Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

[davidsheep88]

Yup thank G-d Jesus is king of kings highest status ever ! -_-.

 

[RJM]

Yup thank G-d Jesus is king of kings highest status ever ! -_-.

I believe Christ manifest as Jesus is the eternal bridge between God and carbon-based man. He is Emmanuel -- God with us -- Wonderful Counsellor. Christ gives us God as man, because god is also the god of a neutron star, and of fish, of birds and cattle and of whirling galaxies.

Perhaps we human beings, as the most developed carbon based life-form on our own planet, would not be able to recognize other forms of life on other worlds? Our instruments and detectors are really just extensions of our own natural senses of hearing, sight and touch and so on -- wonderful as they are. We cannot conceive of life outside of our ability to interface with nature via our limited carbon based facilities.

I believe there is life all around us all the time, often more advanced than man, but which we cannot directly see, unless such higher beings choose to reveal themselves to our carbon based senses. I believe many other worlds are inhabited, even in our own solar system, but by life we cannot recognize. I believe most other worlds, like our own, are themselves living entities.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I believe there is life all around us all the time, often more advanced than man, but which we cannot directly see, unless such higher beings choose to reveal themselves to our carbon based senses. I believe many other worlds are inhabited, even in our own solar system, but by life we cannot recognize. I believe most other worlds, like our own, are themselves living entities.

I don't remember reciting this creed in the choir-stalls.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..more like this..

Almighty and most merciful Father,
we have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep.
We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts.

We have offended against thy holy laws.
We have left undone those things
which we ought to have done;

and we have done those things
which we ought not to have done;
and there is no health in us.

But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us, miserable offenders.
Spare thou them, O God, which confess their faults.
Restore thou them that are penitent;

according to thy promises declared unto mankind in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake,
that we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life,
to the glory of thy holy name.

Amen.

Our Father, is the One God, who is everlasting.

 

[RJM]

Our Father, is the One God, who is everlasting.

Yes, IMO for us human beings in this world of nature -- of fathers and mothers, and birth and death, and time and space -- God indeed manifests as Father -- the One God who is everlasting -- and Christ in Jesus indeed as our wonderful counsellor and saviour, Emmanuel, God with us. Because that is how the divine is understood by man -- the God of whirling galaxies, yet 'closer than my jugular vein' and open to my own humble prayers.

But that does not preclude there may be other worlds -- perhaps infinite other worlds -- with different parameters for life? Some with their own 'god' yet contained and surrounded always by the final, ever higher, ever brighter, ever unreachable ONE?

My Father's house has many mansions ...

(edited)

 

[muhammad_isa]

1 O be joyful in the Lord, all ye lands :
serve the Lord with gladness,
and come before his presence with a song.

2 Be ye sure that the Lord he is God :
it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves;
we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

3 O go your way into his gates with thanksgiving,
and into his courts with praise :
be thankful unto him, and speak good of his Name.

4 For the Lord is gracious, his mercy is everlasting :
and his truth endureth from generation to generation.
- Psalms of David 100 -

Notice the bit I have bolded .. God was the same "truth" 5000 years ago.

"Lasting roughly 2.5 million years, the Stone Age ended around 5,000 years ago when humans in the Near East began working with metal and making tools and weapons from bronze. During the Stone Age, humans shared the planet with a number of now-extinct hominin relatives, including Neanderthals and Denisovans."

 

[RabbiO]

4 For the Lord is gracious, his mercy is everlasting :
and his truth endureth from generation to generation.
- Psalms of David 100 -

Notice the bit I have bolded .. God was the same "truth" 5000 years ago.

Your final point may or may not be correct, but the verse you chose does not make the point. The translation is off. It does not talk about G-d’s truth. It talks about G-d’s faith.

 

[Thomas]

Validate it in what way and why?

As a check against self-delusion. How can you preserve against subjective error when the subject is given absolute priority? What makes you think you have a Greater Self?

I don't see how being free from another's Will would be an illusion.

It would be if you were not in fact free, but only thought you were.

"The Testimony even claims that...

Hang on ... you quoted a text, I asked to see the citation. I read the text (what we have of it), and couldn't find it (although I might have missed it). I was just wondering whether you're citing what the text says, or what someone says the text says?

As for the rest, let me suggest this:

"the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." (Genesis 2:9-10)
According to the RHP, There is but one tree. The two trees are aspects of the one.

The tree is seen as a natural symbol of the cross. The trunk reaches above and below (the vertical axis) the ground (the horizontal axis) – the root system mirrors the branches (as above, so below). Again, the vertical or polar axis connects every hierarchy of every state of being by passing through their respective centres.

At any given level, the polar trunk represents the Principle which determines all subsequent activity (the Motionless Mover) and here we have the horizontal plane of the branches corresponding to all the possibilities and modes of manifestation.

These two axes are essence/substance, purusha/prakriti, and so on.

The Tree of Life is the Tree seen in its vertical and principial nature; the Tree of Knowledge it that Principle realised in manifest being, in all and every possibility.

Adam and Eve (putting aside the symbolism of a dual-aspected adrogyne, primordial and essential human) Are like leaves on the tree, they exist in a relation to each and every other leaf on their branch; their branch to all other branches, and the branches in relation to the trunk.

This knowledge they lost when they sought the knowledge of 'good and evil' which is the knowledge of self-for-self's-sake. The knowledge they lost was the intrinsic sense – in all that the term implies – of the good. Up until that moment they were part of a whole, all-in-all, their awareness was, in that way, unlimited.

So when 'their eyes were opened' we must assume their previous vision was lost, occluded, veiled. Now they experience loss, nakedness, separation, other-ness, shame and ignorance. They are alone, separate, even from each other ... they no longer see nor sense the unified interiority of things, it's all external surface now.

They had eternal life. They knew that when this body died, life goes on ... but now they have lost that, and face death as a finality, and end, a veil beyond which they know nothing, beyond which there is only darkness.

They exiled themselves from the Garden from the moment they ate the fruit. They hid, and God came looking ... and we've been hiding ever since, shouting 'find me', but frightened to step out of our little world ...

The Son of Man unites us by the Cross/Tree ...

 

[Thomas]

As you understand God....

If you got a better God?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your final point may or may not be correct, but the verse you chose does not make the point. The translation is off. It does not talk about G-d’s truth. It talks about G-d’s faith.

I think you're being pedantic

..and I doubt whether you believe that there is more than one G-d.
If you do, that is not monotheistic, imo.

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

Reply removed at user's own request

 

[Thomas]

We know our Greater Self eveytime we Create something, specifically a work of Art. We can find our Greater Self with each act that elevates us above our mundane lesser self.

Well as something of an artist, I can say 'OK', but I don't regard that Greater Self as anything more than the Self, really.

A while ago I found a text, read it, and was blown away. I then discovered that I wrote it! At the time I was deeply into certain writers, the Traditionalists. If I read a text, I'd know pretty quickly whether it was a trad author or not. I could believe I was channelling them ... but the more likely explanation is I had shaped my process according to theirs.

I know many writers who say they start from not-knowing, and their characters come alive on the page ... I don't see how creativity implies a greater self.

Most religions are based on faith.

I'd have to say the LHP seems to be.

Didn't I explain where the text comes from and its relativeness?

No. You posted:
‑from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Testimonial of Truth:
"the God whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is 'himself' one of the fallen angels, from whose tyranny Christ came to set human beings free."

I can't see that in the Testimony of Truth I'm looking at.

Looks like two trees to me.

Ah, well.

The Serpent made man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience;

Nah, not according to the text. He was more than a beast, and his obedience was according to the nature of things.

the Serpent emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity

Nonsense. Prior to taking his advice, man walked and talked with God.

was endowed to a higher degree than the animals of any other species with two precious faculties — the power to think and the desire to rebel.

Well he had the power to think before the serpent made his appearance, and therefore had the power to rebel, which is a choice, not a power. He had the free will to rebel, again, before the serpent.

I keep posting objections, you ignore them, because you have no argument.

+++

You can't have God on your terms, so you deny God's existence, and made a way of it ... that's all.

 

[RJM]

You can't have God on your terms, so you deny God's existence, and made a way of it ... that's all.

Bingo, imo

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

Well as something of an artist, I can say 'OK', but I don't regard that Greater Self as anything more than the Self, really.

A while ago I found a text, read it, and was blown away. I then discovered that I wrote it! At the time I was deeply into certain writers, the Traditionalists. If I read a text, I'd know pretty quickly whether it was a trad author or not. I could believe I was channelling them ... but the more likely explanation is I had shaped my process according to theirs.

I know many writers who say they start from not-knowing, and their characters come alive on the page ... I don't see how creativity implies a greater self.

I'd have to say the LHP seems to be.

No. You posted:
‑from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Testimonial of Truth:
"the God whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is 'himself' one of the fallen angels, from whose tyranny Christ came to set human beings free."

I can't see that in the Testimony of Truth I'm looking at.

Nah, not according to the text. He was more than a beast, and his obedience was according to the nature of things.

What text?

Nonsense. Prior to taking his advice, man walked and talked with God

Well he had the power to think before the serpent made his appearance, and therefore had the power to rebel, which is a choice, not a power. He had the free will to rebel, again, before the serpent.

I keep posting objections, you ignore them, because you have no argument.

You can't have God on your terms, so you deny God's existence, and made a way of it ... that's all.

Reply removed at user's own request

 

[Thomas]

Where do you think your 'channeling' came from? True Creation is a divine process, that process comes through us via our Greater Self.

As I say, I just think it's the nature of the creative process. I don't need a 'greater self' ...

My mistake, this was taken from Dr. Elaine Pagels' book "The Origin of Satan".

Ah, thanks, I understand now.

What text?

Scripture.

Here we end up pushing-and-pulling two readings of the same text, and neither is likely to make a point with the other, so I suggest we let it go... however ...

Yes, I deny all gods, devils, angels, and demons' existence, they are simply archetypal structures, nothing more.

I'm not as against that as you might suppose ... and I suppose, for brevity's sake, I'd say yes they are structures, but there is nevertheless an underlying reality, and the dissonance between what I see Christianity (for example) to mean and be, and what so often pops up here as 'Christians say ... ' or 'the Christian view...' which is so often utterly negative, is a failure on the part of Christians to get beneath the skin of the thing, and a vocal element to misguide so many, as much as a critique of those who assume to understand it from quite a superficial exposure (not having a pop at you here, btw!).

I'm thinking of posting some RHP thoughts on the particular Scripture we've discussed, you're welcome to comment there, but it won't be for a few days.

 

[RJM]

..and I doubt whether you believe that there is more than one G-d.
If you do, that is not monotheistic, imo.

It’s just so simple ...

 

[Namaste Jesus]

That may be true but, man was under the Will of God, not Free from His Will, the Serpent did indeed emancipate man from God's Will.

Your statement here rather proves the opposite. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, but man has had the freedom to choose whether or not to take part from the beginning. The fact that Adam and Eve were, to spite prior warning, still able to be influenced by Satan, proves we've always had freewill. They knew what God said, they knew what Satan said, A choice was made and that same choice exists for us today.

 

[RJM]

The cloth denies the loom

 

[muhammad_isa]

The fact that Adam and Eve were, to spite prior warning, still able to be influenced by Satan, proves we've always had freewill. They knew what God said, they knew what Satan said, A choice was made and that same choice exists for us today.

Absolutely right. We choose what spiritual path to follow.

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

Your statement here rather proves the opposite. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, but man has had the freedom to choose whether or not to take part from the beginning. The fact that Adam and Eve were, to spite prior warning, still able to be influenced by Satan, proves we've always had freewill. They knew what God said, they knew what Satan said, A choice was made and that same choice exists for us today.

Reply removed at user's own request