Reading with New Eyes, Hearing with New Ears

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

@Tone Bristow-Stagg
Sorry. I'm genuinely not trying to be obstructive. I know you are sincere people. I respect your views and am not in this to create confrontation or bad feeling. Sorry if it comes across that way

It's all good RJM.

My heart is sad for humanity,
caught in a cycle of vanity.

Who has the eyes to see?
Who has the ears to hear?
What the Spirit said to the Churches.

Is it....

Those that make the bombs?
Those that oppress the minds of men?
Those that have hatred for race or gender?
Those that Love a Nation above human kind?
Those that want to divide and conquer?
Those that do all this in the name of Jesus?
Those that do this in the name of Muhammad?
Those that do that in the name of righteousness?
Those that do this to feed their own desires?

Or is it.....

Those that embrace the love of all humanity,
Those that embrace the oneness of God,
Those that see the earth as one home,
Those who beat swords into plowshares,
Those who learn war no more!

By their fruit you will know them!

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You say.

But I know God speaks directly and personally to every sincere human heart and soul -- regardless of time, place or religion (or no religion)

I would offer that is only through Jesus the Christ, ( the Messengers) when we are Born again into the Spirit that is Jesus the Christ.

John 5:37 is one such consideration.

"And the Father Himself, who hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape."

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Jesus was Christ "Anointed" of the Holy Spirit. It is that Holy Spirit that is a Christ in every Age and Jesus said

No. This is the Islamic view. The Christ is not annointed by angels. The Christ is lord of all angels, of life and death -- needs no consent of angels or of spirits

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

In the end, I think the Baha'i movement just want people to read their stuff. But my problem is that it's impenetrable:


https://bahai-library.com/abdul-baha_lawh_aflakiyyih

"Consider this marvelous cycle, this great matchless dispensation and say: Glorified be God, Lord of the Exalted Throne, for He hath manifested the Sun of Oneness and the Eternal Reality from this lofty and majestic, this mighty and ancient Horizon in such wise that when its ardent penetrating rays shone upon the empty worlds and desolate realms the realities of all things and the universal meanings sprang forth and were renewed through its regenerative power the hidden mysteries of the sciences, which discover the divine realities, were made known, and the guarded, preserved Secret and the Hidden Sign became manifest. For this sublime cycle, this most great Dawntide is the dispensation of truths and mysteries, of the gathering-up of the affairs of the Merciful in the centre of lights, and of the appearance of the hidden treasures in the midmost heart of the worlds of Thy Lord, the Almighty, the Unconstrained. In the reality of drops seas of divine verses surge and in the essence of atoms suns of names and attributes are manifest. In our times scientists are discovering in the strata of rocks secrets that their predecessors could not discover in perspicuous tablets of light. That is because in this most great manifestation, without investigation or deduction the gates of revelation and discovery have been thrown wide open ..."

It deeply needs fixing, imo

I love that tablet, but at the same time know it is a provisional translation. So the time will come when that will happen. Sometimes a translation can give different thoughts.

From the part you quoted "For this sublime cycle, this most great Dawntide is the dispensation of truths and mysteries" Have a look at a scientific advancement graph and be amazed that in the mid 1800's the graph rapidly climbed and still does. Yet in America, someone in the patent office in the mid to late 1800's said they should close down, as all that could be invented, already had been!

Life is full of those little gems of wisdom. Same as the first telegraph message being "What has God Wrought", the day after the Bab declared.

All the best RJM. Most likely this will now complete this OP.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I would offer that is only through Jesus the Christ, ( the Messengers) when we are Born again into the Spirit that is Jesus the Christ.

John 5:37 is one such consideration.

"And the Father Himself, who hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape."

Regards Tony

They want the Islamic Jesus who got it wrong and had to be rescued from death on the cross and taken up to heaven by Allah just in time to prevent him getting himself really killed by men. It's not the Christian belief

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No. This is the Islamic view. The Christ is not annointed by angels. The Christ is lord of all angels, of life and death -- needs no consent of angels or of spirits

Annointed by God RJM. It is Gid that sends forth the Messengers.

The Angels, Saints etc, now known as the 'Concourse of High', are all those holy souls who embraced the Messemgers and gave their lives for their causes.

In turn they are the inspiration behind all the arts and sciences, the most noble aspirations we can have are all manifested from them. We are all part of a perfect system.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

They want the Islamic Jesus who got it wrong and had to be rescued from death on the cross and taken up to heaven by Allah just in time to prevent him getting himself really killed by men. It's not the Christian belief

OK RJM, please consider.

I do not see Islam in the way you choose to. I have found a new way to look at Islam and hear it in a different way.

All the best, Regards Tony.

 

[RJM]

OK RJM, please consider.

I do not see Islam in the way you choose to. I have found a new way to look at Islam and hear it in a different way.

All the best, Regards Tony.

The wisdom of Baha'u'llah does not surpass or equal or come anywhere close to that of Jesus, imo ...

 

[wil]

Jesus and the Bab are prime examples of how far old eyes and old ears will go to silence the new. In the end, it is all about what God offers humanity.

Yes, I am satan ... lol...

Glad you were forwarned I was coming.

Tis definitely worthy to be surrounded by yes men...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yes, I am satan ... lol...

Glad you were forwarned I was coming.

Tis definitely worthy to be surrounded by yes men...

My reply was not referencing you, not sure why you read it that way. I offer the OP is done.

Regards Tony

 

[Ahanu]

Disembodied spirits do not have ears to hear or mouths to speak.

You know this, how? God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, and from a cloud to John at Jesus's baptism.

I feel we are in DeMille's movie The Ten Commandments. Are you really telling me an actual voice issued from a cloud? In what manner did God speak to Moses from a burning bush? What did God's voice sound like? Morgan Freeman? Goh Peik Lin? Are we talking about expressions of an outward reality or an inward reality, @RJM?

He often spoke of the Father too as 'He' and obviously not intended as a human form.

It's a moot point, because the Holy Spirit is depicted as acting through human beings (John 14.7; 2 Sam 23.2; Zech 1.9).

 

[Aupmanyav]

I said to disregard the video if you are not interested. End of story.

Not just the video, but also your posts about a God, his future kingdom, and his prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis and prophecies. None of them have any evidence. And as you know, I look for evidence.

What we could learn 2000 years ago, is not relevant to our current capacity.

What we knew in 19th Century also is many a times not relevant any more. Of course, Bahaollah did not know even what the educated world knew in his time, since he was uneducated. His knowledge was limited to Torah, Injeel and Quran.

 

[RJM]

I feel we are in DeMille's movie The Ten Commandments. Are you really telling me an actual voice issued from a cloud? In what manner did God speak to Moses from a burning bush? What did God's voice sound like? Morgan Freeman? Goh Peik Lin?

Are we talking about expressions of an outward reality or an inward reality, @RJM?


It's a moot point, because the Holy Spirit is depicted as acting through human beings.

But we've just been told it was Baha'u'llah and the Bab speaking from the burning bush?

both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have offered it was them talking to Moses through the burning Bush.

IMO God can speak in words directly to the mind, any time, any place, any faith or non- faith. God can do whatever God wants to do. Don't limit God to your own paradigm. A person doesn't have to be Baha'i to be open to God's voice.

The big difference we have is the Baha'i extension of the Islamic perception of Jesus as (just) a messenger (prophet) possessed by the holy spirit -- although a special one -- opposed to the Christian perception of Jesus the Christ as far more than that.

I don't believe the Baha'u'llah speaks a message superior to that of Jesus the Christ.

I do not believe it's going to be necessary for everyone to lose their religion and rely unquestioningly upon the writings of Baha'u'llah and decisions of the Baha'i council for the next 1000 yrs until a new Abrahamic messenger comes along to surpass Baha'u'llah -- as well as Jesus, Moses and Muhammad (pbuh) -- to say nothing of eastern faiths.

I don't think it helps that the voluminous Baha'i writings are phrased in very difficult and actually, to me, pretentious so-called olde English -- and that Baha'i spokesmen seem to become irritated and defensive when asked to explain in simpler terms ...

 

[Ahanu]

But we've just been told it was Baha'u'llah and the Bab speaking from the burning bush?

Why get caught up in names?

Baha'u'llah, Bab = Paraclete/Holy Spirit/Word of God/Primal Will/The Angel of the Lord/Universal Intellect/The Throne

Many names, one reality. All the qualities of perfection are contained therein.

“The first thing created by God was the Intellect; The first thing created by God was my Light.”
– Prophet Muhammad

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

This is a good resource to see how God's Covenants work.

 

[Thomas]

"The first thing created by God was the Intellect; The first thing created by God was my Light.”
– Prophet Muhammad

I have been discussing the Uncreated

 

[Thomas]

When the talk speaks of unity but conceals a discreet supremacy ... if you don't agree with us, you're wrong. Unity under our banner.

I do wish that at the very least we could adhere to the Golden Rule:
Please don't demean me as a way of promoting your own views.

Walk with me, not over me.

Yes, this thread has sadly run its course, dialogue is only possible up to a certain limit. New Eyes, New Ears, Same Rules Apply.

 

[RJM]

Removed

 

[RJM]

Let’s accept the judgement of @Tone Bristow-Stagg also @wil and @Thomas that this thread has run its course. However I am interested to know more about Baha’i beliefs in plain words that don’t redirect to Bahai tracts and scriptures.

I have taken the liberty of starting a new thread in the Belief and Spirituality* section titled ‘What is the Baha’i message in simple words”
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20288/

The thread can be removed or retitled or moved to another section at peoples’ discretion?

*Moved to Baha'i forum

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I do wish that at the very least we could adhere to the Golden Rule:
Please don't demean me as a way of promoting your own views.

Walk with me, not over me.

That is indeed the quandary we face. The Quandary we all face when God gives a Message

The Bible does indeed contains advice of righteous living, this golden rule is found in all scriptures. When we are talking about new concepts for a global all embracing Love and Unity, it is acknowledged the Bible contains that guidance. The question then asked, is why it did not achieve the unity of humanity?

The answer may very well be that Jesusthe Christ said He had much more to say unto us and that a day would come when the sheep of the other folds would become one flock under on Shepherd.

The hardest choice we have as a soul, that is either brought up in, or found a faith, is to consider that we have more to see and more to hear. Thus a Baha’i is no different.

Regards Tony