Reading with New Eyes, Hearing with New Ears

Thomas

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That is indeed the quandary we face.
Indeed.

The question then asked, is why it did not achieve the unity of humanity?
The question we must ask of ourselves before we will find it ... it's certainly no fault of the Message. Certainly, IMHO, it has never been better nor more succinctly and directly stated.

The answer may very well be that Jesus the Christ said He had much more to say unto us and that a day would come when the sheep of the other folds would become one flock under one Shepherd.
Indeed: ""And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." (John 10:16)


I live in hope! Until then, I am of the flock of the one and only shepherd: "I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me." (John 10:14).

The hardest choice we have as a soul, that is either brought up in, or found a faith, is to consider that we have more to see and more to hear.
OK, then I may ask ... what can you say (what can I hear) that has not already been said?
 
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RJM

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However I think these threads enable me to answer, which the Baha'i spokesmen are unwilling to answer directly:

As the self proclaimed new messenger the words of the Baha'u'lla ARE the words of the second coming of Christ and as such their wisdom at least equals that of Jesus. And over-rules the wisdom of Jesus where there may be discrepancy?

So to know more, it's necessary to read, for instance, Baha'u'llah's letter to the Pope (which completely ignores all the good and charity that is done by the Catholic church with the Pope as admin and puts him on a golden throne)


https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/PB/pb-26.html

Repeat:
Is it time to repeat the often forgotten point the Catholic Church is the biggest non-gov charity on earth, and has missionaries working with lepers and aids patients in the most difficult and dangerous places in the world
https://catholicherald.co.uk/a-worldwide-force-for-good/

The world’s biggest charity


"Stalin famously said of the Church, “The Pope! How many divisions has he?” Less well known is Churchill’s response that Stalin “might have mentioned a number of legions not always visible on parade”. Indeed, the reach and influence of the Church are not easily described by statistics alone, yet the raw statistics are staggering enough.

The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 other health clinics. Caritas, the umbrella organisation for Catholic aid agencies, estimates that spending by its affiliates totals between £2 billion and £4 billion, making it one of the biggest aid agencies in the world.

Even these numbers only tell half the tale. Caritas does not include development spending by a host of religious orders and other Catholic charities, while most of the 200,000 Catholic parishes around the world operate their own small-scale charitable projects which are never picked up in official figures. Establishing like-for-like comparisons is hard, but there can be little doubt that in pretty much every field of social action, from education to health to social care, the Church is the largest and most significant non-state organisation in the world.

A sceptic might point out that that influence can be both positive and negative. So, for example, it might be queried whether the Church’s work in education or health would be more effective if control was switched to the state. In some ways, this is the wrong question – in much of the developing world, if the Church was not involved, the services would not be provided at all. But there is a good deal of research which has attempted to compare the performance of Catholic provision of education or health with that of other providers and, in general, Catholic institutions come out rather well.

The health analyst Kenneth White, of Virginia Commonwealth University, found Catholic hospitals in the US to be on average more efficient than equivalent secular hospitals. This was a particularly remarkable finding given that he also discovered evidence that Catholic hospitals, reflecting their mission to reach out to disadvantaged communities, were providing more compassionate care and stigmatised services (to groups that often face discrimination) than other providers.

In Africa, a recent research review found not only that maternal care at Church-run mission hospitals was of the same or better quality than at public facilities, but that Church hospitals were also more likely to offer services accessible to the poor.

Looking at education, although it is well established that Catholic schools perform exceptionally well on standard academic criteria …"
read full article



QNLF3129.jpg

https://www.johnbradburne.com/leprosy/
 
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Tone Bristow-Stagg

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But he asked you a question:

No one really asked questions here RJM. Some just want information to refute. Much like you did to the majestic prophetic letter sent by Baha'u'llah to the Pope, a Pope who instigated the dogma of Papal infallibility defined by the First Vatican Council in 1870. (Pope Pius IX was head of the Catholic Church from 1846 to 1878)

Baha'u'llah gave him a chance to give it all up, yet he did not and in the end lost control of the papal states in 1870. Then he declared himself a "prisoner of the Vatican".

So that Tablet shows how accurately Baha'u'llah saw the fall of that Pope, and mentioned many things that needed to be done.

Some Popes since, have indeed been more open to what Baha'u'llah offered, in fact one even won a peace prize, by stating many things that the Baha'i Writings had before him.

Do not be surprised if I do not respond much anymore.

Regards Tony
 

RJM

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What I get is the Catholic Church is fair game for ridicule, but when a trinitarian has questions about the Baha'i faith, they are deflected with a superior attitude and flowery phrases
 
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Thomas

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No one really asked questions here RJM. Some just want information to refute.
Really, I'd like a response to logical objections. Have to say they're not forthcoming.

... by stating many things that the Baha'i Writings had before him.
OK, but the Baha'i Writings state many things which was said before Baha'u'lla ... I'm trying to figure out what Baha'u'lla or his followers have said that constitutes a 'revelation'.

But I can see this getting hard for you, so perhaps just read this as a view from where I stand.

All the best ...
 

RJM

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IMO people flocked to Jesus Christ as a healer, and stayed to listen to his simple parables that speak directly to the soul as clearly today as He did 2000 yrs ago. He healed and forgave sin. He healed the soul. He still does, all the time

He refused the gentile woman at first, to show that it was the people who came to him, and not the other way around. He wasn't scratching around to win followers -- they flocked around him all the time -- as they have continued to for two millenia since he was physically present in the world.

So we have the revelation of Baha'u'llah as the self-proclaimed second coming of Christ -- and then what else? What is the message? He has big shoes to fill. People are asking in sincerity -- I know I am -- but of course also with a normal degree of scepticism.

The people who could answer seem to take offence at the fact of being questioned?

The platform is being extended here
 
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RJM

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I understand the one-world message. I'm genuinely interested to know however what new spiritual message this newest messenger brings, that replaces or improves upon the message of the life and words of Jesus --or upon the teachings of Buddha or Krisna -- within my own heart and soul?
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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What I get is the Catholic Church is fair game for ridicule, but when a trinitarian has questions about the Baha'i faith, they are deflected with a superior attitude and flowery phrases

The Catholic Church in the Baha'i Writings has been confirmed as the Legitimate Custodian of the Covenant of Jesus the Christ. The rock upon which the Church was to be built.

"A Catholic background is an excellent introduction to the Faith, and one that Mrs. ... should feel gratified for having had. Though doctrines of the church today are no longer needed -- as the Father Himself has come, and thus fulfilled the mission of Christ the Son yet the foundation they lay of spiritual discipline, and their emphasis on spiritual values and adherence to moral laws, is very important and very close to our own beliefs."

Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 491

What we can consider, is that Baha'u'llah, as the "Father", in the same way that Jesus Christ the "Son" offered the Jewish ecclesiastical order, offered to the Pope and Christain ecclesiastical orders, the required path of change.

Regards Tony
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Maybe because you wrote it in direct response to me and included my quote...lol.

Either way I have no issues with this discussion and it is surely not yet complete (in my eyes nor yours)

Fair enough. Life is busy, time is short and my old dog gets me up around 3am each morning now.

That combined with my direct to the point mindset, is most likely not the best combination for productive discussions :oops:;)

That is a change I have to make within my own self, so it is a work in progress. Not sure there is enough time in eternity for me to change. :confused::D

Regards Tony
 
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Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Really, I'd like a response to logical objections. Have to say they're not forthcoming.

OK, but the Baha'i Writings state many things which was said before Baha'u'lla ... I'm trying to figure out what Baha'u'lla or his followers have said that constitutes a 'revelation'.

But I can see this getting hard for you, so perhaps just read this as a view from where I stand.

All the best ...

Baha'u'llah, like all the Messengers before Him has confirmed the Revelations that have come before.

Jesus offered this same concept in John 5:46,
"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me".

The eternal truths found in all God's Messages through all the Prophets get renewed in every age. As such that connection will be seen.

The Message is suited to the age and Baha'u'llah explained it like this, ".....The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements..."

So the issues the world faces today has been given the remedy, that remedy is not veiled, but plain to see given in a new Revelation, suited to this age.

This following quote is an example, it is Revelation from Gid, not in the Bible and not in the Quran or any other scripture, but it is suited to our age.

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …The day is approaching when all the peoples of the world will have adopted one universal language and one common script. When this is achieved, to whatsoever city a man may journey, it shall be as if he were entering his own home. These things are obligatory and absolutely essential. It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens."

There is over 100 volumes of Revelation, some will reflect the eternal covenant of God, the majority is suited to this age.

Regards Tony
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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I understand the one-world message. I'm genuinely interested to know however what new spiritual message this newest messenger brings, that replaces or improves upon the message of the life and words of Jesus --or upon the teachings of Buddha or Krisna -- within my own heart and soul?

RJM, see my reply to Thomas.

The eternal Spiritual Message is not replaced it is renewed and suited to the age it is given.

Just as the earth has seasons, so do the Messages given by God. After winter we have spring, renewal.

Baha'u'llah took what was of Jesus the Christ and showed it unto us.

John 16:14 "He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you"

Sorry time is short have to get ready for work.

Regards Tony
 

RJM

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There is over 100 volumes of Revelation, some will reflect the eternal covenant of God, the majority is suited to this age.
So what is the pith if it? I won't be reading 100 volumes of deliberately outdated olde worlde English translation.
The eternal Spiritual Message is not replaced it is renewed and suited to the age it is given.

Just as the earth has seasons, so do the Messages given by God. After winter we have spring, renewal.
But what IS the message?
 
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RJM

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Baha'u'llah is the second coming of Christ -- and then? What does he offer my soul?
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Baha'u'llah is the second coming of Christ -- and then? What does he offer my soul?

Your previous post I will return to after work.

Jesus offered we must be born again from the flesh into the Spirit. That Spirit is renewed in every age God gives a Message.

One must be born again. New eyes, new ears to see and hear what the Spirit has said to the Churches.

Always happy to discuss. It is the virtues we can all live by.

May Christ be with you always, regards Tony
 

RJM

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Jesus offered we must be born again from the flesh into the Spirit.
Basically all 'true' faiths say the same thing. It's nothing new. It's the most ancient spiritual teaching. It pertains to the individual soul. It's not a social rallying call. Is this the new revelation of Baha'u'llah -- the new Christ -- to turn the spiritual wisdom of the ages into a world unity rallying call? Complete with billowing waves of bounteous justice and wafting fragrance of gardens of flowers? Why aren't I 'feeling' it? Is there nothing else? Is this the great new spiritual revelation?
 
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Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Maybe one can consider this Biblical advice.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart

So maybe we only feel that Spirit when we become active in pursuing this advice.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Regards Tony
 

Cino

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Complete with billowing waves of bounteous justice and wafting fragrance of gardens of flowers?

Come on, RJM, you've plowed through impenetrable Taoist texts...

@Tone Bristow-Stagg is there a "key" for getting into the language of the texts? Something like "nightingale = Baha'u'llah" and so on?
 
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