn't be there [ not a Christian ]
..others either are not interested in scripture/creed, or are more tolerant.
Is there no division within Islam?
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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The greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, and is not turned by it, imo. Satanism eventually may be the rebellion of nature -- the belief that nature 'red in tooth and claw' is a law sufficient unto itself?
IMO
Most Satanists are atheists and don't subscribe to anything supernatural. Nature is seen as it is, a process or mechanism of natural selection.
 

RJM

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Most Satanists are atheists and don't subscribe to anything supernatural. Nature is seen as it is, a process or mechanism of natural selection.
Fair enough. But then why tag yourself to a fallen angel? Nature (satan) 'the lord of this world' -- declaring himself separated, independent from Spirit (God). Am just thinking and musing about the idea?
 
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'Amir Alzzalam

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How then can you validate your LHP?
Validate it in what way and why?


OK, but that still falls under the fact that the supposed 'freedom from the will of another' is an illusion.
I don't see how being free from another's Will would be an illusion. I am free from the Will of the Abrahamic god, are you saying that is an illusion and that I am still under His Will, like it or not? I don't accept that. I am free from your Will, you have no control over me, I am not influenced by you, etc. Is that also an illusion?


"‑from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Testimonial of Truth:
"the God whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is 'himself' one of the fallen angels, from whose tyranny Christ came to set human beings free."

I can't find that. Can you pinpoint where?
"The Testimony even claims that the God whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is himself one of the fallen angels — indeed, the chief of the fallen angels, from whose tyranny Christ came to set human beings free: for, the Testimony declares:
"... like Isaiah, who was sawed with a saw, (and) he became two. So also the Son of Man divides us by the word of the cross. It divides the day from the night and the light from the darkness and the corruptible from incorruptibility, and it divides the males from the females. But Isaiah is the type of the body. The saw is the word of the Son of Man, which separates us from the error of the angels."



"The original sin contends that every human life begins under the curse of the Abrahamic god."
Nope.
Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God[/quote]

She didn't have to know evil. She knew enough to know it was an act of disobedience.
Hence this discussion on being Free from the Will of Another :D


The text says: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) ... and yet she did, and we do.
The text then says: "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4). And they ate and lo, they saw themselves not as gods at all. They felt 'naked' in a way they had no sense of before, and they felt shame, which they had no sense of before ... so in no way can their new vision be seen as godlike. Quite the opposite, I'd say.

Nor does knowledge of good and evil define what a god is. Such knowledge does not make you a god ... so where's the truth in that?

+++

But my first and primary point is how does a LHP practitioner protect against delusion when subjectivity, which the path seems to be based on(?) is the part most subject to error and illusion?
Did Adam and Eve have the intrinsic ability within their created nature to live forever? Or was their living forever contingent upon their access to what the scripture refers to as the “Tree of Life?”

Genesis 3:22 - And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

So, Adam was not immortal,eating of the Tree of Life would make him so, therefore in this Light Gen.3:4 can only be understood to mean that God warns Eve not to eat the fruit because Then and There she would die, which she did anyway and did not die . . . the Serpent, again, spoke the Truth. ;)
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Fair enough. But then why tag yourself to a fallen angel? Nature (satan) 'the lord of this world' -- declaring himself separated, independent from Spirit (God). Am just thinking and musing about the idea?
Well first. I am not a Satanist but I can answer your question nonetheless.

Satan to NonTheistic Satanists is an archetype/symbol that represents 'rebellious individuality' and non-conformity, a process of externalizing your True-Self. A celebration rather than a condemnation of his humanity, a seemingly non-stop lust for imagination, exploration, and creativity. Satan to the Satanist is more like Milton's Satan or the mythology of Iblīs/‘Azāzīl where these archetypes are seen as the champion and savior of mankind.
 
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RJM

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Well first. I am not a Satanist but I can answer your question nonetheless.

Satan to NonTheistic Satanists is an archetype/symbol that represents 'rebellious individuality' and non-conformity, a process of externalizing your True-Self. A celebration rather than a condemnation of his humanity, a seemingly non-stop lust for imagination, exploration, and creativity. Satan to the Satanist is more like Milton's Satan or the mythology of Iblīs/‘Azāzīl where these archetypes are seen as the champion and savior of mankind.
This would tie in with the image of the rebellious angels, and the fall of nature through Adam and Eve? Nature claims independence from the very Spirit that gives it reality -- the room claims independence from the house that enables it to exist?

A bit ... it's just loose thoughts? In that separation is the seed of death -- the perceived separation of the nature dimension of time and space from the eternity of Spirit that surrounds and contains and permeates it?
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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This would tie in with the image of the rebellious angels, and the fall of nature through Adam and Eve? Nature claims independence from the very Spirit that gives it reality -- the room claims independence from the house that enables it to exist?

A bit ... it's just loose thoughts? In that separation is the seed of death -- the perceived separation of the nature dimension of time and space from the eternity of Spirit that surrounds and contains and permeates it?
Perhaps an explanation of the two universes from a western left hand path perspective might help.
1. Objective Universe (OU): Things are as they "are." Time, space, matter, energy, etc.
2. Subjective Universe (SU): Our unique personal perspective and experience of the OU. What we interpret and perceive it as.
We perceive the 'spirit' (soul/psyche) and our individual Consciousness as separate from the objective universe
 
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RJM

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We perceive the 'spirit' (soul/psyche) and our individual Consciousness as separate from the objective universe
Ah ... but can it be separated from the universe that contains it amongst galaxies, and which permeates it to the energies that constitute the smallest sub-atomic particles?
 

Vasu Devan

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I think this just kicks the tin-can down the road.

.....'are you talking about God as I understand God, and if not, then upon what is your knowledge based?'

I only ask, because you're idea of original sin seems based on info from an unreliable source.

+++
As you understand God....
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Ah ... but can it be separated from the universe that contains it amongst galaxies, and which permeates it to the energies that constitute the smallest sub-atomic particles?
The western left hand path (WLHP) doesn't accept that things such as the soul/psyche, the mind, our Greater Self (Intelligence/Consciousness) to be contained within the objective universe. The objective universe is merely a nonconscious, unintelligent memetic mechanism of entropy and negentropy. The objective universe (OU) contains 'physical' things only. Quantum Physics is a means to explain things in this OU, a formula, the same with 'energy', which is seen as something objective.
 
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RJM

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The western left hand path (WLHP) doesn't accept that things such as the soul/psyche, the mind, our Greater Self (Intelligence/Consciousness) to be contained within the objective universe. The objective universe is merely a nonconscious, unintelligent memetic mechanism of entropy and negentropy. The objective universe (OU) contains 'physical' things only. Quantum Physics is a means to explain things in this OU, a formula, the same with 'energy', which is seen as something objective.
I can't balance that equation. But I'm not good at stuff Ike that
 

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Baptism is of the Spirit, which nature cannot stain. Water can be distilled from impurity. The water itself is always clean.

How do we know the God of this world is the same God of 4999 years ago? Perhaps the Gods of worlds move on -- ever higher, ever closer to the ONE ...
 
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muhammad_isa

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How do we know the God of this world is the same God as 4999 years ago?
..because there IS only One God .. One Creator and Sustainer .. He has no partners.

"gods" don't change like the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace. ;)
 

RJM

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