World events are preparing us for peace.

[wil]

We.still break eggs to make omelettes

 

[badger]

Iran Human Rights Watch:

Iranian law denies freedom of religion to Baha'is and discriminates against them. Authorities continue to arrest and prosecute members of the Baha'i faith on vague national security charges and close down or suspend licenses for businesses owned by them.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/iran#:~:text=Iranian law denies freedom of,for businesses owned by them.

National security charges .......
True?
False?

So you know ..?
OK.

Why didn't you focus upon the whole of that article? ....... :-
The government also discriminates against other religious minorities, including Sunni Muslims, and restricts cultural and political activities among the country’s Azeri, Kurdish, Arab, and Baluch ethnic minorities.

....... The Iranian government is an Islamic Theocracy. But as can be seen from the above report, Bahais in Iran are mostly business people, middle class, who are even released from prison sentences to home restrictions where.....they can run their businesses. On this forum we have read about a Bahai lady who was employed as Sales Manager....in a Muslim own company! She lost the job because she broke part of the contract, I wonder what that might have been? Bahais in Iran are left alone so long as they keep to the laws.......

If that is what 'Bahai friends persecuted every day' is all about, then ok. By the way, the original 'Bahai friends executed every day' claim is so old that I've heard it many times through my life, and middle-class Iranians speak English vert well, you know.

 

[badger]

The important thing here is that the Baha'i acknowledges that there is more than one group targeted, that is plain and simple. Yet I suspect this will constantly be neglected to be mentioned.

Can you post an example up, please, from a Bahai website?

The official reports are available, the eyewitness reports are recorded by those people, the documents that are written to target the Baha'i are also available.

So no one would have told untruths OB, there is timelines on all those reports. One thing is for sure, Iran has a great future foretold, I see that in the future their research into the history will uncover much of the evidence.

Bahai was so busy outlawing honest translators that any evidence emerging might be from yet more honest translators.
That's how names like Juan Cole, Wallbridge etc got outlawed.

Also the error that happened on this forum was cleared up and explained, so why did you continue with that? I had not said anything about that and would have not said anything, until now, as you did use it again as an error.

Regards Tony

Poor English?
Yeah?
No comment.

 

[badger]

We.still break eggs to make omelettes

The thread title reminds me of Chamberlain's 'Peace in our Time' speech.

 

[Cino]

Peace will only come thru discussion of harder topics than this.

Word.

 

[Ahanu]

I don't trust the Bahai claims, RJM. They used to tell about mass murders, genocide, daily executions and when I found out that it was untrue I stopped listening. That was fifty years ago, not last week.

National security charges .......
True?
False?

So you know ..?
OK.

Why didn't you focus upon the whole of that article? ....... :-
The government also discriminates against other religious minorities, including Sunni Muslims, and restricts cultural and political activities among the country’s Azeri, Kurdish, Arab, and Baluch ethnic minorities.

....... The Iranian government is an Islamic Theocracy. But as can be seen from the above report, Bahais in Iran are mostly business people, middle class, who are even released from prison sentences to home restrictions where.....they can run their businesses. On this forum we have read about a Bahai lady who was employed as Sales Manager....in a Muslim own company! She lost the job because she broke part of the contract, I wonder what that might have been? Bahais in Iran are left alone so long as they keep to the laws.......

If that is what 'Bahai friends persecuted every day' is all about, then ok. By the way, the original 'Bahai friends executed every day' claim is so old that I've heard it many times through my life, and middle-class Iranians speak English vert well, you know.

Bahais and Babis have been there for nearly 200 years. Millions of them. Not as many as Christians but they are left to live and work just fine, so long as they don't break laws.

Would you listen to non-Baha'i claims then? I'll quote a non-Baha'i named Akbar Ganji:

"The recent ruling of Ayatollah Montazeri [in 2008] on the citizen rights of the Baha'is is regarded as a step forward within the mentality of the Shi'a clergy. This ruling provides the liberal and fair-minded with a chance to evaluate the attitude of the Iranians, the religious supreme legal authorities, the learned divines, the clergy, the religious intellectuals, and the government of the Islamic Republic towards the Baha'is and to review their behavior to that community. This very ruling, in itself, speaks of deplorable brutalities such as deprivation from education, barring from employment, prohibition to hold religious activities, detention and imprisonment, pressure to recant, and finally death. Two examples follow:

1. In his book Sar o tah yek karbas, Jamalzadeh writes that when he was a child passing through the bazaar in Isfahan, he remembers incidents when suddenly someone would shout: 'Babi, Babi'. People would then pour out a barrel of kerosene on the victim, and set him on fire.
2. During the early days of the Revolution, an elderly lady, the sister of one of the renowned intellectuals of the nation, was beheaded under the pretext of her belief in the Baha'i Faith.
​

If an irrationally hostile view did not exist, and were it not for the prevailing inhumane conduct towards the Baha'is, such a ruling would not have been necessary, nor would it have been viewed as a courageous act by one of the highest Shi'i clerics. Such a move is only regarded as a heroic one by those who are aware of the mentality of the Shi'a authorities."​

 

[Ahanu]

Bahai was so busy outlawing honest translators that any evidence emerging might be from yet more honest translators.
That's how names like Juan Cole, Wallbridge etc got outlawed.

*Opens @badger's dictionary, looks up the word honest, and sees a picture of Juan Cole, the embodiment of honesty*

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Can you post an example up, please, from a Bahai website?

https://www.bic.org/focus-areas/human-rights

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Bahais in Iran are left alone so long as they keep to the laws.......

What a lot of twaddle.

This is toxic for all participating. I am sorry I offered a message on peace when there are so few after peace.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

What a lot of twaddle.

This is toxic for all participating. I am sorry I offered a message on peace when there are so few after peace.

Regards Tony

I do think @wil put his finger on it.

If we're not able to discuss difficult topics in this small circle without throwing up our hands in passive-aggressive gestures of "no-one wants to talk about peace, sorry for even mentioning it", then how on earth can we expect humanity to tackle even thornier questions on a larger scale?

I never heard any of you Baha'i here acknowledge that what Badger experienced with the Baha'i community of his late wife was bad, that even in Baha'i communities bad things happen, and how you intend to deal with such events. They don't disappear when you close your eyes to them.

Peace, let alone world peace, will never happen by ignoring or hushing up things.

Denial is the seed of discord.

 

[RJM]

National security charges .......
True?
False?

So you know ..?
OK.

Why didn't you focus upon the whole of that article? ....... :-
The government also discriminates against other religious minorities, including Sunni Muslims, and restricts cultural and political activities among the country’s Azeri, Kurdish, Arab, and Baluch ethnic minorities.

....... The Iranian government is an Islamic Theocracy. But as can be seen from the above report, Bahais in Iran are mostly business people, middle class, who are even released from prison sentences to home restrictions where.....they can run their businesses. On this forum we have read about a Bahai lady who was employed as Sales Manager....in a Muslim own company! She lost the job because she broke part of the contract, I wonder what that might have been? Bahais in Iran are left alone so long as they keep to the laws.......

If that is what 'Bahai friends persecuted every day' is all about, then ok. By the way, the original 'Bahai friends executed every day' claim is so old that I've heard it many times through my life, and middle-class Iranians speak English vert well, you know.

Not all LGBT people are angels, not all women are angels, obviously not all Baha'i are angels. Other groups lobby for their rights and bring attention to their mistreatment in Islamic states. But the Baha'i are devious and hypocritical when they do it?

 

[Cino]

Not all LGBT people are angels, not all women are angels, obviously not all Baha'i are angels. Other groups lobby for their rights and bring attention to their mistreatment in Islamic states. But the Baha'i are devious and hypocritical when they do it?

Disclaimer: I admit this is touching something in me, old memories of past hurts in a different religious group. Thus I am responding where Badger is addressed, but it comes from my reactions to this thread, I don't presume to speak for him.

To me, it is the strong tendency to hush up, even deny, that anything could be amiss in the Baha'i community, which is causing those old memories to resurface. It is not the fact that other groups are also imperfect or even harmful, but this withdrawal, as I perceive it, to a posture of hurt innocence, not even acknowledging the problems that are mentioned. Not being heard, or just as bad, being treated to a metaphorical "I said sooorry (rolling eyes)".

That other groups are not composed entirely of angels does not mean I can insist, by silencing or drowning out those who speak up, that my own group is indeed composed of angels.

Ok, I think I got it out now.

 

[RJM]

To me, it is the strong tendency to hush up, even deny, that anything could be amiss in the Baha'i community, which is causing those old memories to resurface. It is not the fact that other groups are also imperfect or even harmful, but this withdrawal, as I perceive it, to a posture of hurt innocence, not even acknowledging the problems that are mentioned

Good point

I get this too, from these threads. It's all peace on earth and gardens of flowers and billowing oceans of bliss. Butter wouldn't melt in my mouth. But I don't think it's justified to deny the persecution of Baha'i in Iran as fake news either. No more to add, really?

 

[badger]

Would you listen to non-Baha'i claims then? I'll quote a non-Baha'i named Akbar Ganji:

"The recent ruling of Ayatollah Montazeri [in 2008] on the citizen rights of the Baha'is is regarded as a step forward within the mentality of the Shi'a clergy. This ruling provides the liberal and fair-minded with a chance to evaluate the attitude of the Iranians, the religious supreme legal authorities, the learned divines, the clergy, the religious intellectuals, and the government of the Islamic Republic towards the Baha'is and to review their behavior to that community. This very ruling, in itself, speaks of deplorable brutalities such as deprivation from education, barring from employment, prohibition to hold religious activities, detention and imprisonment, pressure to recant, and finally death. Two examples follow:

1. In his book Sar o tah yek karbas, Jamalzadeh writes that when he was a child passing through the bazaar in Isfahan, he remembers incidents when suddenly someone would shout: 'Babi, Babi'. People would then pour out a barrel of kerosene on the victim, and set him on fire.
2. During the early days of the Revolution, an elderly lady, the sister of one of the renowned intellectuals of the nation, was beheaded under the pretext of her belief in the Baha'i Faith.
​

If an irrationally hostile view did not exist, and were it not for the prevailing inhumane conduct towards the Baha'is, such a ruling would not have been necessary, nor would it have been viewed as a courageous act by one of the highest Shi'i clerics. Such a move is only regarded as a heroic one by those who are aware of the mentality of the Shi'a authorities."​

You've quoted a story from the 19th century...is that right?

 

[badger]

*Opens @badger's dictionary, looks up the word honest, and sees a picture of Juan Cole, the embodiment of honesty*

Juan was a faithful Baha'i and was dumped by Bahai, I believe?

Where do you live? I live in UK.

 

[badger]

https://www.bic.org/focus-areas/human-rights

Regards Tony

I was expecting to see your example of Baha'i supporting some minority somewhere in the world other than Baha'i.

 

[badger]

What a lot of twaddle.

This is toxic for all participating. I am sorry I offered a message on peace when there are so few after peace.

Regards Tony

I will give you the chair, Tony.
Please research and show an example of a really inhumane act against a Baha'i in Iran in ,say, August or September this year .

That's got to be a fair request. In the UK press this week's we have heard about a woman who was arrested, detained and hit on the head by an official....she died. We hear of public executions frequently.

Bad things happen in Iran (they do here as well) so an example of an atrocity against a Baha'i should be there, and I will read about it.

 

[badger]

Disclaimer: I admit this is touching something in me, old memories of past hurts in a different religious group. Thus I am responding where Badger is addressed, but it comes from my reactions to this thread, I don't presume to speak for him.

To me, it is the strong tendency to hush up, even deny, that anything could be amiss in the Baha'i community, which is causing those old memories to resurface. It is not the fact that other groups are also imperfect or even harmful, but this withdrawal, as I perceive it, to a posture of hurt innocence, not even acknowledging the problems that are mentioned. Not being heard, or just as bad, being treated to a metaphorical "I said sooorry (rolling eyes)".

That other groups are not composed entirely of angels does not mean I can insist, by silencing or drowning out those who speak up, that my own group is indeed composed of angels.

Ok, I think I got it out now.

Hi Cino..... Naughty and bad people seem to exist in every and any group that I know, regardless of wealth, culture, class, career, job, religion, authority.......
In 1991 (Margate, Kent) a thief hurt me as I arrested him . When the police came to take him from a first floor holding room they saw my bruised forehead and so they handcuffed him hands-behind and then chucked him down the stairs. Blooming England.

I'll bet that the religious and moral police in Iran are or can be terrors, because like those Margate police there feel self righteous, guided by God. I'm not taking a holiday in Iran ...ever ...

But Baha'i has lived there since the beginning, has jobs, livings, has the opportunity to home school children like bahais have homeschooled here in England . There will be Baha'i criminals too, as there have been here.

But I don't think that Baha'i is the only focus of Iranian authorities, the Kurds and Baluchis get it bad, I just wish some of them could be reading these threads.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So Baha'u'llah had a written Covernant and appointed Abdul'baha and everything Abdul'baha gave us, is also of God. In turn Abdul'baha was given authority to appoint a successor, and Abdul'baha appointed Shoghi Effendi. All this is the continued line of Revelation from God.

This is called nepotism in India. Unfortunate that Shoghi did not have any child for some reason.

 

[badger]

This is called nepotism in India. Unfortunate that Shoghi did not have any child for some reason.

Brothers, sons, wives and others, so many were caste aside in the continued line of revelation.
And then so many of the closest and ardent followers were discredited and outlawed. I seem to remember that one of Shoghi's closest followers was Charles Mason-Remy who believed that he was a natural successor to Shoghi, and he got outlawed for that.